Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: scouterjames on November 01, 2006, 08:03:47 AM
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I was reading FishFreaks procure roe post and there were a few questions asked on some of the posts that weren't answered... got me thinking that since I don't know diddly about fishing with roe, I'd like to know the answers too! Here's some of the questions that were posted:
I hear people prefer Chum roe even to the extent of killing them just for the roe and wasting the rest. I kept a huge chrome spring doe once and tried to give the roe away but someone said the eggs are too big. Is that true?
Does size matter and type of salmon it comes from matter?
Does the procure add colour as well as scent?
Does scent matter at all?
Is the egg's natural scent enough?
I've fished with pale pink eggs to bright fire engine red eggs and seem to have more or less similar results. Does the colour of the finished eggs matter too?
What determines how long the eggs last when fishing? Those that I've used last for about 6-10 casts before they turn white or fall off the hook.
Last, but not least - I need some advice: What's everyone's preferred method (read: advice) of fishing with roe (bait hook, conditions, species targeted, etc)?
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To answer a few questions:
- procure preserves the roe and adds color...I don't think it has any add scent designed to attract fish
-big spring eggs are one of the best eggs in IMO...they are so pale that they really color up well and I think that often color is a key factor whether its roe, wool ties, etc. I have caught fish on all species of roe except sockeye but htne again I have never tried it. A funny example... Bug pumper and I have had such hot days on the cap that we have run out of bait...we then have been know to clean our little cap coho and used chunks of those tiny cap coho skiens with pin sized eggs and had just as good results with that uncured roe as some nice procured spring roe!
-no one really knows what spefically will trigger an individual strike...we all kinda have an idea in general but I think a fish's "taste" are as individualized as we all are so every strike probably has different causes based onthe indivudual fish. that said, try and offer as many stimuli as possible ie, scent (roe or some additive), color (with a cure or contrasting wool with bait), etc.
-is the eggs natural scent enuff...yes but many people add scent for the reason above.
-every batch of eggs I cure seems to get a variety of results in terms of how quickly they milk and stay on the hook. Maturity of the skien and how tight it is plays a major role in an egg clusters durability...milking on the other hand, I am not sure what influences that.
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I was reading FishFreaks procure roe post and there were a few questions asked on some of the posts that weren't answered... got me thinking that since I don't know diddly about fishing with roe, I'd like to know the answers too! Here's some of the questions that were posted:
I hear people prefer Chum roe even to the extent of killing them just for the roe and wasting the rest. I kept a huge chrome spring doe once and tried to give the roe away but someone said the eggs are too big. Is that true?
Does size matter and type of salmon it comes from matter?
Size always matters! ;D
Seriously, I don't think so but there is a school of thought that says "match the hatch" or try to mimic what would be in the water at the time you're fishing. If chum are spawning, you might be better off using chum roe rather than spring or pink salmon roe, for example. But the other school of thought says it's bait and therefore that's the incentive, regardless of salmon type. You choose.
Does the procure add colour as well as scent?
Procure cures the roe. It can add color but not scent. You can choose to add scent yourself separately.
Does scent matter at all?
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Fishfreak at one time added anise oil to his red colored roe. It seemed to outfish my natural color/natural scent roe. But other times the opposite is also true.
Is the egg's natural scent enough?
See above.
I've fished with pale pink eggs to bright fire engine red eggs and seem to have more or less similar results. Does the colour of the finished eggs matter too?
See above.
What determines how long the eggs last when fishing? Those that I've used last for about 6-10 casts before they turn white or fall off the hook.
The curing method makes the most difference. But also, water conditions (ie:choppy rough water will mean less casts) and even how you cast. You want to use a gentler lob than a violent twitching cast.
Last, but not least - I need some advice: What's everyone's preferred method (read: advice) of fishing with roe (bait hook, conditions, species targeted, etc)?
I tend to use it anytime. The scent can be useful in low clarity conditions, the color is a visual attractant in clearer conditions. Don't use roe if you don't like getting your hands dirty though. You can pretty much target any species of fish using a natural bait because you're trying to trigger a feeding behavior (although a recent thing I heard was that salmon will take roe as a competitive instinct). Attach the roe onto your hook with a bait loop and off you go.
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Gooey adds a good point about the quality of the roe. You want to use fresh roe from a fish that isn't close to spawning otherwise the skeins will fall apart and the eggs won't stay on the skein. Those ones however will make awesome single eggs. ;)
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MERC and Gooey have done a good job answering your questions, I'll add to your question about technique. First of all generally use large chunks (but I will go smaller if it's not producing.) of roe unless I'm fishing roe bags in faster water then it's dime to quarter size. When fishing roe tie a baitloop knot to attach your hook. I use size #1 gammies for large chunks and #4s for smaller chunks. I put the hook through the roe 2-3 times then put the part of the roe that is hanging off loose in the bait loop. Then I wrap spider thread starting at the eye of the hook and wrapping around the roe securing it tight to the hook so that when a fish bites it's sure to hit the hook. This also helps to keep the roe on the hook. I find I get most of my bites on my first, second or third cast so I change my roe frequently. I set my float 1-3 ft off the bottom and drift it at the same speed as the current (I think this is important because if your drifting it slower than the current it creates drag in the water which looks unnatural) while trying not to let out too much slack line so I can set the hook the instant the fish bites it to prevent deep hooking and insure a solid hookset. Obviously a baitcaster is ideal for this especially one which spool disengages with a depression of the thumb bar. I generally use roe when targeting coho as they are notorious roe hogs.
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The main reason why I use spider thread is to keep the roe tight to the hook so that when a fish bites he is sure to hit the hook. This is just personal preference but I find I get a better bite to hook up ratio doing this. I don't own a centre pin but I have heard they do spin more freely but my comment about using a baitcaster was actually meant to mean spinning reels are not ideal for drifting roe, I wasn't thinking about CPs when I posted. I find baitcasters with super free spool spin freely enough to drift roe even in slow water so I don't have a need to use a CP. But I will probably get one some day just for a change of pace.
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For coho try adding garlic salt to the borax you pack the roe in.
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I haven't had that problem. But i do find that the eggs wont stay on the skein well until i freeze the roe, defrost it for use, then refreeze it. The second time i go to use the eggs stay on great.
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Does anyone elses shrivel up a bit after freezing?
Isn't that a rather personal question?
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I'm farely new to fishin with roe as well, and was just curious, is it worth while curing eggs that have already been frozen, or has the freezing process already had a deteriorating effect on the eggs membrane?
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The basic problem with curing previously frozen fresh roe:
Imagine a salmon egg. Inside there is a limited amount of space and it's filled with fluid. Now, if you remember your basic science, when water freezes, it expands. Has to due with the way molecules behave as a liquid versus as a solid. Inside your egg is basically water (okay, it's actually egg stuff but it is made of water) and when it freezes will expand. And, you will get ice crystals forming inside. Those little crystals are sharp, they cut things like egg membrane as it expands if there's not enough space inside the egg to accomodate freezing egg liquid. So you now have holes in your egg and when you thaw your roe, it's gushy because egg fluid is leaking out of the holes made by ice crystals.
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The basic problem with curing previously frozen fresh roe:
Imagine a salmon egg. Inside there is a limited amount of space and it's filled with fluid. Now, if you remember your basic science, when water freezes, it expands. Has to due with the way molecules behave as a liquid versus as a solid. Inside your egg is basically water (okay, it's actually egg stuff but it is made of water) and when it freezes will expand. And, you will get ice crystals forming inside. Those little crystals are sharp, they cut things like egg membrane as it expands if there's not enough space inside the egg to accomodate freezing egg liquid. So you now have holes in your egg and when you thaw your roe, it's gushy because egg fluid is leaking out of the holes made by ice crystals.
thats what happened to mine...IT SUCKED big time...eggs turned out like crap...another reasontostickwiththefly!!!!. ;)
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Egg Stuff :o :o
haha Merc you crack me up ... now pick up you're smoked salmon ;D
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The basic problem with curing previously frozen fresh roe:
Imagine a salmon egg. Inside there is a limited amount of space and it's filled with fluid. Now, if you remember your basic science, when water freezes, it expands. Has to due with the way molecules behave as a liquid versus as a solid. Inside your egg is basically water (okay, it's actually egg stuff but it is made of water) and when it freezes will expand. And, you will get ice crystals forming inside. Those little crystals are sharp, they cut things like egg membrane as it expands if there's not enough space inside the egg to accomodate freezing egg liquid. So you now have holes in your egg and when you thaw your roe, it's gushy because egg fluid is leaking out of the holes made by ice crystals.
thats what happened to mine...IT SUCKED big time...eggs turned out like crap...another reasontostickwiththefly!!!!. ;)
I am with you. Next year it will be atleast 75% fly and only 25% float fishing. This carrying a whole bunch of crap is getting too tiring for this guy. I have my William Joseph utility belt that carries my flies and everything I need. No bait no mess and nothing but fun. Even if I hookup less I am fine with that.
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Egg Stuff :o :o
haha Merc you crack me up ... now pick up you're smoked salmon ;D
I try to use the most precise scientific terminology that is applicable. ;D
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I put the hook through the roe 2-3 times then put the part of the roe that is hanging off loose in the bait loop. Then I wrap spider thread starting at the eye of the hook and wrapping around the roe securing it tight to the hook so that when a fish bites it's sure to hit the hook. This also helps to keep the roe on the hook.
Interesting method Eagle, how many times do you wrap the roe with the spider thread? How long does it last (the roe I mean)? When you replace the roe, does the spider thread come off easy?
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I don't use the same amount of wraps everytime. I wrap it fairly tight around the eye of the hook a couple times then I wrap the roe gently around the hook until I come to the bottom of the chunk (where the bend of the hook should be located) then I wrap the part of the roe chunk that is to the sides of the hook tight to the hook, finishing off with a couple tighter wraps at the eye of the hook. I change mine every 4-5 casts not because it has fallen off but because it looses some of it's color and milking ability. I've never actually counted how many casts I could make before it falls off but I'm sure this would vary depending on the speed of current. If you want your eggs to stay on longer it helps to reel in slowly when retrieving them. To change the roe simply loosen the bait loop and slide it off, if the spider thread prevents you from doing this or keeps it hanging from the hook after sliding it off simply pull on it to snap it off. If there is still spider thread on your bait loop which prevents it from opening break it off as well. It is a little more time consuming than just using a bait loop but when using large chunks of roe I find it increases my hook up ratio and is therefore worth the extra effort.
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I see now, thanks for the info. I'll definitely try it next time out.
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i have never had any issues with freezing fresh spring roe then thawing it when needed and curing it up. Trick is to get all the blood out while you are at the river, while the eggs are still fresh from the fish and the blood has not coagulated in the skein. I have come to prefer this as compared to curing then freezing for later use. too each his own though.
I personally have my best success using large egged red hot double stuff pro cured and boraxed spring roe for coho while float fishing. Bar fishing on the fraser the coho don't seem to even be interested in it. For that fishing I use the standard fresh, boraxed doggy roe. One thing i've noticed about chum roe however, it does not like to frozen prior to curing, seems a little more fragile than the big spring eggs.
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I'm farely new to fishin with roe as well, and was just curious, is it worth while curing eggs that have already been frozen, or has the freezing process already had a deteriorating effect on the eggs membrane?
I never freeze the eggs without curing it first.
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OK, new dumb question, still in the same topic.... What do you do when you have no roe? (sounds like a bad poem!). I've read the odd persons post that they buy it. Does bought stuff work? Where does one buy the ahem, 'best' bought stuff from?
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I'm not a big fan of commercially cured roe, but if you don't have any....
Or, depending on where you live, you could also go to a public fish sales dock, (Steveston or Vancouver) but expect to pay a premium for what they call "sushi grade" roe.
Or, if you have a friend who's a commercial fisherman...
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I agree with Merc, not a big fan of commercially cured roe. You're paying premium prices for often substandard roe.
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Went down to Steveston docks yesterday (friday), found a boat just setting up for the weekend with unfrozen chum roe. Don't be afraid to bargan, They started at $8, I ended up paying $6.50 per lb. Maybe now I'll try FishFreak' Roe Cure. ;D