Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: younggun on February 06, 2012, 10:00:07 PM
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This is note a joke... Take a look at what is being proposed for the province.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UgvY6zBc3q4#! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UgvY6zBc3q4#!)
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Thanks for putting this up. It sickens me that BC is even contemplating this risk.
This issue is much bigger than a fish-related issue, Skeena steelhead and salmon are just a drop in the bucket relative to what will be lost should a spill occur.
It isn't good enough to merely frown and go back to what you were doing. I implore you to get involved, write a letter, get your friends and family to write letters and get involved in any way possible.
Ralf Kroning of the Steelhead Society of BC has put together a good letter sample letter and provided quite a bit of information about the pipeline. It can be found here: http://www.steelheadsociety.org/news/enbridge-northern-gateway-pipeline-brief.
If you're better in economics than I am, perhaps economist former CEO of ICBC Robyn Allan's report on why the Northern Gateway pipeline will increase the price of oil in Canada will provide you fodder for a letter. http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=robyn%20allan%20northern%20gate&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDQQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fafl.org%2Findex.php%2FDownload-document%2F566-2012-January-Allan-Northern-Gateway-Assessment.html&ei=HcIwT_ToMebQ2wWBxfTkBw&usg=AFQjCNGW94pwK1KR-EI9FnlWBVQDUeQpEA (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=robyn%20allan%20northern%20gate&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDQQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fafl.org%2Findex.php%2FDownload-document%2F566-2012-January-Allan-Northern-Gateway-Assessment.html&ei=HcIwT_ToMebQ2wWBxfTkBw&usg=AFQjCNGW94pwK1KR-EI9FnlWBVQDUeQpEA)
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El Presidente Harper is over in China getting some coaching on how to deal with The Environmentalist, ecologists or other nay sayers right now;or is it is he's their guaranteeing that Foreign owned oil companies will have their oil pumped across BC. to Kitimat and to China.
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Despite what Enbridge says, an oil spill is inevitable as death and taxes. Just a question of when
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Simple question. Do you use vehicles or boats in your daily life? Yeah....... everyone want to go to heaven but nobody wants to die.
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Good post! I'm sharing with everyone and hope that everyone else will! Think of all the steelie and salmon waters that will be affected on the way!
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Simple question. Do you use vehicles or boats in your daily life? Yeah....... everyone want to go to heaven but nobody wants to die.
Well, I'm sure all the environmentally conscientious outdoors people are hopping in their big, electric 4x4's as they head out to the Chilliwack ;D A common theme that I'm noticing is "Why don't they refine the oil where they find it? Then we don't need the pipelines." Then how will they get the refined product to the market?
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Simple question. Do you use vehicles or boats in your daily life? Yeah....... everyone want to go to heaven but nobody wants to die.
I don't think this is a valid argument. Nobody is or will debate the need for oil at the present date. I'm not even sure I'm against the tar sands, as dirty as tar sand oil extraction is. I'm definitely not against oil pipelines in general, there is an obvious need. However, that oil is leaving Canada at discount prices to go to China. That in no way can benefit me by providing me with oil for my boat or truck.
I am strongly against a pipeline that runs such a risky route through major watersheds (773 water crossings IIRC), pumps it into large tankers which have to make at least three hairpin turns then on their route out to sea and traverse very treacherous storm-prone water to do so before the oil is shipped at discount prices to China.
I think you should reed Robyn Allan's economic analysis of the project and why the Northern Gateway Project will drive the price of oil up $2 to $3/ barrel. http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=robyn%20allan%20northern%20gate&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDQQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fafl.org%2Findex.php%2FDownload-document%2F566-2012-January-Allan-Northern-Gateway-Assessment.html&ei=HcIwT_ToMebQ2wWBxfTkBw&usg=AFQjCNGW94pwK1KR-EI9FnlWBVQDUeQpEA (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=robyn%20allan%20northern%20gate&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDQQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fafl.org%2Findex.php%2FDownload-document%2F566-2012-January-Allan-Northern-Gateway-Assessment.html&ei=HcIwT_ToMebQ2wWBxfTkBw&usg=AFQjCNGW94pwK1KR-EI9FnlWBVQDUeQpEA)
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Reminds me of all the barges heading to Japan with raw logs and my buddy isnt working because they dont have any logs.
Just doesnt make sense.
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I'm sure Enbridge will find economists willing to shoot down the Allan report easily enough ... the quick quote from their rep. indicates they're working on their rebuttal ... "Enbridge representative Paul Stanway said the company can’t comment in detail about the report because it is evidence tabled before the NEB-CEAA at its pipeline hearings, but it will have a chance to rebut the report in September.
Stanway confirmed, though, the projected price increase in the application.
“The price of oil in Canada is estimated to increase as a result of market diversity and exposure to global pricing,” he said. “That’s correct, but that is taken into account in our estimation of an overall benefit of about $270 billion to the Canadian economy.”"
I think in the end it will simply be a case of whether the army of opponents becomes large enough. Statements like "an overall benefit of about $270 billion to the Canadian economy" will surely draw plenty of supporters so it promises to be a huge battle.
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I doubt society (Canadian in general and BC in particular ) will see a net gain? All this will serve is, as has been pointed out a direct route to China of Oil that would otherwise be on the market and subject to the ups and downs of the rules of supply and demand. Nothing more!
The tar will also be processed without responsible environmental guidelines and used to power industries that are also less than environmentally responsible making goods that will then compete on the open market with goods produced under stricter legislation. In affect we are supporting the lowering of environmental standards and the welfare of working people. Instead of forcing the Chinese or? to raise their standards, we are rewarding them for not doing so.
Not to say anything of removing this oil from the NA market and therefore the localised rules of supply and demand will allow for Big oil to reason price hikes.
This will be also a way for the US, to have some control and/or have leverage over China. China is making private deals worldwide for it's commodities and is bypassing the system of fair market demand. Akin to the Log situation and coal of the eighties.
when or if this pipeline is built and hope not, The US will add it to the list of Strategic needs and use all the power required to control it. Do not kid yourself that WE Canadians will have any say on it's use.
http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/pub705.pdf
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Simple question. Do you use vehicles or boats in your daily life? Yeah....... everyone want to go to heaven but nobody wants to die.
Yep, and therefore should have the right in demanding that the fuel used is processed in as enviromentaly safe manner as possible.
I am also Canadian and a BC resident and my input or opinion should count in the desicion making process, only one voice but never the less I'm entitled to an opinion. Some look at it as, this is a couple of years of work building the thing. I see the likelyhood of decades of work repairing the damage done. Not an equitable situation!
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Simple question. Do you use vehicles or boats in your daily life? Yeah....... everyone want to go to heaven but nobody wants to die.
yet anything made from oil can be made with hemp and hemp has actually more uses.
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So the Northern Gateway pipeline is sending raw bitumen to China at today's prices... Oil prices will only rise as time goes on and supply dwindles, why dump our supply on the market now, especially in raw form, when it could be processed in Canada by Canadians? No refinery big enough? Build one. The pipeline hasn't been built yet either.
This project will (if it proceeds) benefit China greatly and Enbridge shareholders. The rest of us are SOL if this goes through, AND we'll be paying more for petroleum products to boot.
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Hey matt, you mention "if it proceeds", but in my opinion the handshake has already been made. I hope I'm wrong, but i also now that they are already building the holding tanks in Kitimat, so that can't be good.
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Hey matt, you mention "if it proceeds", but in my opinion the handshake has already been made. I hope I'm wrong, but i also now that they are already building the holding tanks in Kitimat, so that can't be good.
The submission deadline for the joint review committee is March 13th, 2012, and the review itself won't be over for quite some time (don't have duration on hand). There's huge opposition from First Nations and the public. The fat lady definitely hasn't sung yet.
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I'd like to reiterate that it isn't good enough to disagree with the project, you must do something proactive if you're voice is to be heard and taken into consideration.
Here's the draft of my letter, I still need to add paragraphs on the economic impact of the pipeline along the lines of what Robyn Allan has come up with in her economic analysis, which is summed up here: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2012/02/02/northern-gateway-oil-price-shock.html (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2012/02/02/northern-gateway-oil-price-shock.html)
Matt
(my address)
Secretary to the Joint Review Panel
Enbridge Northern Gateway Project
444 Seventh Avenue S.W.
Calgary, AB
T2P 0X8
Fax: 403-292-5503
Dear Sirs/Mesdames,
I am writing to voice my concerns about the proposed Northern Gateway pipeline.
The Skeena watershed is home to BC’s second largest salmon run, second only to the Fraser. As an economic resource alone salmon are valued a $109,987,700 (http://northwestinstitute.ca/downloads/IBM_skeena_report_06.pdf). Furthermore, salmon have an inherent cultural value to British Columbians that cannot be enumerated. As one of the world’s longest un-dammed rivers and the second largest river in BC, the Skeena watershed is home to a diverse population of animals and fish including a world-renowned population of salmon and steelhead. Specifically, the Skeena watershed is home to the largest remaining population of wild steelhead as well as large numbers of Chinook, coho, sockeye, chum and pink salmon. These fish draw anglers from around the world. Moreover, they are used for both sustenance and ceremonial purposes by local First Nations. Jobs exist as a result of both the commercial and recreational fisheries and ecotourism jobs exist in conjunction with the ecosystems in which salmon are a keystone species. Many fishing lodges draw tourists to the province and capitalize on the natural wonders for which British Columbia is perhaps most well known.
The proposed pipelines would run through a geographical area prone to landslides. Four large rockslides have already occurred in the Hazelton Mountains, Kitimat Range and Nechako Plateau since 2002. Three of the six large rockslides that have occurred since 1978 have severed natural gas pipelines (Howson landslides in 1978 and 1999, and Zymoetz landslide in 2002). The frequency of pipeline failures in the area clearly illustrates the difficulty of preserving the integrity of a pipeline constructed in this unforgiving terrain.
Should a spill occur, Enbridge’s own experience shows that diluted bitumen spills are difficult to clean up. The July 25, 2010 pipeline failure near Kalamazoo, Michigan that spilled approximately 20,000 barrels of oil into the Kalamazoo River demonstrated that diluted bitumen can sink to the bottom of rivers, presenting a challenge to the cleanup of a spill. Because most life in a watershed lives on river bottoms, a diluted bitumen spill is disastrous to the ecosystem in which the spill occurs.
The Polaris Institute, using Enbridge's own data, calculates that 804 spills occurred in the period between 1999 and 2010. From these spills 168,645 barrels of hydrocarbons were released directly into the environment. Enbridge considers itself a leading in safe pipelines, yet Enbridge’s own data shows that even the best technology cannot prevent spills from occurring. A reality that was poignantly illustrated by Enbridge’s January 10, 2012 announcement of a possible leak on its Stingray pipeline off the coast of the Louisiana coast, the very day of the commencement of the Northern Gateway public hearings.
Once the diluted bitumen reaches Kitimat after travelling through the Enbridge pipeline, it needs to be transported by super tanker through Hecate Straight. Hecate Straight a diverse ecosystem in its own right, and is well known for the extreme weather conditions that characterize the region. I see this presenting two significant problems. First, this greatly increases the risk of running aground. Second, should a spill occur, the cleanup effort will hampered by weather and the diluted bitumen has the potential to widely and rapidly be spread by the weather conditions.
The onus is on stakeholders such as Enbridge to present a safe plan to bring oil to market should it desire to profit from the endeavor. To date, they have not done so. The current plan is markedly flawed and cannot be allowed to proceed.
Thank you for taking into consideration my thoughts on this matter. Another solution must be found to the problem of bringing Albert tar sand oil to market. The proposed Northern Gateway project in its current state presents too great a risk to British Columbians to be worthy of consideration. Enbridge’s experience shows that even with their experience and technology, they cannot prevent spills from occurring. Piping diluted bitumen through an area as sensitive and environmentally significant as the Skeena Watershed and subsequently shipping it in tankers along the BC coastline should not be attempted.
Signed,
Matt
CC:
Kenneth MacDonald
VP, Law and Regulatory Affairs
Northern Gateway Pipelines Inc.
30th Floor, 425 – 1st Street SW
Calgary, Alberta
T2P 3L8
Fax: 403-718-3525
kenneth.macdonald@enbridge.com
Abby Dorval
Manager, Regulatory Affairs
Northern Gateway Pipelines Inc.
30th Floor, 425 – 1st Street SW
Calgary, Alberta
T2P 3L8
Fax: 403-231-7380
abby.dorval@enbridge.com
Richard Neufeld, Q.C.
Barrister & Solicitor Fraser Milner Casgrain
15th Floor, 850 – 2nd Street SW
Calgary, Alberta
T2P 0R8
Fax: 403-268-3100
richard.neufeld@fmc-law.com
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Thats a good letter Matt. I'll be starting mine shortly.
I'm not sure if you've sent it in yet, but I noticed a few errors in it. Not trying to be the grammar police, just trying to help.
Matt
(my address)
Secretary to the Joint Review Panel
Enbridge Northern Gateway Project
444 Seventh Avenue S.W.
Calgary, AB
T2P 0X8
Fax: 403-292-5503
Dear Sirs/Mesdames,
I am writing to voice my concerns about the proposed Northern Gateway pipeline.
The Skeena watershed is home to BC’s second largest salmon run, second only to the Fraser. As an economic resource alone salmon are valued a $109,987,700 (http://northwestinstitute.ca/downloads/IBM_skeena_report_06.pdf). Furthermore, salmon have an inherent cultural value to British Columbians that cannot be enumerated. As one of the world’s longest un-dammed rivers and the second largest river in BC, the Skeena watershed is home to a diverse population of animals and fish including a world-renowned population of salmon and steelhead. Specifically, the Skeena watershed is home to the largest remaining population of wild steelhead as well as large numbers of Chinook, coho, sockeye, chum and pink salmon. These fish draw anglers from around the world. Moreover, they are used for both sustenance and ceremonial purposes by local First Nations. Jobs exist as a result of both the commercial and recreational fisheries and ecotourism jobs exist in conjunction with the ecosystems in which salmon are a keystone species. Many fishing lodges draw tourists to the province and capitalize on the natural wonders for which British Columbia is perhaps most well known.
The proposed pipelines would run through a geographical area prone to landslides. Four large rockslides have already occurred in the Hazelton Mountains, Kitimat Range and Nechako Plateau since 2002. Three of the six large rockslides that have occurred since 1978 have severed natural gas pipelines (Howson landslides in 1978 and 1999, and Zymoetz landslide in 2002). The frequency of pipeline failures in the area clearly illustrates the difficulty of preserving the integrity of a pipeline constructed in this unforgiving terrain.
Should a spill occur, Enbridge’s own experience shows that diluted bitumen spills are difficult to clean up. The July 25, 2010 pipeline failure near Kalamazoo, Michigan that spilled approximately 20,000 barrels of oil into the Kalamazoo River demonstrated that diluted bitumen can sink to the bottom of rivers, presenting a challenge to the cleanup of a spill. Because most life in a watershed lives on river bottoms, a diluted bitumen spill is disastrous to the ecosystem in which the spill occurs.
The Polaris Institute, using Enbridge's own data, calculates that 804 spills occurred in the period between 1999 and 2010. From these spills 168,645 barrels of hydrocarbons were released directly into the environment. Enbridge considers itself a leader in safe pipelines, yet Enbridge’s own data shows that even the best technology cannot prevent spills from occurring. A reality that was poignantly illustrated by Enbridge’s January 10, 2012 announcement of a possible leak on its Stingray pipeline off the coast of the Louisiana coast, the very day of the commencement of the Northern Gateway public hearings.
Once the diluted bitumen reaches Kitimat after travelling through the Enbridge pipeline, it needs to be transported by super tanker through Hecate Straight. Hecate Straight a diverse ecosystem in its own right, and is well known for the extreme weather conditions that characterize the region. I see this presenting two significant problems. First, this greatly increases the risk of running aground. Second, should a spill occur, the cleanup effort will hampered by weather and the diluted bitumen has the potential to widely and rapidly be spread by the weather conditions.
The onus is on stakeholders such as Enbridge to present a safe plan to bring oil to market should it desire to profit from the endeavor. To date, they have not done so. The current plan is markedly flawed and cannot be allowed to proceed.
Thank you for taking into consideration my thoughts on this matter. Another solution must be found to the problem of bringing Alberta tar sand oil to market. The proposed Northern Gateway project in its current state presents too great a risk to British Columbians to be worthy of consideration. Enbridge’s experience shows that even with their experience and technology, they cannot prevent spills from occurring. Piping diluted bitumen through an area as sensitive and environmentally significant as the Skeena Watershed and subsequently shipping it in tankers along the BC coastline should not be attempted.
Signed,
Matt
CC:
Kenneth MacDonald
VP, Law and Regulatory Affairs
Northern Gateway Pipelines Inc.
30th Floor, 425 – 1st Street SW
Calgary, Alberta
T2P 3L8
Fax: 403-718-3525
kenneth.macdonald@enbridge.com
Abby Dorval
Manager, Regulatory Affairs
Northern Gateway Pipelines Inc.
30th Floor, 425 – 1st Street SW
Calgary, Alberta
T2P 3L8
Fax: 403-231-7380
abby.dorval@enbridge.com
Richard Neufeld, Q.C.
Barrister & Solicitor Fraser Milner Casgrain
15th Floor, 850 – 2nd Street SW
Calgary, Alberta
T2P 0R8
Fax: 403-268-3100
richard.neufeld@fmc-law.com
[/quote]
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Thanks Sterling, point them out, grammar matters! Haven't sent it yet, I want some material about economic impacts (paraphrasing economist Robyn Allan's findings), so the more editing the better.
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yet anything made from oil can be made with hemp and hemp has actually more uses.
Depends how much you smoke and what you want to make after you've eaten all the potatoe chips I guess. ???
P.S. post some pics of your hemp powered hemp mobile.
(and Scooby Doo's Mystery Machine doesn't count.)
But really, an important issue to stay informed of and act on.
Thanks for the info.
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Less than a month left to write a letter. PLEASE do so. This issue is far larger than merely fish-related, its about a major watershed, coastline and an oil company without any regard for the risks British Columbians will be forced to bear.
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IMHO this pipeline is going to be very hard to stop with logical arguments or demonstrations. The man in Ottawa wants it.
So BC should make it marginally economic for the proponents by arranging to tax every inch of it again and again. A transit tax of $10,000,000/km/year for the part in BC plus a large port levy on the tankers would be a good start. Make the return very small relative to their liability risk and cost.
These taxes should be within the legal jurisdiction of BC and we could stall it for years with legal arguments and maybe, just maybe, kill it.
I agree it would be better to stop it first and let's work hard on that. Taxes can be plan B and work on that too.