Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Matt on December 28, 2011, 07:56:45 PM
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Rotational angling works really well to let a bunch of people fish a section of river harmoniously. Its really simple and prevents conflicts. Furthermore, most fish take your presentation first couple cast, so constantly covering new water only increases your effectiveness.
*Avoid entering the water downstream of another angler who is already fishing, unless invited to do so
*Leave adequate room between the downstream angler and yourself but do not remain stationary unless no one is following you
*After catching a fish, step out of the line and return to the head of the pool, or start of the line
*If you are not sure about the local etiquette, avoid any problems by first inquiring about the procedures from the anglers already on the water
If everyone follows this, it works really well. When someone deviates from it, people get upset. If you wonder why someone got upset when you stepped below them, that's why. Its in the regs: http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/fish/ethics/
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I always try to abide with what you are saying.
What would you do if the person seems to be stuck and not moving? Do you wait or go up to him/her and ask ?
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I have some questions on this as well. When there is no choice but to go down stream of someone, how much space is proper? Also, when working your way through and come up to someone slower, how close should you get to them before just lap frogging them and moving down river?
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When there is no choice but to go down stream of someone, how much space is proper? Also, when working your way through and come up to someone slower, how close should you get to them before just lap frogging them and moving down river?
Not sure how there would be 'no choice but to go downstream'. If someone is at the head of a run, I usually ask if it's ok to fish above them and wait until they've moved enough to give us adequate room.
If I come up to someone slower than me I will usually fish their pace or move on somewhere else if it's too slow. I will ask to fish through only if it looks like they've planted themselves and want to really work that one spot.
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I always try to abide with what you are saying.
What would you do if the person seems to be stuck and not moving? Do you wait or go up to him/her and ask ?
Ask them if you can fish through and start below them.
I have some questions on this as well. When there is no choice but to go down stream of someone, how much space is proper? Also, when working your way through and come up to someone slower, how close should you get to them before just lap frogging them and moving down river?
Divide the river up into sections of water that one would fish without reeling up and stepping out of the river. I can't see anyone reasonable getting upset if they were fishing a run and you fished in the pool below. As for distance, I wouldn't go any closer than the length of line I'm fishing so that my hook wasn't swinging past the guy as i was retrieving/ reeling in.
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I have some questions on this as well. When there is no choice but to go down stream of someone, how much space is proper? Also, when working your way through and come up to someone slower, how close should you get to them before just lap frogging them and moving down river?
It varies from situation to situation, but a good rule of thumb is (when drift-fishing) not to allow your float to go further downstream from where the person below you is standing (unless you have asked beforehand).
In salmon season, this is rather difficult to observe on the more popular flows, so you are best off asking the guy below what he/she is comfortable with.
Most people respond surprisingly pleasantly when approached in a respectful manner, and will just tell you to fish and not worry. In case you run into an idiot that starts yelling profanities at you, just move on. There's plenty more water below him.
Fly fishing is an entirely different ball game. Double-handers especially. Those guys need at least twice the space drifters do. Anything less than 50 feet is 'dangerous' territory.
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If a guy is fence posting PASS but you had better keep moving once you pass otherwise stay behind him, either way if he has a clue he will be on his way soon to other waters
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Not sure how there would be 'no choice but to go downstream'. If someone is at the head of a run, I usually ask if it's ok to fish above them and wait until they've moved enough to give us adequate room.
If I come up to someone slower than me I will usually fish their pace or move on somewhere else if it's too slow. I will ask to fish through only if it looks like they've planted themselves and want to really work that one spot.
I mean that when heading to a spot and you see someone working an area, how far down from them is acceptable to start casting, 100 yards, 200 yards, more? It's just not practical to slow your pace to a crawl because of someone slower or to pack up and look for a new spot every time you see someone. You would end up walking and driving much more than fishing and that is not what I want to do when going to the river.
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It varies from situation to situation, but a good rule of thumb is (when drift-fishing) not to allow your float to go further downstream from where the person below you is standing (unless you have asked beforehand).
In salmon season, this is rather difficult to observe on the more popular flows, so you are best off asking the guy below what he/she is comfortable with.
Most people respond surprisingly pleasantly when approached in a respectful manner, and will just tell you to fish and not worry. In case you run into an idiot that starts yelling profanities at you, just move on. There's plenty more water below him. So true, I've never got a rude answer to asking If I can fish through past someone.
Fly fishing is an entirely different ball game. Double-handers especially. Those guys need at least twice the space drifters do. Anything less than 50 feet is 'dangerous' territory. Literally! I've seen fresh 20# tippet snap when the fly got caught on something while being launched with a Skagit line. Getting hit by the line alone is painful. If that fly touches you it won't just penetrate your waders/ jacket, it will rip flesh. Give spey guys a wide berth for your own safety.
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I mean that when heading to a spot and you see someone working an area, how far down from them is acceptable to start casting, 100 yards, 200 yards, more? It's just not practical to slow your pace to a crawl because of someone slower or to pack up and look for a new spot every time you see someone. You would end up walking and driving much more than fishing and that is not what I want to do when going to the river.
Ask them if its a longer run or fish below wherever they'd have to reel in their gear (end of a pool, set of rapids etc).
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I mean that when heading to a spot and you see someone working an area, how far down from them is acceptable to start casting, 100 yards, 200 yards, more? It's just not practical to slow your pace to a crawl because of someone slower or to pack up and look for a new spot every time you see someone. You would end up walking and driving much more than fishing and that is not what I want to do when going to the river.
I would say if your in the same run there is no acceptable distance downstream to step in. If someone is working the run it's only right to step in above them and not below. No matter how long the run is. If the person is fence posting that's a different story but stop and watch for a minute. Too many people get to a run and race in so fast. Stop and watch what others are doing, if they are stepping down, even slowly, allow them to move down a bit and then step in up top. If they are moving too slow for you then sit and wait a bit for them to get a good distance ahead then start working it. You will often find that once you step in and show you're moving as well they will increase their pace a bit too.
On Tuesday a buddy and I showed up at a run likely about 50 yards or so long with 4 guys already on it. We stopped and waited and they noticed us and started working down the run. We moved up top and fished down above them. They worked down to a lower run and then returned back up to the top. We had 6 guys effectively working a fairly small run with no problems. We had spey, single handers, pins, and drifters and it worked great.
As a Spey guy it's nice to hear people saying to leave room. We can however fish fairly closely with gear guys, in fact a gear buddy and I have fished almost shoulder to shoulder in a canyon section, but I wouldn't recommend getting that close to a stranger and casting. With Spey casters you have to remember that they often need to swing line upstream to set their anchor.
Best rule of thumb with any caster is STOP take a minute and watch what they are doing and give them the appropriate room. It's not going to kill you to take an extra minute. Hell sit down have a beer or a bite to eat and asses the situation. You'll also likely have some better success when you take that extra time to read the water and plan your attack.
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Here’s a story for you on fishing etiquette..........
Last year I was fishing the Vedder for steelhead with another buddy. We parked in a popular spot, walked in, and saw lots of people. I try to avoid fishing with others so I walked downstream and around the corner. I found two other guys fishing this sweet hole. I stood back, surveyed the water, watched these two older guys for a bit and it was obvious they knew what they were doing. There was about 50 meters of fishable water above them. I walked up to the guys and said hello. One guy turned around and grunted, the other fellow did nothing :-X. I stepped a little closer, and asked how the fishing was. One guy was receptive to a conversation so we ended up chatting for a few minutes. Then I asked, you mind if I fish above you guys? He said “ya sure, go for it”. There was a pause, and then he said “thanks”. I said thanks for what? He said for asking if you could fish above us :). Then we got into a discussion about fishing ethics and the lack that is on the rivers these days :(. These guys were in there late 40’s, early 50’s so they’ve been around when fishing etiquette was alive and kicking. I’m mid thirties and have been around long enough that I’ve witnessed some etiquette and have always practiced it myself.
So I fish upstream for 20 minutes, and get nothing. I look downstream at the guy that I was talking with, and he gives me the head nod to fish in his spot :o. I gather my belongings, and head down to him. We have a chat and he tells me that there is a steelie on the far side and he wants me to give it a go. He lights a smoke, stands back, and lets me swing my pin. I fish it for about 5 minutes in the spot he tells me, float down, fish on 8)! I bring a nice 7 lb doe steelie to shore. He shakes my hand and takes a picture of me and my fish and tells me he gets more joy out of someone else catching a fish than he does :).
This goes to show you that fishing etiquette does go a long way and can still be seen every now and then...........even on the Vedder :)
Here’s another story from the same day, just a few hours after.
Same fishing hole, just me and my buddy now. Two young guys (late teenagers/ mid twenties) come around the corner fishing their centerpins. They don’t come up and chat at all, they just start fishing right away from the top down to my buddy. I was fishing a little further downstream at this point. These guys fish the hole right up to my buddy, probably within 10 feet, let their float drift about 20 feet past him >:(, then move around him, probably 10 feet below him again and keep fishing >:(. You can see where this is going. My buddy is fairly confrontational , and he gets into it with those two guys. Anxiety levels ramp up within seconds, I walk up and ask what’s going on. The young guys said your buddy just started screamin at us for no reason. I explain the scenario that happened earlier on in the day to these young lads, they say nothing, and move on ???.
Same fishing hole, two different approaches, two different results. It all depends on your approach :)
Just thought I’d share this with everyone since there seems to be an etiquette theme going on lately.
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Hell sit down have a beer or a bite to eat and asses the situation.
You said asses ;D
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I think we all started fishing without "thinking" about others when we started.
Eventually, we learn the proper ways and hopefully, these two learn to appreciate your story a bit more and be better fishermen.
Heck, when I started someone told me fishing with just a bare hook was the proper way to catch a fish. Not knowing any better, I tried it but pulling a fish backward is just not my thing. I learned from talking to people and over the years I became better at what I do.
Live and learn.
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great stories that we can all relate to...i was fishing boxing day and the exact same thing happened to myself and a couple of buddies, where we were waiting to fish a run someone was working when this yahoo corked in below all of us right into the tail out.
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chances are if someone is fence posting, they won't mind you going below them. just make sure you give them a good distance of drift by watching how far their float goes....and if you're going above them don't be a dick and allow your float to reach the distance where they're standing.
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I think we all started fishing without "thinking" about others when we started.
No, many of us were taught by our fathers who were sportsmen and sweated etiquette. We were raised to think about others and to treat others as you would have them treat you. It is unfortunate that not everyone is raised in that way, but it is important to be patient with them until they do learn. It is also important to understand how the other guy fishes, as this may not be the same way as you. A guy fishing spoons is not going to fish at the same pace as a guy fishing roe, and neither will fish the same pace as a guy swinging flies. You cannot expect everyone to fish the run as fast (or slow) as you, nor should you assume a guy is "fence posting" because he fishes slower than you. If you absolutely have to fish the same run, take the time to watch the other guy(s) to see how they are fishing and make your decision based on your own fishing style.
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Well said Sandman ;D
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This is all good stuff for me. I am new to it and didn't get that benefit of fishing with dad at a young age. I want to do things right and I have learned a lot in the past few months but still have much to learn.
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No, many of us were taught by our fathers who were sportsmen and sweated etiquette. We were raised to think about others and to treat others as you would have them treat you. It is unfortunate that not everyone is raised in that way, but it is important to be patient with them until they do learn. It is also important to understand how the other guy fishes, as this may not be the same way as you. A guy fishing spoons is not going to fish at the same pace as a guy fishing roe, and neither will fish the same pace as a guy swinging flies. You cannot expect everyone to fish the run as fast (or slow) as you, nor should you assume a guy is "fence posting" because he fishes slower than you. If you absolutely have to fish the same run, take the time to watch the other guy(s) to see how they are fishing and make your decision based on your own fishing style.
Very well written, Sandman. This is etiquette 101.
I highlighted the main ideas for those with a short attention span or ADD. ;)
New anglers should write the above down on a piece of paper and carry it with them to the flow.
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chances are if someone is fence posting, they won't mind you going below them. just make sure you give them a good distance of drift by watching how far their float goes....and if you're going above them don't be a dick and allow your float to reach the distance where they're standing.
Why should fence posters be given special treatment? Often they are parked at prime holding water and as far as I'm concerned they are showing poor etiquette and should not expect people to not allow their float to reach the poster.
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How long do you have to fish a spot to be a fence poster? If I got a bump, have a hunch, or know there's a fish in a specific spot in a piece of water I'll pound that spot for a fair bit of time until I'm satisfied it's not going to bite or there is no fish there. It could be a 5 minute span or it could be 20 minutes. Anglers should ALWAYS ask to fish below an angler who's already fishing a piece of water as then you'll truly know what there doing. Also don't get in a huff if the guy says no you can wait to fish below them.
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After I finish flying through a ton of water I fence post in prime spots I know have fish and enjoy cleaning out the pool. Anyone is more than welcome to fish 15 feet from me and drift their presentation exactly where my gear travels if they like. I mean they can target the exact same holding spot I'm targeting if they want. If I'm fly fishing you might want to give me a bit more room just for safety. If I'm flying through water you can fish above me or below me or we can hold hands going downstream or upstream I don't care. You are NOT going to decrease my chance of success in any case. If you hook a fish right where I'm fishing the other fish moved one spot up or down from your hooked fish spot. I'll catch the next two after you in those spots. Thanks for spooking them away from that stump brother... you tha bomb.
After saying this though if I'm on a remote river I probably won't even cast anywhere near your pool and you won't see me because there is so much water to cover all over the place.
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For fence poster I will let my float go down to them on every drift as I work the water close to them. I will then ask if I can fish below them, if they say no well too bad I will fish below them anyways. I mean you can not expect to sit at a spot for the entire time while I was working down towards them and have me just stop and not fish the rest of the run.
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There's no need to spend more than 10-15 minutes in one spot if you are not catching fish after a few casts and a couple of presentation switches.
You are either:
a) Not getting your presentation down to the fish, so your effort is futile.
or
b) There's no fish there.
A Vedder old-timer averaging 50-60 fish per season told me this a couple of years ago, and I have finally started to listen. ;D
Of course, I will now hear from the guy who said they got a steelhead after having fished the same spot for two hours without success.
Or maybe not, no one will admit they are fence posters publicly, will they? ;)
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Btw I do ask if I can fish below a fence poster and I've never had one say no. I imagine I would also ignore them and move below.
You are perfectly within your right to pound a run for 15 minutes but you're high if you think anyone is going to wait for you.
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Why should fence posters be given special treatment? Often they are parked at prime holding water and as far as I'm concerned they are showing poor etiquette and should not expect people to not allow their float to reach the poster.
i don't think of it as special treatment...i think of it as circumstances and an opportunity to work around the person fence posting.
with so many kms of river and knowing the tendencies of these fish, why should i let one spot stop me from doing what most steelheaders do? "move on".... it almost sounds like you've got a bad case of entitlement.
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After I finish flying through a ton of water I fence post in prime spots I know have fish and enjoy cleaning out the pool. Anyone is more than welcome to fish 15 feet from me and drift their presentation exactly where my gear travels if they like. I mean they can target the exact same holding spot I'm targeting if they want. If I'm fly fishing you might want to give me a bit more room just for safety. If I'm flying through water you can fish above me or below me or we can hold hands going downstream or upstream I don't care. You are NOT going to decrease my chance of success in any case. If you hook a fish right where I'm fishing the other fish moved one spot up or down from your hooked fish spot. I'll catch the next two after you in those spots. Thanks for spooking them away from that stump brother... you tha bomb.
After saying this though if I'm on a remote river I probably won't even cast anywhere near your pool and you won't see me because there is so much water to cover all over the place.
Not everybody likes fishing 15 feet from you. Rotational angling works well, its widely accepted by anyone who has any experience fishing rivers (because it works and lends itself well to covering water which in turn results in fish) and it saves frustration for everyone. You wouldn't drive to the river on the left side of the road because it suited you that day, why buck a practical convention? Furthermore, fenceposting will seldom get you fish, covering water will.
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There's no need to spend more than 10-15 minutes in one spot if you are not catching fish after a few casts and a couple of presentation switches.
You are either:
a) Not getting your presentation down to the fish, so your effort is futile.
or
b) There's no fish there.
A Vedder old-timer averaging 50-60 fish per season told me this a couple of years ago, and I have finally started to listen. ;D
Of course, I will now hear from the guy who said they got a steelhead after having fished the same spot for two hours without success.
Or maybe not, no one will admit they are fence posters publicly, will they? ;)
i totally agree with you.
funny thing is i'm familiar with a lot of guys on this forum and other sites...i have yet to see a seasoned veteran walk away from a hole where they're getting multiple hits....usually they'll stick around until they're convinced the fish are no longer biting...i'm not talking about 15-30 minutes... more like an hour if not more.
i think some people miscalculate the actual time they spend at a spot, especially when the bite is on....not to say that everyone does it...i remember years back i had someone pass me and end up a few kilometer below before i even finished working the run i was at, but in my eyes, he didn't work the water hard enough.
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i don't think of it as special treatment...i think of it as circumstances and an opportunity to work around the person fence posting.
with so many kms of river and knowing the tendencies of these fish, why should i let one spot stop me from doing what most steelheaders do? "move on".... it almost sounds like you've got a bad case of entitlement.
You think I have a case of entitlement? How cute.
I am entitled to fish the river and you are not entitled to stop me.
Between Peach and the train bridge you will find fenceposters every couple hundred meters. You can choose to not fish those areas or you can fish right through them. No one should be giving give them space.
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i totally agree with you.
funny thing is i'm familiar with a lot of guys on this forum and other sites...i have yet to see a seasoned veteran walk away from a hole where they're getting multiple hits....usually they'll stick around until they're convinced the fish are no longer biting...i'm not talking about 15-30 minutes... more like an hour if not more.
;D
"No longer biting" being the key phrase. I'll admit it, I don't give up a spot if the fish are there AND they are biting.
Do you? Does anyone? :D
The only time I'd give up a hot spot is for a buddy or family member if we are fishing together that day.
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if i go 10-15 casts with out a fish in the same hole, i leave.
Once a fish is caught.. it tends to spook the other fish. just personal experience..
i've stayed at holes that I felt hits at and caught. Never to find that elusive 2nd hookup for steelies. :-\
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I don't necessarily agree with you Brian the Fisherman.
I've seen 5 steelies come out of about 5 feet of water on the Vedder before and the same thing on the Chehalis but this time it was three steelies. :o
Everday is different, every fish is different, stay if you want to stay, move if you want to move but the key is to have respect and etiquette when doing so. :) On the busier rivers, the popular holes will have both fence posts and transients. On the lesser known rivers and the lesser known spots, you will mostly find transients.
All anyone needs to do is put the shoe on the other foot once in a while and think if you would want that to happen to you. :)
Experience also goes a long way too.
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Steelhead react differently to other fish being hooked in a body of water than say salmon. Salmon most of the time get turned off the bite while steelhead will turn on, not all of the time but that's what I have found most of the time. If there's snaggers then I'd just move away from them a bit and start looking.
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;D
"No longer biting" being the key phrase. I'll admit it, I don't give up a spot if the fish are there AND they are biting.
Do you? Does anyone? :D
The only time I'd give up a hot spot is for a buddy or family member if we are fishing together that day.
First honest answer i've read thus far.
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First honest answer i've read thus far.
I second that . Some are just far to anal in trying to enforce their own interpretation of "etiquette" .
Some guys just should not go to the Chilliwack if their comments are to be believed . I'm certainly no fence poster , but who's to say others can't do it?? And no , you don't have to give up your spot because of some one else's rules . Good luck with your enforcement of these rules . Maybe some ought to go to the Coq or Skagit as the Chilliwack is far to crowded a river to go by these rules . In most cases you might as well just go back home because these ideas won't work on the Chilliwack . Guys do turn up everywhere and some are even moving upstream covering water , starting from the bottom of runs working toward the top , as that is the direction they are going .
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I second that . Some are just far to anal in trying to enforce their own interpretation of "etiquette" .
Some guys just should not go to the Chilliwack if their comments are to be believed . I'm certainly no fence poster , but who's to say others can't do it?? And no , you don't have to give up your spot because of some one else's rules . Good luck with your enforcement of these rules . Maybe some ought to go to the Coq or Skagit as the Chilliwack is far to crowded a river to go by these rules . In most cases you might as well just go back home because these ideas won't work on the Chilliwack . Guys do turn up everywhere and some are even moving upstream covering water , starting from the bottom of runs working toward the top , as that is the direction they are going .
I agree with most of what you say, but low-holing is still not cool, even if it is the Vedder.
People shouldn't work the flow upstream, it is against common sense.
Let me explain: when the fish holds in the current, it faces upstream....expecting for food to come towards it. When you come from below, it means you first cast over the fish for your your presentation to come down towards the fish. In the process, you will spook the fish, which will, instinctively, move away.
Always work the flow downstream.
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The only time I'd give up a hot spot is for a buddy or family member if we are fishing together that day.
And I thank you for that when we fished together last April ;D
Milo, you are fast becoming FWR's favourite trusted and respected no BS guy. Great posts IMO :)
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with the large number of people fishing the vedder , there will always be someone who is unhappy , I just try and leave as much space between me and the other fisherman . I wouldn't want to be crowded so why would I do it to someone .
Treat others as you would like to be treated .
I was however "hearded" off of a section of river today . I watched 3 people stay on a run for 15mins , and never move down . So I went to a run that was atleast 100yrds away , and all of a sudden the 3 people were practically running down the river while casting . Once they were with in 50feet of me I just left and watch from the trail . They moved back up river to there original spots . LOL . I guess they thought they owned that entire sections of water . I didn't get mad , it was funny to watch actually . It was like they were territorial animals guarding there land .
There is lots of open spaces and runs , you just gotta walk ( a lot ) .
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I agree with most of what you say, but low-holing is still not cool, even if it is the Vedder.
People shouldn't work the flow upstream, it is against common sense.
Let me explain: when the fish holds in the current, it faces upstream....expecting for food to come towards it. When you come from below, it means you first cast over the fish for your your presentation to come down towards the fish. In the process, you will spook the fish, which will, instinctively, move away.
Always work the flow downstream.
On the flip side, approaching from the downstream side could allow you to avoid spooking the fish that are, as you say, facing upstream. The fact is, the upstream down approach is more common, so if you go against the grain, whatever your reasoning, you are going to run into conflict with other anglers (this should not be your goal).
if i go 10-15 casts with out a fish in the same hole, i leave.
Once a fish is caught.. it tends to spook the other fish. just personal experience..
i've stayed at holes that I felt hits at and caught. Never to find that elusive 2nd hookup for steelies. :-\
I watched a guy last season walk into a very small and fast run just above the Crossing. After one or two casts he had a fish on and he played it downstream where he released a 15 pounder. He returned to the same run and after a couple more casts he had the mate on and played it down and released a 17 pounder. That said, if you are not getting fish, chances are you will not. Think of how many times you hear the "I caught it on my first cast" versus the "I hooked that fish after pounding the run for an hour."
I second that . Some are just far to anal in trying to enforce their own interpretation of "etiquette" .
Some guys just should not go to the Chilliwack if their comments are to be believed . I'm certainly no fence poster , but who's to say others can't do it?? And no , you don't have to give up your spot because of some one else's rules . Good luck with your enforcement of these rules . Maybe some ought to go to the Coq or Skagit as the Chilliwack is far to crowded a river to go by these rules . In most cases you might as well just go back home because these ideas won't work on the Chilliwack . Guys do turn up everywhere and some are even moving upstream covering water , starting from the bottom of runs working toward the top , as that is the direction they are going .
You have missed the whole point of "etiquette." These are not "rules" to be "enforced" at all. These are social conventions for behaviour that promote a sense of predictability and good conduct that enhance the cordial nature of fishing. You should not need referees to "enforce" these conventions, as you should consider how you would want to be treated. No one wants to be low holed and cut off from finishing fishing a run they had started before any one else was there. The fact that others are doing it to you is not a reason to behave in the same manner (reducing to the lowest common denominator).
I was fishing a run this morning. I was alone (thankfully) on my side and was swinging flies. There were two other guys on the other side floating roe or wool, one was way at the top of the run, the other had reached about half way down. Then in comes two other guys and right away they set up right below the lower guy, causing him to have to stop and "fence post" as the two guys took up the rest of the run between them. They did not say a word to the other guys until they have finished fishing the lower end of the run (they fished it for an hour or so, and had "rotated" among themselves, walking down and then going back up to a point right below the original guy). I could hardly believe what I was watching. When they were done they walked up past the other guys (who had long since stopped fishing and had stood chatting for a awhile). One of the "low-holers" walked right by them without a word but the other stopped and appeared to strike up a conversation with one of the original guys. I could not hear the conversation, but I have to say I give full kudos to the original guy for he sounded very polite and did not toss the young guy in the river. Unfortunately for the original guys, by the time he finished talking to the low-holer, another pair of fishermen (a father and son pair) had taken up the lower end of the run for themselves. These guys certainly seemed to have a sense of entitlement.
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You have missed the whole point of "etiquette." These are not "rules" to be "enforced" at all. These are social conventions for behaviour that promote a sense of predictability and good conduct that enhance the cordial nature of fishing. You should not need referees to "enforce" these conventions, as you should consider how you would want to be treated. No one wants to be low holed and cut off from finishing fishing a run they had started before any one else was there. The fact that others are doing it to you is not a reason to behave in the same manner (reducing to the lowest common denominator).
I think you may have missed the point of Penn's comments. I echo his sentiments in that the Vedder/Chilliwack is a river system frequented by a wide variety of fishermen both in experience and style/expertise as well as attitude. If you are going to fish a river system like the Vedder and expect everyone to use "conventional techniques" that demonstrate "proper etiquette", then you will always be disappointed.
I can't imagine fishing a river and coming away upset each time. Your experience on the river is what you make it, not what someone else makes it......
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I agree with most of what you say, but low-holing is still not cool, even if it is the Vedder.
People shouldn't work the flow upstream, it is against common sense.
Let me explain: when the fish holds in the current, it faces upstream....expecting for food to come towards it. When you come from below, it means you first cast over the fish for your your presentation to come down towards the fish. In the process, you will spook the fish, which will, instinctively, move away.
Always work the flow downstream.
While I agree with the idea of working downstream, I will work the river upstream as well. I have several sections on the Vedder where I work the river downstream, then cross the river and work the same part of the river upstream, ending up where I started (usually where my vehicle is parked). I don't believe I spook fish any more when I work my way upstream than when working my way downstream.
If I come across someone working their way downstream I do let them have the right of way if we end up in the same run at the same time. I just fish around people that fence post.... :)
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On the flip side, approaching from the downstream side could allow you to avoid spooking the fish that are, as you say, facing upstream. The fact is, the upstream down approach is more common, so if you go against the grain, whatever your reasoning, you are going to run into conflict with other anglers (this should not be your goal).
I've heard that argument before, Sandman, but I still can't picture myself casting over the fish upstream.
Also, one would have to reel in /strip like a maniac to get any sort of gain over the slack/belly that will form with the line drifting downstream towards you. Not conducive to detecting bites if they occur.
Maybe on very slow and shallower runs... ???
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...If you are going to fish a river system like the Vedder and expect everyone to use "conventional techniques" that demonstrate "proper etiquette", then you will always be disappointed.
I do not expect other fishermen to use "conventional techniques" or to use "proper etiquette." I expect other fishermen to behave badly. That way I am never disappointed, only occasionally surprised (by those that use proper etiquette).
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I do not expect other fishermen to use "conventional techniques" or to use "proper etiquette." I expect other fishermen to behave badly. That way I am never disappointed, only occasionally surprised (by those that use proper etiquette).
;D I think you and I could fish together! ;D
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And I thank you for that when we fished together last April ;D
Milo, you are fast becoming FWR's favourite trusted and respected no BS guy. Great posts IMO :)
You are too kind, Dave. :)
I am just a simple guy who says what he means and means what he says. I guess that's why I was predisposed to fail in politics. :(
Like any other person, sometimes I am out to lunch, but I will be quick to acknowledge that I am wrong.
You are among the people I keep in the highest regard - a gentleman and a scholar, yet outdoorsy to the bone.
As far as this discussion is concerned, Matt couldn't have started this thread at a better time...I am sure many of the new steelheaders will be paying more attention to people around them once they understand that steelheading and salmon fishing are two very different games. I wish more old-timers chimed in.
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I've heard that argument before, Sandman, but I still can't picture myself casting over the fish upstream.
Also, one would have to reel in /strip like a maniac to get any sort of gain over the slack/belly that will form with the line drifting downstream towards you. Not conducive to detecting bites if they occur.
Maybe on very slow and shallower runs... ???
nymphing is always done upstream.
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I wish more old-timers chimed in.
[/quote]
I not sure if I am qualified as "old timer" or not but what you said, Milo is very straight forward and I can not say any better.
Being fishing the Chill-Vedder for steelhead for 32 yrs and I have seem lots changes. But attitudes towards the fisheries is more conversation concern these days whereas, in my early days of steeheading crowds were less and there more fish to be catch. Limits was quite liberal, barb hooks was allow and for brief period wild steelheads was allow to be killed when I first started steeheading.
I go steelheading not to prove to anybody that or brag about how many steelies I caught or how many hatchery clones I killed but to enjoy, relax and B.S with other friendly fisherman that is what steelheading meant to me. I do not take pictures of steelheads anymore and one that I do catch are in my memories that will last for long times.
Enjoy.
Silex-user
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okay I'm open for suggestions, but my opinion is the river is just to busy to have a syncronized system. I find old timers and newbie's breaking ettiquite. last time i was there there were people fishing from top of a run, people coming in from the bottom, people posting in one spot, people fishing from the bank from the other side, people fishing the opposite side going in opposite direction(around a poster), people fishing a run at different paces. This is just one spot.
I was at a spot as first light came and i guess i had a old timers spot so mr. ettiquitte stood 5 feet away from me and made sure he got his drift and told me young guys have no rules and what's the matter you think it's your river.
We ended up talking it out and we all got along,
It goes to show that if theres a known holding water, watch out ettiquite.
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i follow two very simple rules.
1 Never walk in below someone working a run.
2 Always leave ample room for the person below you and if someone is fence posting...ask to leap frog (*reminder*) there's 40kms of river that i can't possibly cover in a day.
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I think you may have missed the point of Penn's comments. I echo his sentiments in that the Vedder/Chilliwack is a river system frequented by a wide variety of fishermen both in experience and style/expertise as well as attitude. If you are going to fish a river system like the Vedder and expect everyone to use "conventional techniques" that demonstrate "proper etiquette", then you will always be disappointed.
I can't imagine fishing a river and coming away upset each time. Your experience on the river is what you make it, not what someone else makes it......
This is correct Sandman . I understand etiquette , it just is not practical(some of the suggestions being made here) all the time and there is no one-size fits all "rules" that apply everywhere .
For instance , I never said I fish a run backwards as some seemed to understand my post . I pointed out that often guys end up hiking UPSTREAM and fish as they go . Do you or any others who object to the idea only ever hike downstream ? What if you went a mile downstream and you don't have a return vehicle waiting at the bottom , do you walk all the way back with no fishing ? Or do you walk to the top end of every run , no matter how long it is , and fish it top to bottom and then do every run that way all the way back up steam for a mile or more as you are returning? Do you ,if you should see a guy 500 yards upstream go all the way up even if he's at the very top of a stretch and stand 50 feet above him and follow him down ? For that matter what if there's a guy 500yds above you and you walk all the way up only to spot another guy up past him and another past that guy , where do you start ? Go home ?This is the Chilliwack and these ideas more often than not , don't work here and you might as well go home if you follow these rules to the letter .
Sometimes common sense comes into play is what I was trying to say . There are other reasons for hiking upstream too such as the fact that as the river winds around in some places , you have to do this , to get to certain areas due to the geography. Who goes a mile or two upstream with out fishing at all - no one I've ever seen at the Chilliwack . Every single guy I've observed does this in certain spots , unless they are racing to a specific spot . But generally guys go upstream and then return , fishing both ways as they go .
No I don't low-hole guys and that is not what I'm suggesting , even though it happens to me all the time . Had it happen to me yesterday many times . When guys are doing that to you , then just leap frog them back and don't worry about it . Like wise guys who are fence posting .Nothing unethical about fenceposting either BTW , kinda boring , but up each guy . I've run into some old timers who fence post because they can't walk far any more and some who like a certain spot to wait for fish to move through , nothing wrong with it .
As far as me referring to "rules " instead of etiquette , the way some have presented it , that is exactly the way it comes across . Some saying things like ," no matter how slow a guy moves downstream you don't pass him , you just sit down and wait " comes across as just that , rules , and smacks of elitism not etiquette .
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Penn, I was referring to your comment "Good luck with your enforcement of these rules." As I said, etiquette is a set of conventions, not rules to be enforced. As such, they are much more beneficial on crowded rivers than on less crowded rivers (if there is no one else around, then it really doesn't matter how you fish, does it?). By practicing good etiquette, you can ensure that everyone enjoys the day on the river. The approach that we see practiced on the Vedder is, in a word, selfish (as long as I get my drift in, screw everyone else).
As for your comments about working a river upstream, I want to point out that the whole concept of rotational angling is in reference to specific runs, not about kilometer long sections of the river (which likely contains any number of separate runs, riffles, and pools). There are very few "runs" on the Vedder that are 500 meters long (that would be 5 football fields). While you can certainly start fishing in between two anglers fishing a kilometer long stretch of river, I would hope you would not step into the same "run" below another angler.
It really doesn't matter to me how you hike the river, but I personally will often hike back up a couple of kilometers to my car without stopping to fish water I have already fished. Like wise, I have hiked a kilometer up the river to fish back down to my car (there is a spot mid river where I do this all the time). While I am fishing specific "runs" I almost exclusively fish down the flow, especially if there are other anglers fishing the same section as they will most likely be fishing in the same direction as I. Even when I am alone I will fish a run from the riffle to the tail-out, and then walk back up if I want to work it again (maybe dead drift it this time with a floating line). Perhaps the fact that I fly-fish plays a factor in the number of times I work upstream against the flow (it is simply easier to work the run from top down, stepping down a couple of feet every couple of casts).
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nymphing is always done upstream.
Really? I know that you cast upstream, but I didn't know you also work your way upstream. ???
You sure of this?
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Working a river upstream is done usually on smaller streams or creeks while trout fishing. If you approach trout walking upriver, there is less chance of you spooking the fish and taking them off the bite. Now with Steelhead you have to think a little differently. The fish has come into the river to spawn. They are not going to be taking residence in a prime lie of the river. Therefore fishing for them while working a river downstream makes a lot of sense.
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I'm all for etiquette Sandman don't get me wrong . When I'm commenting on "rules" I wasn't directing it at stuff you commented . Some of the other stuff being passed off as etiquette I don't see as such , as I already pointed out above . Some guys saying stuff like "no matter how slow a guy is moving along " I got an issue with . If you are a guy who wants to work a long run one foot at a time on crowed river and it takes you an hour to get through it , and you are expecting all that water down below you to be your own exclusive water , you are not practicing etiquette , just elitist selfishness under the guise of etiquette , and are nothing more than a fence poster wanting a whole run for your self in reality .
That's what I'm getting at and if you are like that , like I said , good luck with your enforcement and have a nice day doing it .
One other point , if you want guys to start above you , give them some reasonable space above you , like move along or expect they are going in below you . Don't expect hog large stretches for yourself . If I see a guy way at the very top end of a large stretch of river and he occupies that space for any length of time , I'm not sitting down waiting .
I don't have confrontations at the river . I ask guys if they are moving down etc. , most say go ahead past if they are being slow in one area . I myself move along pretty fast . Like some have mentioned,guys do move at different speeds , common sense and courtesy go a long way most of time .
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Really? I know that you cast upstream, but I didn't know you also work your way upstream. ???
You sure of this?
Yes walking up stream casting in front of you is common practice for trout.
Vedder is a different story.
Just pointing out not all fishing is downwards.
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I see a lot of folks taking 3 or 4 casts and moving down the run almost running it seems. I personally like to stay for a good 10min, sometimes 15min and working my way down a run covering all the water I feel is right according to the river situation. Im not sure but I guess Im fence posting according to this thread, but its what I feel works for me and I feel satisfied about covering the water im fishing.
I think everyone has a different pace and what is right or wrong is debatable, but its amazing how far a simple "hello" or "hows it going" seems to go to keeping the peace so to speak....
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Working a river upstream is done usually on smaller streams or creeks while trout fishing. If you approach trout walking upriver, there is less chance of you spooking the fish and taking them off the bite. Now with Steelhead you have to think a little differently. The fish has come into the river to spawn. They are not going to be taking residence in a prime lie of the river. Therefore fishing for them while working a river downstream makes a lot of sense.
Yes walking up stream casting in front of you is common practice for trout.
Vedder is a different story.
Just pointing out not all fishing is downwards.
Thanks for clarifying, guys. :)
I don't chase trout in moving waters, only on lakes, so I wouldn't know.
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I see a lot of folks taking 3 or 4 casts and moving down the run almost running it seems. I personally like to stay for a good 10min, sometimes 15min and working my way down a run covering all the water I feel is right according to the river situation. Im not sure but I guess Im fence posting according to this thread, but its what I feel works for me and I feel satisfied about covering the water im fishing.
I think everyone has a different pace and what is right or wrong is debatable, but its amazing how far a simple "hello" or "hows it going" seems to go to keeping the peace so to speak....
That's probably about the pace I do for a good run , I wouldn't think of you as a fence poster . But I have seen guys way down stream from me,I'm working the water at a pace like you describe and get upto the guy below me with out detecting a single step down . Ask him if he's moving down , only to have him tell me he is , when I can't see any . That IMO is fence posting and will move past him leaving him decent space of course , but he don't own all the water below him . He's just trying to be a hog , unless of course he says go ahead move past , that is .
I had a couple guys doing just that , stayed in one spot for a long time because they had caught a fish there , but they did tell me to go ahead past . I was probably about 100 yds downstream when I caught a fish , and suddenly they started moving down stream too , but made no move until I caught one .
But like you said all was good because everyone involved was polite .
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nymphing is always done upstream.
That isn't correct. Can be done downstream, across the current or upstream.
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I started fishing for steelhead on the vedder in 1966.There was a lot more fish and less fisherpeople.Moved to Vancouver Island in 1978.I returned to fish the Vedder-chilli. system up untill 1992.More and more people fishing and less room to fish.I fish with a center-pin so casting space is about 15ft. between fisherman both upstream and down stream from me.I had a few altercations with people trying to fish between the person above and below me.If they won't listen to reason,a float or sinker bouncing off there head drives the point home. Call me what you want over that statement. As for the rest of the water you can fish above me or below me.If you catch a fish and have to chase it downstream to land it do people give you back the area that you were fishing iin? That is my question for you who have to fish in ever increasing crowds.
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"No longer biting" being the key phrase. I'll admit it, I don't give up a spot if the fish are there AND they are biting.
Do you? Does anyone?
The only time I'd give up a hot spot is for a buddy or family member if we are fishing together that day.
However, true rotational angling would have you land your fish, step out of the run and go back to the top of the run if you wished to have another kick at the can.
I do realize that the chances of that being witnessed on the Veddar would be akin to winning the lottery.
It is the Veddar and is more often fished as if it were the shoreline of a lake or a bar on the Fraser.
Having said that, I too would spend more time in a productive spot (particularily during Salmon season) before moving on.
But waiting for Steelhead to find me? It don't work like that.
It may happen and perhaps enforces a fenceposters reason for doing so; the same way that most anglers make a point of fishing a spot where they 've caught or seen fish caught in the past.
Not all fence posters do it on purpose, some are older and not as nimble or sure footed as they were in the past.
Ask and they would probably most assuredly encourage you to pass and perhaps offer some advice, a tip or story from the old days.
Don't ask and you might get an earful, not so much for going below but for lacking the manners and demonstrating proper river etiquette in doing so.
New guys are told to cover all the water and in doing so take longer to cover a run.
More experienced anglers can generally read water better and therefore move through a run faster.
And the Top rods (who get out way too often ;)) know the sweet spots in any given run, have a curcuit and probably spend more time getting from one run to another than they actually do fishing any of them.
Fenceposters? ask and go around.
Low-holers? Some are new and don't know (perhaps educate). Some are just plain Ignorant (deal with as you see fit ::).
Life's too short and as I'm getting older I try not to be overly confrontational (I'd be too busy to get any fishing done otherwise)
I try to keep my blood pressure under control so I just either wait or move on.
I treat others (for the most part) how I'd like to be treated.
I'd rather leave the river as the nice, helpful guy NOT the Frkn' jackhole who caught a fish.
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I do not expect other fishermen to use "conventional techniques" or to use "proper etiquette." I expect other fishermen to behave badly. That way I am never disappointed, only occasionally surprised (by those that use proper etiquette).
The best post out of the many in this thread. I fish alone most of the time because i fish whatever,whenever.I always try and strike up a conversation with others i encounter working a run.Anglers feel less intimidated when i approach a hole by my lonesome and communicate with them thier intentions.I am succesful because i cover alot of water in a day and avoid the crowds.I work a circuit based on the level of the flow/ water clarity and insider knowlege from my buds on the river.Fence posters dont understand to be succesful you need to keep your feet moving.You can always come back to the run later in the day.Cant tell you how many times ive returned to a hole later on in the day to have a instant hookup.I start my season after the xmas rush.See you out there and good luck!
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prior to the river mucking up yesterday, i fished behind a guy who just happened to get to the river seconds before me... together we must have covered about 12 runs before he finally got into fish...in a time span of 35 minutes he lost one and landed/released one wild...i respectfully asked to leap frog to give him his space and about 15 minutes after i got below him, he hooked and bonked a nice 9lb hatch.
now if you do the math, he spent almost an hour in one spot...would you accuse him of fence posting after walking for miles to finally find fish? i think not...that's the whole reason why we steelheaders move from one spot to another... you'd be lying if you said otherwise.
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However, true rotational angling would have you land your fish, step out of the run and go back to the top of the run if you wished to have another kick at the can.
I do realize that the chances of that being witnessed on the Veddar would be akin to winning the lottery.
It is the Veddar and is more often fished as if it were the shoreline of a lake or a bar on the Fraser.
Having said that, I too would spend more time in a productive spot (particularily during Salmon season) before moving on.
But waiting for Steelhead to find me? It don't work like that.
It may happen and perhaps enforces a fenceposters reason for doing so; the same way that most anglers make a point of fishing a spot where they 've caught or seen fish caught in the past.
Not all fence posters do it on purpose, some are older and not as nimble or sure footed as they were in the past.
Ask and they would probably most assuredly encourage you to pass and perhaps offer some advice, a tip or story from the old days.
Don't ask and you might get an earful, not so much for going below but for lacking the manners and demonstrating proper river etiquette in doing so.
New guys are told to cover all the water and in doing so take longer to cover a run.
More experienced anglers can generally read water better and therefore move through a run faster.
And the Top rods (who get out way too often ;)) know the sweet spots in any given run, have a curcuit and probably spend more time getting from one run to another than they actually do fishing any of them.
Fenceposters? ask and go around.
Low-holers? Some are new and don't know (perhaps educate). Some are just plain Ignorant (deal with as you see fit ::).
Life's too short and as I'm getting older I try not to be overly confrontational (I'd be too busy to get any fishing done otherwise)
I try to keep my blood pressure under control so I just either wait or move on.
I treat others (for the most part) how I'd like to be treated.
I'd rather leave the river as the nice, helpful guy NOT the Frkn' jackhole who caught a fish.
Good post, FOCB.
I was expecting someone to mention true rotational angling. In a perfect world where rotational angling is implemented and observed by everyone on a given run, I would go to the top of the run. Not on the Vedder, though, unless the people fishing above me are in my party.
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great thread.
for being ethical one should not care what others are doing. what that matters more is what that same person is doing.
I always start from the top of the run and fish the run only if the it is not too busy. I will never "low-hole" anyone during steelhead season. I just don't care what the others are doing and what reasons they have for their behaviors.
I just do that what I expect from other reasonable and ethical behaving anglers.
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I guess I'm an old timer on the Vedder. I too started fishing it in 1966 and like island dude have seen alot of changes. I sometimes try to relate Steelhead fishing to Golf to people new to the sport. I ask them if they were going to take up Golf would they just go buy a set of clubs, walk on to a course and start flailing away? That's basically what alot of new fishermen do on the Vedder. People don't bother learning what is proper behaviour. if the same person tryed that crap on a golf course you know what the result would be. I have been priviliged to fish with some of the very best Steelheaders on the Chilliwack / Vedder system and have learned alot. The most important thing they taught me was the code of conduct that they carried forward from their peers. It really boils down to being respectful to the environment and other fishermen. I have had a well known guide that's on this forum low hole me.
In fact the same guy did it to once in the canal a couple years ago and again today. I guess he thinks because he is a guide that it gives him the right. I try to give new fishermen as much advise as I can. Sometimes the best thing a new fisherman can do is open a dialog and ask questions. You will be surprised how most of us old timers will respond.
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I guess I'm an old timer on the Vedder. I too started fishing it in 1966 and like island dude have seen alot of changes. I sometimes try to relate Steelhead fishing to Golf to people new to the sport. I ask them if they were going to take up Golf would they just go buy a set of clubs, walk on to a course and start flailing away? That's basically what alot of new fishermen do on the Vedder. People don't bother learning what is proper behaviour. if the same person tryed that crap on a golf course you know what the result would be. I have been priviliged to fish with some of the very best Steelheaders on the Chilliwack / Vedder system and have learned alot. The most important thing they taught me was the code of conduct that they carried forward from their peers. It really boils down to being respectful to the environment and other fishermen. I have had a well known guide that's on this forum low hole me.
In fact the same guy did it to once in the canal a couple years ago and again today. I guess he thinks because he is a guide that it gives him the right. I try to give new fishermen as much advise as I can. Sometimes the best thing a new fisherman can do is open a dialog and ask questions. You will be surprised how most of us old timers will respond.
Guides are under alot of pressure to produce fish for clients on a river that is just too dam crowded.They are on foot like every other tom,dick and harry competing with the masses.On a river like the Stamp,its a different story because they fish out of a boat in a river where alot of it is not accessable to the bank maggot.Its a huge advantage compared to a flow like the Vedd.
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It is BS wherever it happens, and it happens on the Stamp too.
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It is BS wherever it happens, and it happens on the Stamp too.
I agree. Intense competition,even more so when its your lively hood. Thats why i got out of it. I fish for for myself and enjoy that alot more.
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As fishermen (and fisherwomen) we need to realize that these systems are going to continue to see increased pressure. As more people get involved in the sport and the resources are slowly dwindling, conflicts are going to increase.
They way I see it we have two choices; we can implement a code of ethics and practices and do our best to teach others on the river, or we can wait till the conflicts get worse and the powers that be will step in and start restricting the river further (flyfish only, non-retention, or other such measures)
It’s our fishery and our responsibility.
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This probably applies a lot to steel head, which I've never done but yeah for other systems I watch my casts and keep good distance when possible and it's problem free. A must do especially in peg leg during peak sockeye season haha. I remember getting knotted up with about 10 other fisherman at once forming a giant birds nest. Once you learn the right techniques and get the hang of fishing then it's easier to go from busy to more private spots and still catch fish
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Peg leg is no place to learn anything let alone etiquette. But that's just my opinion and I speak my mind and people don't like that sometimes.
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To Dennis t, I don't believe this guy guides on the Vedder for Steelhead, he was just out sportfishing. I guess I look at guides as the ambassadeurs of our sport and they should be held at a higher standard. I have fished with guides all over BC and for the most part the "real guides" are first class people on and off the river, guiding or not.
I have fished the Stamp River with and without guides and the good ones are very respectfull of bank fishermen and their fellow guides. These people are very passionate about fishing and it shows. There are others that only see dollar signs and sometimes stoop to unscrupulous tactics to get their clients fish and ultimately fill their wallets.
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To Dennis t, I don't believe this guy guides on the Vedder for Steelhead, he was just out sportfishing. I guess I look at guides as the ambassadeurs of our sport and they should be held at a higher standard. I have fished with guides all over BC and for the most part the "real guides" are first class people on and off the river, guiding or not.
I have fished the Stamp River with and without guides and the good ones are very respectfull of bank fishermen and their fellow guides. These people are very passionate about fishing and it shows. There are others that only see dollar signs and sometimes stoop to unscrupulous tactics to get their clients fish and ultimately fill their wallets.
I agree with you.Guides need to lead by example.But theres always a few bad apples in every bunch i suppose.I myself have been fortunate enough to have guided and been guided all over this great province of ours.Its a tough job and a stressful one to constantly have to put clients on fish.Very competive line of work.The good ones work thier arses off and respect other anglers.If this fellow is just fishing for himself,then he should know better.
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I think everyone who fishes the vedder has seen or heard stories about this particular guides antics cut below my buddy last year.