Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rodney on March 29, 2006, 11:52:05 AM
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Seven months for ramming DFO boat
By Mike Chouinard
A man charged in connection with ramming a federal fisheries boat last summer was sentenced in provincial court after pleading guilty Friday to various charges.
Ian Travis Douglas, 30, received a total of seven months conditional sentence from Judge John Lenaghan.
Last summer, Douglas was involved with a couple of confrontations with fisheries officers near the Cheam reserve. On Aug. 8, he was on a boat near the Agassiz-Rosedale bridge when he and a man in another boat were approached by fisheries officers in a boat. Fisheries officers spotted the two boats after they appeared to be fishing illegally with a drift net.
"The boats approached the DFO boat and started to circle it," Crown counsel Andrea Ormiston said.
The driver of another boat, who is also facing charges, then cut in between the DFO boat and a black boat, which Douglas was driving. Soon after, Douglas rammed the DFO boat's stern, missing several officers by estimates of about one metre or less. While Douglas was
charged with several offences, Ormiston said the charge for the dangerous operation of a water vessel was the most serious, as it jeopardized the safety of the fishing officers.
"This was an intentional ramming of the boat," she said.
Douglas was also charged after a confrontation with police officers at the Cheam reserve 10 days after the ramming incident. Police were attempting to arrest another man subject to warrant. The man called for help and Douglas intervened.
"Mr. Douglas was verbally instructed to stop by both of the officers....Mr. Douglas physically resisted arrest."
He spat in the face of one of the officers, who also sustained a wrist injury in the altercation.
As well as the Criminal Code charges, Douglas was facing charges from a number of Federal Fisheries Act violations dating back to 2003. Crown counsel Finn Jensen outlined a number of cases where Douglas was fishing without a licence, during closures or with a drift nets at a time when they were not permitted.
Both Ormiston and Jensen were looking for jail time, but Douglas' lawyer Thomas Hara hoped his client would be given credit for time-served.
Douglas's mother, who spoke prior to sentencing, and Hara said much of his conduct was fuelled by drug use, a habit that started when he was 20. When arrested last August, he was found carrying 0.7 grams of crystal meth. Since he has been in custody, he has kicked the habit, has been accepted by a day program and put on 60 pounds since his arrest.
"He's extremely sorry about this and he hopes to turn his life around."
As a mitigating circumstance, Hara cited a 2002 protocol between the federal fisheries department and the Cheam that set out a practice whereby officers would keep their distance if they witnessed violations on the river. "Somehow that protocol has now been abandoned," he said.
The judge did acknowledge the longstanding dispute over rights to the river and the Cheam band's relationship with the federal government. However, he did not buy the aboriginal rights argument as a defence for all of Douglas' actions.
"These charges are a constant catalogue of flouting of the law," Lenaghan said.
Citing Douglas' efforts to stay off of drugs since his incarceration, the judge opted for a conditional sentence, which includes curfews and provisions for Douglas to stay away from alcohol and narcotics. Counselling is also a likely condition.
The sentence includes concurrent sentences totalling four months for the Criminal Code charges and three months additional time for the fisheries violations to be served consecutive to the four months. The sentence also includes a probation term of one year.
Crown counsel Jensen agreed a total ban on Douglas' aboriginal right to fish would be going to far, but Lenaghan agreed to his request that Douglas follow licensing regulations for fishing as part of his conditional sentence. "He has an aboriginal right to fish," Jensen said.
Another suspect in the Aug. 8 ramming incident, Melvin Mussell, has a court date on April 3. The suspect in the Aug. 18 confrontation at the Cheam reserve, Phillip Cooper, also has a court date that day.
published on 03/28/2006
http://www.chilliwacktimes.com/issues06/035106/news/035106nn1.html
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Well, I'm guessing he won't be attacking fisheries officers anymore....not really becuase of the sentence as much as he probably didn't have fun being locked up coming off the drugs, and won't remember the whole experience fondly....tough about the meth bit, hard to know what a man's really made of when they're high and sleepless for long periods of time. Hopefully he will stay clean and makes good on his goal to turn his life around...maybe he'll start by working with FN conservation??? I guess I'm a bit cynical, and I don't want to seem negative, but I'll wait and see if this whole process doesn't just repeat itself again, before i get hopefull that something trully effective has been achieved here....
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I'm cynical as well.
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Perfect! With good behavior he'll be out in time for the Sockeye fishery >:( Call me a cinic, but he should lose his right to fish as well. Unfortunately, the sentence is not bad. I would have expected less.
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"He's extremely sorry about this and he hopes to turn his life around."
I hope that this isn't just useless rhetoric either. I sincerely wish him the best of luck in his life.
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"They wonder why people become prejudiced.
Our own government breeds it."
I'm not a member at the other bc site. But it seems to be a spreading of the bitching going on.
Who is the government made up of?
When is the judicial system ever fair? You act like they killed a man or something. Well believe me the judicial system is blind, hence 'blind justice' supposidly to be unbias. They give a murdering drunk white priest 2 years less a day after he killed my brother 2days after getting his license back from a 6 months suspension. That's supposed to be justice.
Who makes up the justice system?
And what did the DFO officer get back in 1999 after ramming a first nation boat when the altercations first really started heating up? He got F-all
Who makes up the majority of DFO officers?
Sportfishing is just that a sport - do you act this way with other sports?
People here seem to forget. BC signed no treaties with its first nations. Each nation is soverign unto its own. You can't just come here and expect roses when there's still alot of shyt to be cleaned up. You think you're the only ones unhappy with the governement? Think again. The only reason you have the right to speak so freely is because the first nation people didn't fight harder to start. They welcomed newcomes with open arms. This was less than 130 years ago.
And I try to sit back and not feel anything for or against this matter but people with so much freedom keep wanting more and more from those who've already given up everything just to suit the new people. Yes I'm native but I'm also white and right now I feel absolutely disgusted with the lack of humanity observed on these obviously non native websites.
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The only reason you have the right to speak so freely is because the first nation people didn't fight harder to start. They welcomed newcomes with open arms. This was less than 130 years ago.
And I try to sit back and not feel anything for or against this matter but people with so much freedom keep wanting more and more from those who've already given up everything just to suit the new people. Yes I'm native but I'm also white and right now I feel absolutely disgusted with the lack of humanity observed on these obviously non native websites.
Well, I have been one to speak my mind whether it was right or not at times in the past. Lately, I have just sat back and not really gotten into it much with anyone. BUT, saying things such as this IS NOT helping anyone. My eyes almost cane out of my head when reading this. What the hell did you expect him to get, a slap an the friggin wrist. There are so many that get away with blue murder, and this guy gets a seven month conditional sentence. He was a Drug addict at the time, had absolutely No respect for authority, and endangered everyone around him. That was only one incident, he also had a history of many more infractions. I don't care if he was native or not, that kind of shyt can not be tolerated.
Also, I don't know, was it just me or did what you said come off as prejudice??? I will not get any further into that, as that kind of crap has no place on this or any other "non-native" site. I will also not get into my feelings on the subject of whether or not what he got was fair, why? Because it doesn't matter what I feel on it, nor does it matter how you feel about it. He got what he got.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt in the other thread, you didn't have to tell me or anyone else that you were native. It didn't matter. The point is, you sounded like you were trying to help. Now with those comments you have lost all credibility with me. If you don't like the " non-native" site, well then don't let the door hit you on the way out!!
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I'm sorry Prettyfly, I don't quite get where you're coming from here...it's obvious you are somewhat upset at this post but I don't really see your point? Don't take this the wrong way, but I think this is a clear cut situation where a gentleman has plead guilty, expressed remorse for his actions and now is looking to move on with his life....I don't hear anyone here saying he should be hung, or shot or anything remotely inhumane....all I read here are posts expressing cautious optimism, some skepticism and even some well wishers....It would seem these are all logical and predictable responses to the article, this is not an issue of race or creed, but rather an issue of human nature...I think it's quite normal to fear that once someone has committed a crime, or suffered from drug addiction that they might regress over time and re-offend...
I think the courts have given him the opportunity to turn things around without being too severe. I guess there are a lot of other issues surrounding First nations, the subject of fishing, and human rights and respect and what not, but I don't see that as an excuse to turn everyday straight forward situations like commiting a crime into some kind of race/prejudice/epic confrontation of some sort....he commited a crime, was punished and that's that, why make it into some inflamed issue? what did you want the courts to do here? Through him a few points of a bag, and send him on his way?
c'mon man, give your head a shake!!!
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Its kind of difficult to be predjudice when my mother is native and my father is french canadian. I sit on a fence trying to decide who is right and who is wrong and I cannot come to a clear decision because there are so many people who do wrong on both sides.
You think your words carry no harm here but they do. This is not a private forum it is a public forum free for all to see, and how you choose your words speaks volumes to the type of person you are.
Do your words speak true to who you really are?
I've been reading the archives and reading whats now being said. It is so startling. I am scared for the future. I've shared it with my relative who is a social worker, who's mother is a lawyer. Her eyes almost popped out of her head from the threads I've shown her. She couldn't believe the amount of racism that was posted here.
I know what happened back in 99. It was not a pretty site. I would think most people might think it to be war like. It was scary. But first nation people believe they have a duty to protect the rights of their childrens future.
I don't believe our rights are in place to protect someones blatant ignorance, which is why I've been sharing the information with my relative. We've been speaking about who is right and who is wrong. The bottom line factor here is First nation people have an inherent right. That has already been established long before anyone else got here.
And perhaps how you read the words and how I read the words are different Ribwart. I read sincere sarcasm and sadly sincere racism. And I believe it's only because this is still a fresh thread that the jabs and racial remarks havent been added. All you have to do is read through the archives to get a clear indication of what the mind set is here. Yes, maybe it is out of anger but if people want to be angry at something they should be angry at their government because it is their nation that is creating prejudice between nations.
That is what has me upset. The judicial system and this countries government is anything but fair.
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I was giving you the benefit of the doubt in the other thread, you didn't have to tell me or anyone else that you were native. It didn't matter. The point is, you sounded like you were trying to help. Now with those comments you have lost all credibility with me. If you don't like the " non-native" site, well then don't let the door hit you on the way out!!
You know you have absolutely no clue how much help I actually am. I am forced to see things through opposing eyes. I am forced to weigh the differences. All too often people dont. They only think of how it affects them as an individual or as a group. I am forced to try and understand both views.
It must be so easy for someone who doesn't have both races running through their veins. You only have to think what you and others like you think.
First Nation people don't have a right to be ignorant any more so than anyone else. With regards to the judicial system, if people are going to be able to drive after killing a 17 year old kid... be happy that this person got anything at all.
At least this native expressed remorse - my family didn't get anything from the drunk priest.
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I'm getting the feeling you might be "projecting" feelings of anger and/or resentment towards current events because of wrongs that were enacted upon you in the past, and although I sympathize with the pain your brother's death must have caused you and your family, I do not think its healthy to let past grievances influence your judgement to the point, where you see current and future events as a continuation of the injustices of the past, as it seems has occured here...
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It must be so easy for someone who doesn't have both races running through their veins. You only have to think what you and others like you think.
Ok so, I have made 2 posts maybe 3 in regards to your comments, some of which, that have been rather aggressiveon your part, and you think you know me!!!
I will no longer post anything on this thread, as I have said what I wanted to say and it would be an utter waste of time!!! :)
Self edited, as upon thinking about it, that was a bit harsh. Sorry to those who read the previous deleted statement.
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I'm getting the feeling you might be "projecting" feelings of anger and/or resentment towards current events because of wrongs that were enacted upon you in the past, and although I sympathize with the pain your brother's death must have caused you and your family, I do not think its healthy to let past grievances influence your judgement to the point, where you see current and future events as a continuation of the injustices of the past, as it seems has occured here...
But isn't that what this is really about? Non natives seem to think that very sentiment with regards to inherent rights. Unhealthy? Tell that to the Mothers Against Drunk Driving group or any other organization that acts on the injustices of the past. but you did mention that you sympathized, because it IS something that might happen to you or someone you know (I wouldn't wish it on anyone) So for some reason you feel compelled to feel sympathy for this injustice against mine but not the injustices against my people. Why not?
Regardless, perhaps it is a totally different but parallel subject. The fact of the matter is the judicial and government systems are not fair in anyones favour. The only way that is going to change is by the people making changes. Native people are always going to fight for their rights. Sport fishermen are always going to fight to protect their preferred way of life.
If you are fighting the system and I am fighting the system - why do we have to do it while fighting each other?
Big Steel - in a round about way, you suggested you had enough information to know me. I haven't posted as much as you. I don't know you in person, just what I've read from you. Not to say what I've read from you is entirely negative, just that there's more of you to read here than me.
I'm not here to cause fights or always be opposing but I do have a voice from 'the other side' and it is going to be opposing to some, insightful to others.
You might not read hate propaganda when you're reading what some write but there are people who will. I have been quite tolerant because I need to be. I'm trying very hard to understand how the sportfishermen feel, I have to - it is the livelihood of someone very close to me. I want nothing more than to see peace between the two because that will bring peace in my heart.
It means so much more to me than just a hobby, a love of fishing. It means peace between that which makes me whole and because my future will be affected by it in more ways than one.
"Those who do not learn from the past are destined to repeat it"
"The past is our key to the future."
quotes to ponder
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I don't quite get it Prettyfly, let's read again what you wrote:
Non natives seem to think that very sentiment with regards to inherent rights. Unhealthy? Tell that to the Mothers Against Drunk Driving group or any other organization that acts on the injustices of the past. but you did mention that you sympathized, because it IS something that might happen to you or someone you know (I wouldn't wish it on anyone) So for some reason you feel compelled to feel sympathy for this injustice against mine but not the injustices against my people. Why not?
Listen, and listen carefully... It's unhealthy because here you are acknowledging that I have sympathy for the fact you lost your brother, but ASSUMING I don't have any sympathy for any injustices against your people!!!!! That is what's wrong here, you are letting past grievances cloud your judgement of other peoples perspectives....what we are talking about is a convicted drug addict attacking fisheries officers and spitting on police officers, and then, admitting his guilt, and YOU ARE TRYING TO DIMINISH THIS OFFENCE TO SOME CONSPIRACY on behalf of the government to continue some secret battle between the peoples!!!! Smarten up! You trully are showing how narrow and SINGLE MINDED your previous experiences have made you...I too lost someone very dear to me to a drunk driver!!! Yet I am not blaming or absolving this Cheam band member of guilt because I lost someone to a drunk driver ... so stop playing the fool, I don't feel compelled to feel sympathy for anyone, I feel sympathy for you because I know what it is like to lose someone you love because some idiot was drunk one night and decided to drive, that does not mean I should blame every person who does something wrong from now on for what happened 10 years ago!!!
C'mon, what's wrong with you? What in the world does some drunk priest have to do with some drugged up fisherman?
So you say....
If you are fighting the system and I am fighting the system - why do we have to do it while fighting each other?
but what you don't realize is I am NOT fighting the system, I am simply voicing my concern at someone getting away with a crime, he should have been convicted for fishing illegally as well!!!!! Now it sends a message to others who resent the legislation on fisheries, that they too can fish, spit, get high and then walk away with a slap on the wrist.... I am simply trying to point out to you that you cannot link these things together, otherwise every little thing becomes some injustice or wrongdoing that went unpunished....suddenly every incident becomes some heroic confirmation of some void or battle between the cultures, it's just not right. Everybody knows what it is like to suffer an injustice, everyone gets the short end of the stick sometime....just like you did when that priest got away with his crime, just like I did when the idiot kiilled my fiance, so stop kidding yourself, because it's obvious to everyone else here that you are harbouring some issues here, this cheam member/meth addict/self admitted guilty party is not some poster child for the differences between sportfishermen and first nations, he's not some justification for the eternal punishment of priests because one chose to drink and drive, nor should you use the misunderstandings surrounding the fisheries debate as a venue to pursue your own personal vendetta's....your issues and the ones being debated over fishing rights are two entirely different things, period. Stop using this forum to justify you anger, your anger is already justified....just not in the way you think. it's justified in the humanity and compassion people feel for your loss, but it's equally unjustified when you apply your angst to unrelated events that have nothing to do with your loss....
Think about it prettyfly, consider how you might be biased and then re-read the last ten posts you've put up....there's a lot of anger there, but not a lot of reason....
So when you say: "Those who do not learn from the past are destined to repeat it" and "The past is our key to the future.", you should be applying these concepts to your own obvious prejudices, because if you do not recognize your mistake here, then you are doomed to continue this excercise in futility....just like if we let this guy off with no punishment, then he is "destined to repeat his actions" and we will be continously re-living the issues of the past, instead of moving forward towards a solution, and the future....
and so, I too am sick of arguing a mute point and am resigning myself from this post, because frankly I feel it's embarassing that I even let myself be dragged into this idiotic discussion...but my compassion for the obvious problems you are going thorugh, sucked me in, and with that I hope that if you have anything more to say that It doesn't exhibit the same jaded and bitter stance your previous comments did...
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Crime. That's the connection
You know Ribwart it doesn't matter. It seems to get lost in the translation. People will read whatever they want to read into words. The effort of understanding one another is lost on discussion boards. People are always going to read something of a serious nature with an undertone.
There were no undertones in my words. I have to live with both worlds right now through the choice my heart has made (aka love) so I have to stick it out. I never said I didn't think he should have gotten what he had. I think he should have gotten more than that as well. I said the justice system isn't fair.
I'm sorry for your loss, you're right the way it was written it seemed I assumed you hadn't had to deal with that. That was not my intention. I get passionate about things, and in my explanations I get emotional. I do that - I'm a woman, call me crazy. I try to get people to see what I mean through example. That's all it was - an example of a like (lack of) consequence to a crime that is considered serious.
And you're right, he's not a representation of the population but he is the poster child for some to use against inherent rights.
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The problem that seems to come from these discussions is that whites and natives assume that there is some sort of quiet war between the races... this is so far from the truth... all of us are guilty of letting one or two bad seeds ruin everything for everyone... I believe that natives deserve to have their fishing rights.. but I also believe that all non natives should have the rights too... I read about what has happened in the past .. I can see why natives would be angry.. but the fact of the matter is ... those things didn't happen during a time where I or anyone else on this board could have done a thing to change them..... I wasn't born in this country.. but my parents went through hell to get me here.... I was given a fresh start in a beautiful country , I am very appreciative of that fact.... I pay my taxes and I live by the law and I feel that I deserve the right to fish... as do all native people..... Pretty Fly you don't have the right to hate anyone on this site or assume that there is a conspiracy against you and your people because there are a few racist people amongst us.... also you can't let what happened to your Brother cloud your mind... it is a horrible injustice what happened to your family and I am very sorry for your loss...
There is always going to be some sort of problem as long as Non Natives and Natives continue to push the boundries.... obviously somewhere sometime somehow.. this is all going to come to a head and have disastrous consequences.... we can all try and do opur part and speak our minds.. we also all have to have a look at what we say and the accusations that are thrown about... in the end we are all humans.. and if any one of us believes that we are better than the person standing next to us we are wrong... we have to look beyond what has happened in the past and try and find an answer amongst us...
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I never said I hated anyone. Intentional or not people are reading what they like and then twist the meaning. I said some may read hate propaganda - that's not me saying I hate anyone.
The point - the only point was that justice system is not a fair and just system not at any level. The government pits people against each other. The only winners in government are the elected officials and the corporations that support them.
when I say 'you' I mean in general. If people aren't fighting each other - why get defensive? Why bold and highlight and quote? Because it is a quiet war, a protest against.
For me, it's hard not to get defensive when I read 'the natives'. It's such a generalized term it means all natives. I think 'what the hell? I'm native, I'm not doing that and yet some believe I shouldn't have the right? '
Some seem to believe it is something all natives do and continue using the words 'the natives'.
Some seem to believe that natives don't do anything for the sake of conservation.
Some are very violent in their reactions
Some are silent.
Some want to see it all get taken away from natives (that's why they voted conservative)
And yes, some do want to see positive solutions.
But I see more negative comments than positive solutions and the words 'the natives' are used so broadly, like all 'the natives' are the problem.
That makes me defensive. And the passion I have for trying to find a solution gets clouded. But I'm not the only one with clouded vision.
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I never said I hated anyone. Intentional or not people are reading what they like and then twist the meaning. I said some may read hate propaganda - that's not me saying I hate anyone.
Some seem to believe it is something all natives do and continue using the words 'the natives'.
Some seem to believe that natives don't do anything for the sake of conservation.
Some are very violent in their reactions
Some are silent.
Some want to see it all get taken away from natives (that's why they voted conservative)
And yes, some do want to see positive solutions.
But I see more negative comments than positive solutions and the words 'the natives' are used so broadly, like all 'the natives' are the problem.
That makes me defensive. And the passion I have for trying to find a solution gets clouded. But I'm not the only one with clouded vision.
you are right you never said you hated anyone!! I appologize for that
and the reason you see so much negativitity is because the negative people are always the loudest and most often heard... if you set up a poll on this site I will personally guarantee that a high % of people would choose the option which best suits both sides not just natives and not just non natives....
there are always going to be idiots in this world... unfortunately that is the way it is.... but I personally know alot of people on this site and you would be hard pressed to find a finer group of people.
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when I say 'you' I mean in general. If people aren't fighting each other - why get defensive? Why bold and highlight and quote? Because it is a quiet war, a protest against.
Why bold, highlight and quote... because this is a discussion board. Topics are constantly being debated and discussed amongst members as that is the nature of a discussion board. People are responding to your statements becaused they either agree or disagree with them.
Some seem to believe that natives don't do anything for the sake of conservation.
Some want to see it all get taken away from natives (that's why they voted conservative)
I don't recall anyone saying natives don't do anything for the sake of conservation. Just because someone votes Conservative does not mean they want to see everything taken away from the natives. That is an outlandish statement. For the record I voted Green. As the well being of the environment is at the top of my priority list.
I think I should remind you of a statement you recently made on another thread
Lets look at that root word ASSUME.. It makes an my friend out of you and me (my friend U ME) when we use it doesn't it.
Some are very violent in their reactions
violent? I would consider the actions of some Cheam members such as taking a dfo officer's vehicle and ramming a dfo boat as violent. But I think you are over reacting in your perception of some of the posts on FWR.
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Ok Eagleye
Do you feel better now?
It's apparent that SOME are going to choose to twist words.
If you would all read somewhere in the beginning I said "I've been reading through the archives"
I've been reading through the archives. I searched CHEAM. It's a pretty hard read when you are one of 'the natives'. It's pretty hard to read all of that and not feel defensive. I just started reading them this week. Read through the archives and think how it might come across to a native reading them
And maybe SOME think 'oh this persons just here to cause a flame war'. I've been a bait fisher person my whole life. In the past 9 months I've bought every issue of Fly fusion and the provincial sportfishing magazine. Why? To learn how to fly fish. I feel the need to be knowledgeable and not be left out of a conversation with my partner. If he's going to suffer through karaoke night for me, I will learn to fly fish. I want to be sure I know what I'm talking about when I try to teach my kids more about the sport and why tho they're native, they shouldn't feel it is something they can't enjoy too. 9 months ago, I knew nothing about fly casting and had no interest in teaching my kids, but now I have some knowledge and my kids are interested in learning with me.
Within that BC magazine I have read articles that should never have made it to print. Women cant spey cast? What kind of garbage is that? Virtually every article that mentioned 'first nation' was negative. Regardless, I'm here reading these things to learn. Ive bought a 12 Basic Skills of Fly fishing to try to learn fly fishing. I've learned the way it is written is not as easy as people say. I've had to read the stupid little book 3 times and I still can't figure out how to tie a leader on. Every fishing forum (approx 20) have found I have bookmarked. All the local (provincial/washington) websites I've seen that are of interest to me I bookmark. I have 7 seprate folders for each sub category. I try to read them all. I try to go back through the archives of alot of sites because people don't like having to answer 'newbie' questions. There's a lot of information in those archives.
I teach my kids how to sport fish according to catch and release guidelines because I think it's the correct thing to do. If we're not catching to keep then I should teach them the proper methods.
I've noticed one thing about all things sport fishing - it seems alot of the time, when something happens along the river, first nations are implicated.
Yes I know some of the CHEAM membership were violent, I am in no way trying to defend THEM. Choice in wording needs to change. I get flack when I say 'non native' (purposefullly done to prove a point about generalizing) because I get defensive when I read "THE NATIVES" It's a term thats just thrown around like it doesn't mean a whole group of people. That's disrespecting a whole group of people who do not deserve that.
And I could go back and cut and paste and make a whole new conversation just as easily but to what end? To bicker. I feel like I'm having a cat fight with another woman.
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You know Prettyfly it seems to me that no matter what is said to you .. you are going to see it as negative.. it is really too bad..it is obvious to me that you are just looking for an argument... for one second try this.... don't be native... don't be white... just be a human being...
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I didn't twist your words I quoted the part of your statement and pointed out what I didn't agree with. I think it's great you are interested in fly fishing and you are teaching your kids about it but what does this have to do with the thread? What do you want a medal or something??? As to your complaints about the content about a certain magazine, why don't you send in a letter to the editor or go join a womens lib group so you can vent all you want.
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You know Prettyfly it seems to me that no matter what is said to you .. you are going to see it as negative.. it is really too bad..it is obvious to me that you are just looking for an argument... for one second try this.... don't be native... don't be white... just be a human being...
Sorry I wasn't writing the previous statement to you.
Sometimes, I'd like to be seen as just human. That would be really cool sometimes. Here I suppose I could be anything because you can't see me. And I suppose I could just put my reactions to some of the topics on the back burner because I'm a minority here and i don't want to be seen as always being negative. But I wasn't raised that way. If I think something isn't right, I speak out about it. Oppression is often done by people who don't realize they're doing it. I won't deny who I am. It's not something I can just turn on and off like a light switch. My father lived the majority of his life on my reserve. I was born and raised with a native mindset. Don't ask me how that is any different, it just is. I don't relate to my french relatives, we don't think the same. And maybe some of you would rather just think bla bla bla we're all canadian. We aren't. We are living within the boundaries of a country that prides itself on its diversity.
Eagleye
What does it have to do with this thread? It's unusual for a native to be interested in sportfishing. The typical involvement seems to be through threads like this, that speaks of a native doing something against. Against... whatever the subject matter might be.
I am interested in sportfishing. I am going to have an opposing view, not all the time but some times because there isn't always going to be a reason to be opposing.
You don't see me being opposing when I'm asking about carp fishing. you don't see me being opposing about trout lines. I'm native, I'm going to have a different point of view with regards to native issues.
The Sto:lo people feel threatened. We all know how congested that stretch of the fraser is. Sportfishermen get on each others nerves. Sportfishermen complain about being packed in like sardenes. Imagine how the Sto:lo people feel. And for information sake there's over 3800 Sto:lo nation people. Some of them are doing things without fully thinking them through because they are angry, so angry that there are seemingly thousands of sportfishermen on the river on a daily basis.
How does that make you feel when you're crowded out of a much loved fishing spot?
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I'd also like to add that if aboriginal people, in particular the Cheam don't want to look bad in the eyes of the public, in particular anglers then why don't their Cheif or representatives state publicly and amongst their members that they do not condone selling fish they are not supposed to, fishing out of season and with prohibited methods. And why don't they repermand their members for doing so and also pressure government and dfo to do something about it??? Ernie Crey of the Cheam whom frequently speaks on their behalf is constantly thumbing his nose at dfo, government, anglers, and commercial fisherman.
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I'd also like to add that if aboriginal people, in particular the Cheam don't want to look bad in the eyes of the public, in particular anglers then why don't their Cheif or representatives state publicly and amongst their members that they do not condone selling fish they are not supposed to, fishing out of season and with prohibited methods. And why don't they repermand their members for doing so and also pressure government and dfo to do something about it??? Ernie Crey of the Cheam whom frequently speaks on their behalf is constantly thumbing his nose at dfo, government, anglers, and commercial fisherman.
Because the DFO and government keep trying to change the 'existing' rights of Aboriginal people. They can't do that. It's written in the constitution. Since it's written in to the Constitution that Aboriginal people have a right to fish, the DFO is limited in its jurisdiction.
Why would the chief try to dimish the right of his people? I don't think they are particularly concerned with what sportfishermen think of them. They're defending their rights as written in the Constitution. You know the government wants to lump all first nation people together as being the same. We're not the same, we all have different cultures. Granted there are similarities but we are all distinct. Okanagan people are not Sto:lo people, Carrier people are not Squamish. It's in accurate to think all Aboriginal people are going to think the same.
I - me personally, do not want to be thought of in the same light as some first nations. I don't believe we have to be violent to be heard. I do believe we all have to be heard and not judged. I think we have to try hard to come to an understanding. We have to try hard to understand where the other is coming from.
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Why? because their right to fish will be worth nothing if their are no fish left. The reason DFO makes openings at certain times is to protect fragile stocks from over fishing, which could possibly lead to extinction. If aboriginal people who fish whenever they want with whatever they want continue to do so it could have dire consequences on runs that cannot handle the pressure. Am I saying aboriginals fishers are the sole cause of why are some of our stocks are critically low...NO. But the fact is they are low and must be handled accordingly. As a native fellow once said to me, they (reffering to aboriginal fisherman) are gonna wipe out the fish in that river (Fraser) and there will be nothing left for my grandchildren. He went on to tell me how disgusted he was about how much of the fish goes to waste and to support certain members booze habits. He did not fish himself but commented on how he did not feel he got his fair share of fish from his band members that did partake in the fishery.
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I can't speak for that particular first nation. I don't know what their motive is, I don't understand it either. I know what my nation is doing. They're reintroducing salmon stocks. They've identified that the salmon are trying to get back into the Okanagan dispite the dams in place. We have one community fishery celebrating their return. I haven't heard of anyone complaining about that, and that's good because it was the okanagan people who believed it would work, not a whole lot of other people. It had to be proven first that there were actual ocean going salmon in the lake.
Maybe the Cheam membership see sportfishermen packed in like sardines and think the same way. If you're all catching and sometimes releasing but extremely roughly (as I've read, which *I* know you all arent,) if they're witnessing this mishandling maybe they're thinking the same - the runs cannot handle that kind of violence and that amount of pressure.
Maybe they think what you do cannot be justified because it is done for pleasure. I'm just taking guesses.
I agree with the native fellow who spoke to you. I don't defend my inherent rights to have them stomp all over it.
But that's one nation with more than 38 hundred members, with probably 200 +/- practicing their inherent right. Compare that to the impact of commercial fisheries. It's not just Canadians fishing commercially, it's all the countries in the pacific rim. They have an affect on our fisheries - an affect we aren't even sure of. We don't know how the salmon are fairing out there in the open ocean.
The government is allowing corporations to rape the waters, polluting it with factories and saw mills along the shore, dumping oil and other toxins from trains and boats. Licenced sportfishermen beating on fish because it's not open to keep them. And then openly talking about how those fish will probably not survive because of how they were handled.That's just sickening.
There's a bigger picture, a bigger cause to the problem. And right now, because they see you and you see them and each thinking the other is wrong...
It's the fear mongering that is making this so hard. Oh the natives are doing this and this, just wait until treaties.. omg what's going to happen then. Oh our rights will be gone and the natives will have everything. omg... the irony to that thought.
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Have you ever heard of the saying two wrongs don't make a right?
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Are you trying to instigate an argument with me?
What kind of statement is that? Have I ever heard of two wrongs don't make a right. I'm not 12
What is your point?
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My point is that just because there are other factors affecting the survival of fish does not mean native people should not fish responsibly. IMO it is the responsibility of all who use the resource to do so in a sustainable manner to ensure the surival of our salmon for the well being of species reliant on it and for the sake of future generations. Just because "The government is allowing corporations to rape the waters, polluting it with factories and saw mills along the shore, dumping oil and other toxins from trains and boats" doesn't mean that natives should fish whenever they want with whatever they want in spite of this. Anyone can blame all of the injustices surrounding the management of our waterways but if they are not doing their part to impact the environment as least as possible and fish sustainably then they are just as much to blame. This is a fundamental problem in society that affects the environment. Everyone thinks it is someone elses fault and the problem is so overwhelming that they don't think of what their doing that is affecting the environment because in their mind it pales in comparison to the problem as a whole and see it as futile.
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And I just finished telling you what my nation is doing about this. I cannot speak for another nation and what they are doing.
Have you ever heard of two wrongs don't make a right?
What of those that are literally kicking sockeye salmon back into the river? Who's responsibility is it to tell them what to do? They're still fishing legally. Does that make it any more right?
My point was they have an inherent right that is written into the constitution. It is the governement of the day that has tried to manipulate that right through the use of the DFO.
Really what is your point here? You're trying to argue with me about this, why?
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I'm sorry Fly, but all I see from Eagleye is a statement, that is not directed at anyone. I do not see anything argumentative in it whatsoever. How does a statement such as "This is a fundamental problem in society that affects the environment." come off as trying to start a fight? He did say a problem with society did he not? Not a problem with rec fishermen or "the natives". The main person I see on this thread starting verbal wars is, well, you!! Reread this and tell me that I am wrong! Everyone read this next statement from Prettyfly and tell me I am wrong!!
Have you ever heard of two wrongs don't make a right?
What of those that are literally kicking sockeye salmon back into the river? Who's responsibility is it to tell them what to do? They're still fishing legally. Does that make it any more right?
My point was they have an inherent right that is written into the constitution. It is the government of the day that has tried to manipulate that right through the use of the DFO.
Really what is your point here? You're trying to argue with me about this, why?
I think that this is just about enough of this, but I am not a mod, so, all I can say is give it a rest!! It is getting real old, real quick!! ::)
PS, I know I said I wouldn't post anymore on this thread, well, I lied!!! Sue me!!! Or call the DFO!! Whatever works for ya!! ;)
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Really what is your point here? You're trying to argue with me about this, why?
I don't think you wish to see my point and I have exhausted myself on this topic. I agree with Big Steel it is time to move on.
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I agree, this thread has run it's course.
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I had just finished making a lengthy post on page 2 and then he posts
"Have you ever heard two rights don't make a wrong"
Why ask that? Was it just a retorical question? Was it meant to instigate???
I said I don't agree with what they're doing. What would you like me to do about it? I can't tell them what to do any more than anyone else. I can write to their band and say i don't approve and I will do that. I've told you what I'm doing about it.
I am just as frustrated. There are people on all sides making it difficult - not just the natives.
Lets look at this in another light. Sportfishermen fish for all kinds of fish for sport. There are loads of fish in the water to fish for - why salmon? Why not take a united stand and say "We're going to stop sportfishing for salmon for an entire year. That's our protest. We're going to challenge you to do the same".
All I can tell you is what my nation is doing about it.
My nation works hard at conservation. They monitor salmon stocks in the waterways in Canada that run to the ocean - Okanagan lake, Skaha lake, Vaseaux lake and the Okanagan River. Beyond that I'm not sure because its in the states. But the salmon are returning. They were a huge aspect to our survival. No one thought of the consequences of building dams in the Columbia river and how it would affect the salmon coming into the Okanagan. Most people didn't even know that Sockeye are a native fish to the Okanagan system.
Maybe that's what it's going to have to take is for all the salmon to stop coming back to the Fraser river. Maybe everyone needs to get off of it before that happens. But no, everyone keeps ripping at it trying to take their fair share and seemingly not care what is happening.