Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Prettyfly on March 26, 2006, 06:53:48 PM
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It would be far better to let people take two sockeye and go home then to let them sit there all day hooking fish, making them bleed, dragging them up on shore and kicking back into the river. I know for sure that at very least two of the fish I released each of those day will not make it to the spawning grounds.
..... from another post
Guys we pay to fish, they should let us fish if the fish are there! It is a meat fishery so we should accept that wether we bounce, floss etc
Thats from a thread in the anglingbc forum. These are your fellow sport fishermen talking freely. Trying to do the research on fishing techniques and I find all of this.
It seems flossing is a 'legal' poaching technique taught even by guides. It is my understanding that flossing is snagging. Ths poster mentioned that this was common practice among the 50 or so sport fisherpersons along that stretch.
I'm just at a loss when thinking about the flack native fishers get when so called 'sport fishers' and professional guides are virtually doing the same thing -fishing illegally.
Why are these guides (one mentioned was T&A on the fraser) being condoned while native fishers are so harshly critizised?
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PLease, not another flossing/snagging thread!!! These never end well!! ::) :-\
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You'd probably be better off just typing in flossing on a forum search and see what you come up with. Everything that could possibly be said reguaring this issue has been said many times over.
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Too early for this subject.May be later in the summer,like august ;)
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This horse has been beat a million times before. ::)
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Guiding is about making money period. If your clients don't get fish, they don't come back or send their freinds. So what do you expect?
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I really think P/F is talking about what has been said in the " Criticail year for sport fishing right's" thread and is looking for ammo.
I am not looking for ammo but thanks for the feeble attempt at reading my mind.
I'm just shocked. I don't understand how people can fight so bitterly but seemingly turn blind eyes towards their own. And I'm not talking about whether some of you consider flossing AKA snagging legal or not but the fact that a community - no matter what it's binding force, be it race, religion or in this case sport, will turn a blind eye whilst pointing fingers.
In reference to the critical year post - I have petitioned my community to step forward, there were loads of posts referenced when I did a search on FWR and came across the Cheam court case last summer. I had heard of only the end result last summer and hadn't fully realized the full impact it may have had. Regardless I don't care to see anyone get screwed and the the acts of some of the lower mainland bands is only reflecting AND hurting the rest of us. Some sportfishermen are right racists and need a punch in the face but not all.
And instead of trying to start 'civil war' maybe we should be setting our own straight before pointing fingers. And if you must, keep banging your heads against a wall you aren't going to break. You have to accept aboriginal rights - because of your forefathers attempt at genocide, and blatant theft, this is the price you must pay because the government must abide by the Human Rights commission.
And though some may see it as short lived, education is key to every battle. That's why the generals rarely go into battle. As long as there is a long standing injustice, conflict is going to occure. Are there no scholars in sport fisherpersons to realize the key is not violence, be it physical or vocal but education?
Some people are so hell bent on proving others wrong, bent on fighting tooth and nail to protect what is theirs. Tooth and nail until someone is broken.
We don't need to resort to that. It just takes people understanding people. And everyone needs to try.
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Pretty Fly, if it helps, the Fraser Valley fisheries dialogue is still ongoing between the Upper Fraser River Sportfishing Advisory Committee and the Fraser Valley First Nations (mainly the Chehalis, Skwah, Yale. Cheam is currently not participating). I'm one of the participants in these dialogue sessions.
I wasn't planning to get into this discussion as it takes way too much time to cover the details of these issues if I start posting, my time is not very available right now. I'm glad you are actively posting as it is refreshing to have the point of views from the other side. Keep in mind this is a sportfishing discussion forum, so generally the readership and participants are here because they want to sportfish and look for opportunities to sportfishing. Therefore the views can obviously be biased and should never be taken as mission statements that represent the entire sportfishing community.
Just to quickly summarize up some of the items that I wish to point out:
Not all anglers turn away from the existance of problems in the Fraser River sockeye fishery and its implications on the overall resource in BC.
Not all, including me, wish to see the rights of fishing and fish sales of First Nations be taken away.
I wish to see more transparency in the management of the FN, sport and commercial fishery by DFO.
I wish to see better escapement estimates by having a third party that monitors and counts the number of fish harvested in all sectors. We harvest one stock, yet we manage it independently as two different stocks at times. Each sector blames the other on the absence of conservation measures. Both should develop a uniform management (not talking about the number of fish taken. People should face it, First Nations have priority on stock harvest and are entitled to a certain number of fish) so information is better shared.
I wish to see both the sportfishing sector and First Nations work together cooperatively in projects that can be beneficial to both. After all, we are utilizing the same resource and we ought to ensure its sustainability instead of fighting for the last piece of it as you brought up earlier.
:)
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I feel the need to highlight my words for Bill, he seems to skim while reading and then bases his judgements inaccurately
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I am not looking for ammo but thanks for the feeble attempt at reading my mind.
I'm just shocked. I don't understand how people can fight so bitterly but seemingly turn blind eyes towards their own. And I'm not talking about whether some of you consider flossing AKA snagging legal or not but the fact that a community - no matter what it's binding force, be it race, religion or in this case sport, will turn a blind eye whilst pointing fingers.
In reference to the critical year post - I have petitioned my community to step forward, there were loads of posts referenced when I did a search on FWR and came across the Cheam court case last summer. I had heard of only the end result last summer and hadn't fully realized the full impact it may have had. Regardless I don't care to see anyone get screwed and the the acts of some of the lower mainland bands is only reflecting AND hurting the rest of us. Some sportfishermen are right racists and need a punch in the face but not all.
And instead of trying to start 'civil war' maybe we should (Bill this is an ALL inclusive statement) be setting our own straight before pointing fingers. And if you must, keep banging your heads against a wall you aren't going to break. You have to accept aboriginal rights - because of your forefathers attempt at genocide, and blatant theft, this is the price you must pay because the government must abide by the Human Rights commission.
And though some may see it as short lived, education is key to every battle. That's why the generals rarely go into battle. As long as there is a long standing injustice, conflict is going to occure. Are there no scholars in sport fisherpersons to realize the key is not violence, be it physical or vocal but education?
Some people are so hell bent on proving others wrong, bent on fighting tooth and nail to protect what is theirs. Tooth and nail until someone is broken.
We don't need to resort to that. It just takes people understanding people. And everyone needs to try.
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Please read it again Bill and tell me where I assumed anything? I didn't even type the words pinks or sockeye in my last post. Your animosity for first nation people is obvious but to resort to hateful name calling of certain fish species?
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I think that everyone need to take a deep breath and think about all the good things that we have in front of us!!!! ;) That includes all the fishing that is available and will be available this year and for years to come!!! Thanks to people who do care and go about protecting EVERYONES resource that we all use. Hats off to those like Chris, Rod and many others the take their precious time to do what they can.
Prettyfly, you keep saying that things will never get done if people just keep bickering back and forth. If you believe this, then what are you doing. At somepoint someone just has to be the bigger person and walk away!!! I believe that you are trying to do some good, but how are people going to take you if all they see is you coming back at people, when you could just ignore it and move on!!! I would respect the person that just moved on a lot more!!
Bill, I don't believe that this is doing any good, I don't know you, so it wouldn't be right of me to say much, so how about just tone it down a bit and I think that you will be better received as well. It is obvious you care, but is stating the things you did, in that way, doing any good?
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You're right.
I was being defensive as this was the second incident of someone twisting words.
Just a little frustrating.
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It would be far better to let people take two sockeye and go home then to let them sit there all day hooking fish, making them bleed, dragging them up on shore and kicking back into the river. I know for sure that at very least two of the fish I released each of those day will not make it to the spawning grounds.
..... from another post
Guys we pay to fish, they should let us fish if the fish are there! It is a meat fishery so we should accept that wether we bounce, floss etc
Thats from a thread in the anglingbc forum. These are your fellow sport fishermen talking freely. Trying to do the research on fishing techniques and I find all of this.
It seems flossing is a 'legal' poaching technique taught even by guides. It is my understanding that flossing is snagging. Ths poster mentioned that this was common practice among the 50 or so sport fisherpersons along that stretch.
I'm just at a loss when thinking about the flack native fishers get when so called 'sport fishers' and professional guides are virtually doing the same thing -fishing illegally.
Why are these guides (one mentioned was T&A on the fraser) being condoned while native fishers are so harshly critizised?
This topic has been beaten up and and down and backwards a hundred times..... in the end it is always the same conclusion... Flossing for salmon on the Fraser river and for that matter any river is at this point a legal way to fish as long as you are using a single barbless hook!!!!!! thats it!!! it aint illegal and until it is people are going to continue to fish this way... you are comparing to something that is illegal.. it is illegal for natives to catch and sell their fish.... so lets have a look at what we have discovered
Natives catching salmon for the reason of sale and profit to the general public = ILLEGAL
Sports fishermen flossing for slamon with a single barbless hook = LEGAL
until the laws are changed that is how it is.
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I think it might also be prudent to add that, although a "legal" technique, most sportfishermen, at least the ones I know or have spoken with, regrard "flossing" as an unsportsmanlike method, I would even go so far as to presume many of us have a great deal of disdain for its use, and most of the time, make an effort to inform the offending "fisherman" that it is NOT the proper way to sportfish...
There is no excuse for flossing, and it is a recurring seasonal problem that has yet to be solved... >:( :( :-[
Sorry, let me ammend that somewhat, if someone is not interested in sportfishing for the pure sport of it, but more in the harvest of fish for eating, etc...and they are fishing for sockeye, then flossing would be the most proficient manner in which to hook multiple fish in relatively short periods of time. I myself did fish for sockeye some years ago, I flossed, and found a great deal of success. I no longer use this technique, nor do I fish for sockeye anymore, and I do so because it was a choice that was made as my understanding and appreciation for the sport evolved over the years. So I should not condemn flossing, as I myself have done it. I find now that the challenge of enticing the fish to bite your hook of its own volition, rather than "biting the fish with your hook" when it doesn't know what's coming, is far more rewarding to me... so I guess the worst non smokers are ex smokers right? My apologies for my earlier intolerant statement, we can all be converted!
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I think it might also be prudent to add that, although a "legal" technique, most sportfishermen, at least the ones I know or have spoken with, regrard "flossing" as an unsportsmanlike method, I would even go so far as to presume many of us have a great deal of disdain for its use, and most of the time, make an effort to inform the offending "fisherman" that it is NOT the proper way to sportfish...
There is no excuse for flossing, and it is a recurring seasonal problem that has yet to be solved... >:( :( :-[
my personal opinion is that in a fishery such as Sockeye which is known as a meat fishery flossing is ok..... when I see it on the Vedder or any other small system is pisses me off... when I see guys ripping their lines at the end of every drift it pisses me off and I will let them know.... but as I said before until they make flossing an illegal way of harvesting fish people will continue to fish this way... I don't think that the leader length will change anything.. I have seen people fishing with only 3-4 foot leader and still get a fish on every second drift.....
I used to floss for salmon... some people on this site introduced me to Bar Fishing and now that is my preffered way to fish the Fraser....
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Hoping to get into a 10 footer this year.
Wow, big apetite. ;D It may very well be a good season as signs of eulachons have been reported in the Fraser Valley (unusually early, but an opening is not expected as mentioned in another thread). :)
Just to point out a couple of things again based on what I've read in a couple of threads recently. Posters' opinions do not represent the view of this website. Discussion forum is utilized by anyone who has a computer so disagreement is a common occurance. Some people (mostly who I've talked to in person) tend to mistaken that Fishing with Rod is an organization. It's not. It does not have a mission statement. It is not pro or anti First Nations, pro or anti flossing, pro or anti bass, pro or anti bait.
That being said, I do read just about every single post on the forum and if a concern that needs to be brought up, I will do so through my DFO contacts and at related meetings. My colleagues from various organizations also read the material posted on this discussion forum so your concerns are not lost in the cyber space.
To really make a difference, I encourage everyone to join an existing sportfishing group, club, association that can represent your interests and views in the best possible way.
Lastly, I would like to suggest that instead of continuously pointing out unpleasant sights that you come across while fishing, try developing solutions.
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Hey Thickrick I'm the same as you in that I used to floss but now bar fishing is the way to go. Just finished getting everything ready for the up coming season and sturgeon gear has been ready for a couple of weeks. Hoping to get into a 10 footer this year.
sounds awesome... I can't wait to wrestle dinosaurs.. I am going to be doing it from shore though..... should still be fun
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Fish forever WOW!!!!! what an amazing fish!! :o :o that must have been an awesome experience shaking hands with that brute!!! I hope I can get into something like that this year .. that pic gets me stoked!! ;D
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When can you fish for sturgeon? Any time of year or only specific times? Where can you fish for them other than the fraser?
Do you get many women fishing for them? I bet the larger ones would be damn hard. Do you have some kind of machine helping you or is all rod?
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When can you fish for sturgeon? Any time of year or only specific times? Where can you fish for them other than the fraser?
Do you get many women fishing for them? I bet the larger ones would be damn hard. Do you have some kind of machine helping you or is all rod?
Usually starting when the water warms up. Anywhere in the Fraser really, everyone has their favorite spots.The fishing from what I have seen slows a bit during early summer, then picks back up again in late July and August and into September. They are in Rivers and Lakes throughout the States. Only seen a few women fishing for them, yes the larger ones a rather hard to fight, but it can be done effectively with the right gear and no, there is no winch or machine, it is the rod the fish and your arm strength!!! ;)
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No closure on sturgeon fishing but total catch and release.
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Ya but where else in BC can you fish for them?
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No closure on sturgeon fishing but total catch and release.
The Columbia is closed to sturgeon fishing.
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Good posts Rodney and Ribwart. 8)
Enjoyed reading opinions on the issue, and enjoyed even more it didnt end up in a mud slinging fest!!
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Well....if I were a flosser (I'm not), I'd be kind of embarassed to be part of something so controversial in the eyes of the general angling public. As a matter of fact, I don't fish around flossers..and if I were involved in something so controversial, would cease to proceed to fish that way.
At any rate, I find it unacceptable that flossers seem to only have ONE defense..and that is...it's legal. Yes, you're right, it's legal, but by the traditional definition of angling, it's not legitimized by the majority of the angling public and any conservationst. Just 'cause it's legal, doesn't mean it's right. Laws are subject to change and so are regulations. Perhaps it's time the flossing issue be reexamined by the powers that be. Furthermore, one of the interesting things about flossers is their refusal to fish by other methods (perhaps from lack of knowledge or commitment to success by fishing using other techniques)
Just 'cuz it's legal has never meant it's right. Look at it this way...it's legal to go as fast as you want on the Autobahn, but is it right to endanger the lives of other individuals on the road where you so choose to haphazardly through prudence and good judgement to the wind?
It's legal for companies to make millions of dollars...but does that mean companies should have no obligations to their communities, people, and the enviroment?
At any rate, that just my 2 cents worth and I'm sure I'm going to have some foul mouthed flossers have some less than complementary opinions and words for me..but so be it. It's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it. I may not agree with what flossers may say as justification for their methods, but just remember, I am just one person of the large majority who despises and has contempt for individuals using less than honorable methods of "angling" and then cower under the black letter words of a regulation which so desperately needs to be changed.
IMHO.
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Well....if I were a flosser (I'm not), I'd be kind of embarassed to be part of something so controversial in the eyes of the general angling public. As a matter of fact, I don't fish around flossers..and if I were involved in something so controversial, would cease to proceed to fish that way.
At any rate, I find it unacceptable that flossers seem to only have ONE defense..and that is...it's legal. Yes, you're right, it's legal, but by the traditional definition of angling, it's not legitimized by the majority of the angling public and any conservationst. Just 'cause it's legal, doesn't mean it's right. Laws are subject to change and so are regulations. Perhaps it's time the flossing issue be reexamined by the powers that be. Furthermore, one of the interesting things about flossers is their refusal to fish by other methods (perhaps from lack of knowledge or commitment to success by fishing using other techniques)
Just 'cuz it's legal has never meant it's right. Look at it this way...it's legal to go as fast as you want on the Autobahn, but is it right to endanger the lives of other individuals on the road where you so choose to haphazardly through prudence and good judgement to the wind?
It's legal for companies to make millions of dollars...but does that mean companies should have no obligations to their communities, people, and the enviroment?
At any rate, that just my 2 cents worth and I'm sure I'm going to have some foul mouthed flossers have some less than complementary opinions and words for me..but so be it. It's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it. I may not agree with what flossers may say as justification for their methods, but just remember, I am just one person of the large majority who despises and has contempt for individuals using less than honorable methods of "angling" and then cower under the black letter words of a regulation which so desperately needs to be changed.
IMHO.
I am sure you will find that most people on this site feel almost the same as you except!!!!!!
Sockeye fishery on the Fraser....
other than that fishery I totally agree with you.. I think there are probably a few people on this site that take part in that fishery...
ending your post with that comment Foulmouthed Flossers is a sure fire way to upset a few... despise??? contempt??? strong words for someone who is taking part in a LEGAL fishery.. just my two cents..
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"I'm going to have some foul mouthed flossers "
Not likely, as people who floss probably don't have a foul mouth or bad breath. It's those self rightous types you got to look out for ;). They may be too busy telling everyone what's right to floss. :-X
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yes birdman, that is likely a very daunting and difficult task at best, but I suspect the difference in techniques is likely lost on those around you in those circumstances....
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Birdman...if you see that beek named Marcel, give him the "hot pocket" for me.
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Well....if I were a flosser (I'm not), I'd be kind of embarassed to be part of something so controversial in the eyes of the general angling public. As a matter of fact, I don't fish around flossers..and if I were involved in something so controversial, would cease to proceed to fish that way.
At any rate, I find it unacceptable that flossers seem to only have ONE defense..and that is...it's legal. Yes, you're right, it's legal, but by the traditional definition of angling, it's not legitimized by the majority of the angling public and any conservationst. Just 'cause it's legal, doesn't mean it's right. Laws are subject to change and so are regulations. Perhaps it's time the flossing issue be reexamined by the powers that be. Furthermore, one of the interesting things about flossers is their refusal to fish by other methods (perhaps from lack of knowledge or commitment to success by fishing using other techniques)
Just 'cuz it's legal has never meant it's right. Look at it this way...it's legal to go as fast as you want on the Autobahn, but is it right to endanger the lives of other individuals on the road where you so choose to haphazardly through prudence and good judgement to the wind?
It's legal for companies to make millions of dollars...but does that mean companies should have no obligations to their communities, people, and the enviroment?
At any rate, that just my 2 cents worth and I'm sure I'm going to have some foul mouthed flossers have some less than complementary opinions and words for me..but so be it. It's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it. I may not agree with what flossers may say as justification for their methods, but just remember, I am just one person of the large majority who despises and has contempt for individuals using less than honorable methods of "angling" and then cower under the black letter words of a regulation which so desperately needs to be changed.
IMHO.
I am sure you will find that most people on this site feel almost the same as you except!!!!!!
Sockeye fishery on the Fraser....
other than that fishery I totally agree with you.. I think there are probably a few people on this site that take part in that fishery...
ending your post with that comment Foulmouthed Flossers is a sure fire way to upset a few... despise??? contempt??? strong words for someone who is taking part in a LEGAL fishery.. just my two cents..
ThickRick..thanks for the voice of support. Question though.I know that sockeye can be quite trying at times to get them to bite (they DO bite on occasion contrary to popular belief among many flossers) but I wondering why the "meat" fishery should warrant a change in "angling" technique? Do sockeye because of their "hard to get to bite...except when flossing" warrant a change in technique? Are you suggesting that "quality of taste and flesh" warrants a technique such as "flossing"? I sportfish for salmon and occasionally take a salmon for the table so technically that makes me a "meat" fisher too....but does that mean that "flossing" is warranted?
Just curious..and thought I'd ask...for if food was the issue...we've got TONS of pinks available for food and Save On has 'em for like $2 a fish. I just ate the last salmon in my freezer..which happened to be a Pink that was gushing blood from the gills so we bonked it. We poached it, and let me tell you, it sure was tasty and flavorful...even after having been frozen...and it was excellently preserved.
Hope everyone has bought their new licenses anyways...flossers included.