Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tylsie on August 19, 2015, 08:43:56 PM
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As was mentioned in another thread, there is hope that the current closure will bring in new regulations to end TOW. I am wondering what these regulations would entail, or what people would suggest. I can not think of any that would be effective. Examples, and the problems I foresee,
Maximum Leader Length: It would basically eliminate fly fishing, there are times where I am fishing from a boat that I want a longer leader, just attach the weight to the main line so it is impossible to determine where leader starts.
Ban Bottom Bouncing: BB is a legitimate form of sport fishing practiced around the world. It is mine, and several others I know, preferred method of steelhead fishing in clear water. Just because a few people have perverted it does not mean that those who practice it ethically should be punished. And in the end would do nothing to really stop people, they will just find a new way.
End the Sport Sockeye Fishery: This would do nothing. The Genie is out of the bottle. People can still floss under the guise of targeting Chinook. Then in large run years, it would only result in the continued sale of sockeye by other user groups that have proven they are not above dumping one days unsold catch rather than store them because they know they can catch more tomorrow. Nets take more in one day than all sport fishers dream in a lifetime.
I cannot think of a realistic scenarios that will have effective results in a timely manner. Yes, education will eventually win but it will take time. So I in all seriousness, I want to hear people's ideas to end this blight as another member calls it.
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Just throwing this out there. Other jurisdictions have taken on to tackle snagging. Oregon apparently instituted new anti-snagging measures back in 2013. This is the new definition of snagging in Oregon as quoted from the 2015 Sport Fishing Regulation:
"Snagging: Taking or attempting to take a fish with a hook and line in a way or manner where the fish is not enticed to voluntarily take the hook(s) in its mouth. Gamefish which are hooked other than inside of its mouth must be released immediately unharmed."
Emphasis is mine. This on it's own could essentially prohibit 'non-selective" methods, to use the DFO terminology. If you know that you are routinely hooking fish that didn't actively bite, then you are snagging, regardless whether the fish comes in head first or backwards.
The rationale for implementing this wording:
"Rationale: Help to curtail illegal snagging activities and allow legitimate anglers more opportunities to fish for and catch salmon and steelhead. Oregon State Police officers will be able to articulate in court that the angler’s actions are not conducive to a fish “voluntarily” taking the hook in its mouth. By considering the anglers fishing technique, along with any gear configuration, officers can communicate in courts that the violator is doing the opposite of “attracting” fish. In other words, the gear is chasing the fish, versus the fish chasing the gear. (ODFW/OSP Staff)"
Again emphasis mine. They basically have defined sport fishing as getting fish to actively bite. I think many people would inherently agree with this definition though there is currently no wording in the BC regs to such effect. If we were to introduce such wording, the only currently legal fishery I can think of offhand that would be impacted would be flossing. Since these new regs were introduced in Oregon, I dont know if they've had the intended effect or not.
Personally I think a leader length restriction could also be an effective measure too. Bottom bouncing is a valid and legitimate technique, but there is no reason for ridiculously long leaders other than to floss. By giving enforcement officers some discretion in determining if someone is fishing 'non-selectively' they can grant exceptions for fly fishing, bar fishing, back trolling plugs, etc without needing to try and list every acceptable technique in the regs.
Having said all that, any new regs wont be particularly useful without enforcement.
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Maximum Leader Length: It would basically eliminate fly fishing, there are times where I am fishing from a boat that I want a longer leader, just attach the weight to the main line so it is impossible to determine where leader starts.
Any proposed changes should specifically specify that Area 2 fishing, using a weight greater than 14 grams (1/2 oz) must be done with a float of equal or greater buoyancy and a leader no longer than (just throwing this out there) 36 inches. It might sound complex but it gives fly fisherman some latitude and prohibits leaders greater than 36 inches behind a weight of .5 oz or greater. Personally, I think that bouncing betty type weights need to be addressed as they are seem to be produced (at least in the LM) for bottom bouncing purposes. In the lower mainland, do they have any other legitimate use that cannot be supplemented with another type of weight?
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I think trying to outright ban flossing would be effectively closing Fraser River sockeye to everybody other than netters, this may be politically unacceptable to the masses. I think a total ban on all forms of bottom bouncing (including legitimate forms) except in the Fraser River during a sockeye opening: would be more acceptable to the masses, authorities and those whose livelihood depend on fishing. This may be easier to enforce and with current returns the way they are: flossing may only be seen for a few weeks once every four years.
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Would someone describe a legitimate form of bottom bouncing?
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Would someone describe a legitimate form of bottom bouncing?
In the context of the OP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOxHE7N_-Mk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWnBhyzbMLE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW8V0kVa62k
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Who cares about legitimate BB, as per usual a select few ruin things for the masses.
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Not an easy solution that is for sure. The sockeye fishery the FVSS worked hard to get opened on the Fraser many years ago has created a monster now as some perdicted it would and now effects our recreational angling on the Fraser River greater than ever this year, that is why some anglers would not take part once it was determined it was just a snagging method to take fish. I was one of those and stopped around 15 years ago as did many others.
As I have said many times I still feel badly that I was part of the team from FVSS that worked with FOC to get it open.
We now have created a senario where many new people have taken it up and this is the only way they know how to take fish, of course we know it has spread to all our rivers I know I have said all this many times.
Many of these new people, not all, I must add did not pay heed to FOC and sports groups request to fish selectively but I think FOC numbers of those BB were out of wack as I saw a lot of bar fishers in the lower reaches but I guess above the Agassix Rosedale Bridge had a high volume of flossers. There was good work by Rod Clapton from the Drift Fishers to put out the poster that was paid for by Fred Helmer to try and get people to fish selectively.
Of course the F/N fishery has something to do with the recent closures as well, we all know that but that is for the Goverment of Canada and Fisheries and Oceans Canada to deal with, we can not change that. Of course changing weather patterns are affecting survival rates for some salmon stocks as well.
Of course the plus side and there usually is a plus side to most situations is the sockeye openings, last year for sure, the only one I see is, it was very good for the economy and creates millions for the Fraser Valley in spinoff dollars from tackle stores, to hotels etc..
The solutions as I said at the start will not be easy but maybe we need to return to what it was a few years ago when we did not have a chum, pink or sockeye fishery when our only target salmon were coho and chinook which the latter seem to be in good shape by the test fishery results. Do we also move to a fixed rod situation as well when chinooks are open?
All I know some of this will have to be done and bite the bullit so to speak or, as my dear late friend, Gwyn Joiner, now gone 3 years ago yesterday, said many years ago, "Chris unless we stop this BB'ing we will only have lake fishing to enjoy." How true that statement was Gwyn.
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Would someone describe a legitimate form of bottom bouncing?
Legitimate bottom bouncing: Enticing fish to bite your presentation by bouncing it along the bottom of a water body.
Illegitimate bottom bouncing: Enticing your presentation to hook/snag fish by bouncing it along the bottom of a water body.
Both can be done with any length leader, presentation type and sinker light enough to touch but not rest on the bottom. Since an identical set up can be used for both forms, it would be impossible to regulate unless both forms are banned.
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There is no legitimate way to BB the Fraser River. Yes there is an ethical method for deep, clear pools in rivers and streams but in no way can you Bottom Bounce the Fraser River in an ethical form. Simple and effecitve rule; No Bottom Bouncing on the Fraser River for Salmon. I would also prefer this for all rivers, for the small percentage that performs this method in a legal/effective way doesnt outweigh the group we would remove from our rivers and i think that banning one method you may use to rid hundreds of snaggers off the rivers would be better in my opinion.
Easy as that, yes it leaves a bunch of areas open to other forms of flossing/snagging but lets start with no more betties on the river and then move forward with the other methods afterwards like leader size restriction and so forth. Again this should not be necessary as mentioned below;
"Snagging: Taking or attempting to take a fish with a hook and line in a way or manner where the fish is not enticed to voluntarily take the hook(s) in its mouth. Gamefish which are hooked other than inside of its mouth must be released immediately unharmed."
We need to get rid of the 'hooked in the head its legal'
Nothing pisses me off more when im fishing run, or coming to fish and i see someone tossing a betty or chunk of lead with 8' leader into the river (vedder, chehalis, ect) then after everyone else sees them hooking way more fish then they are they transfer over to this style of fishing. Gets my blood boiling....
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it would be impossible to regulate unless both forms are banned.
That is why both forms need to be banned. For everyone complaining about BB, then also saying it is an effective method and they fish this way needs to give up this style to remove it from our systems.
For the one or two pools a year, and likely only a few times a year youll ever use this method lets just get rid of it completely. I fish the odd pool and area with a 16-20" leader and chunk of lead simply because i can not get down deep enough float fishing (30'). If i had to give up this method and odd time i fish here to stop BB. Then sign me up, ill swing a blade through next time or pop a jig.
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How about working all towards total closure on commercial netting in Fraser. This just makes sense on so many levels - it has the greatest impact/harvest on stocks (last years commercial harvest was close to 6 million sockeye), it is absolutely NON-SELECTIVE as so many chinook, coho and steelhead get dumpedback dead in the water. Not to mention it benefits only a select few, actually very limited number of people.
I say leave FN do their thing, allow general public to catch their two sockeye every few years (great impact on local economy) while banning commersial harvests and total ban on any sort of bottom bouncing on any river other than limited sockeye openings. Like how the hell some people here think is ethical to BB for steelhead (protected species) is just beyond me. Just because they lay on the bottom and may be more lethargic that somehow makes it ethical to BB or what?? Ban all BB no matter what, it's easy for an officer to determine when a rig is intended to tick bottom, including desguised float flossers.
And last but not least we are in dire need of more enforcement, which means this fall please do VOTE and remember how the curren Harper agenda destroyed Coast Guard, DFO and shut down so much science work!
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What about just having a 1 sockeye limit? With this can be measures like fishing handling regs similar to sturgeon.
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Close the Fraser River Sockeye Fishery completely! Fine the poachers that insist on taking them when it is closed! Hire more officers to enforce the regs both Federally and Provincially.Why the hell are the CO's wandering around telling morons to put out their campfires when they should be enforcing fish and wildlife regulations.
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I don't have exact figures but last year's total sport catch of sockeye (including saltwater) was around 100 000 fish compared to 6 million commercially harvested(not incl FN). Why are we missing the elephant in the room.
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Because the Government is blind! :P
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I don't have exact figures but last year's total sport catch of sockeye (including saltwater) was around 100 000 fish compared to 6 million commercially harvested(not incl FN). Why are we missing the elephant in the room.
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But let's say just for fun 100,000 would be caught in fresh only. Change the limit to 1 and suddenly only 50,000 are taken. Then take away even more from people who live in places like Vancouver that aren't going to make the drive because it's not worth it and you could be at 25,000 (obviously rough number). That's a lot of fish saved right there.
They are never going to hire more officers. They are already having a tough time keeping the officers that they have due to cuts. Leader length restrictions don't make sense because they just don't have the time and what do they do with fly fishermen? And I noticed some guys last season were bouncing but had a float on. Is this still bouncing? Would this be a loop hole if they banned bouncing completely?
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I don't have exact figures but last year's total sport catch of sockeye (including saltwater) was around 100 000 fish compared to 6 million commercially harvested(not incl FN). Why are we missing the elephant in the room.
Precisely, regardless of which method you use the sport fishery only takes a small percentage of sockeye harvested, and there are almost as many threads started about flossing, snagging, BB, this dead horse will continue to be beat till the day we run out of fish to catch then some more......if you want to conserve a stock, just put a 10 fish limit tag on each fishing licence, much like what they are doing for springs, then let all hell break loose on fishing methods till the licence is filled up
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Precisely, regardless of which method you use the sport fishery only takes a small percentage of sockeye harvested, and there are almost as many threads started about flossing, snagging, BB, this dead horse will continue to be beat till the day we run out of fish to catch then some more......if you want to conserve a stock, just put a 10 fish limit tag on each fishing licence, much like what they are doing for springs, then let all hell break loose on fishing methods till the licence is filled up
People would just print a new license every time they fill one up.
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People would just print a new license every time they fill one up.
Well it's a start, as fishing methods cannot be defined appropriately. As a fly fisherman, I use 9'-12' leaders, guess that would make me a flosser by today's terms of flossing. I also feel my sinktip ticking the bottom, so that would make me a BB, so by today's terminology I am fishing with illegal methods?? And when I raise me rod tip at the end of a drift to recast, guess that would make me a snagger
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Well it's a start, as fishing methods cannot be defined appropriately. As a fly fisherman, I use 9'-12' leaders, guess that would make me a flosser by today's terms of flossing. I also feel my sinktip ticking the bottom, so that would make me a BB, so by today's terminology I am fishing with illegal methods?? And when I raise me rod tip at the end of a drift to recast, guess that would make me a snagger
Any horizontal presentation 1-3 foot off the bottom can be used as a flossing tool. If you are fishing the mainstem Fraser with very limited visibility then you are a flosser.
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It's a harvest fishery. Sockeye and spring tags. Up the price. I don't fish sockeye, I don't bottom bounce, I have nothing to do with that fishery. Why are steelhead and sturgeon have their own tags? To protect limit the resource. Give them all tags.
Also commercial obviously had the largest effect, so address that first
Maybe harvest licenses? Rec fishing for recreation. Harvest fishing for harvest? Snag them, get your two, get out. Could also do it in certain areas.
Before anything, we need people who can push changes to give a $hit. Get those. Then, stop talking, start experimenting.
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Any horizontal presentation 1-3 foot off the bottom can be used as a flossing tool. If you are fishing the mainstem Fraser with very limited visibility then you are a flosser.
So I guess you are saying one can only fish a minimum of 4ft of water with 1ft of leader, and no fishing The Fraser at all because of limited visibility or else you would be flossing ???
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well there are certainly a lot of good ideas been posted here
some well worth debating
I do like the sound of an additional tag for sokeye but how do we make sure that money goes back into sokeye development
I will admit that yes I do bottom bounce but when and only when sokeye are open if I catch a spring in between my two socs well its a bonus but when ive got my two socks that rod goes away and I pull out the bar rod sit and crack a bevy and relax all that casting is a lot of thirsty work
it maybe difficult to enforce but when you have your two socks no more bbing
but the biggest problem is getting all of these ideas to the ears of the people who can actually do something about it so please get out and vote it is more important than ever
cnm
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So I guess you are saying one can only fish a minimum of 4ft of water with 1ft of leader, and no fishing The Fraser at all because of limited visibility or else you would be flossing ???
No. I am saying that fly fishing in the mainstem Fraser with sink tips is flossing. Go somewhere else and fish ethically.
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Leader length restrictions don't make sense because they just don't have the time and what do they do with fly fishermen?
You could exempt fly fishermen easily enough, but then I rarely use leaders longer than 3 feet when fishing the sink tip lines needed to get down on big rivers like the Fraser. Long leaders cause the fly to ride higher in the water column, negating the effect of the sinking tip. Also, since "fly fishing" is already defined in the regulations as a method where nothing else is attached to the line (see fly fishing only regs), using a split shot would cancel the exemption for anyone trying to get around it.
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well there are certainly a lot of good ideas been posted here
some well worth debating
I do like the sound of an additional tag for sokeye but how do we make sure that money goes back into sokeye development
I will admit that yes I do bottom bounce but when and only when sokeye are open if I catch a spring in between my two socs well its a bonus but when ive got my two socks that rod goes away and I pull out the bar rod sit and crack a bevy and relax all that casting is a lot of thirsty work
it maybe difficult to enforce but when you have your two socks no more bbing
but the biggest problem is getting all of these ideas to the ears of the people who can actually do something about it so please get out and vote it is more important than ever
cnm
Thanks for your ideas and to others as well that are posting what needs to be done. I am compiling all solutions from this thread and will present at out first fall meeting of the Fraser Valley Salmon Society in October. All directors have been asked to give their opinions as well in writing so we can come up with what to present to the Upper Fraser Valley Sports Fishing Advistory Board meeting in the fall.
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some folks have expressed concern that the # of springs caught by bottom bouncers has a negative impact on that population of fish - one easy fix is change the salmon retention from 4 to 2 for July and August. That should cut down on the number of people who stay on the river trying to get a spring after they kill 2 sockeye. Personally I don't have a problem with bottom bouncing for sockeye. I think it's a legitimate harvest even if it doesn't pass some people's sniff test as a form of sport fishing - but sport simply means for fun and pleasure, nothing more. I've never found the idea of hanging a pound to a pound and a half of lead off the lip of a 15lb chinook 'sporting'. If you're that desperate to take a fish why not contemplate golf? (jk) Most of this is all 'relative' and hardly a matter of serious ethics.
Another possible fix - ban use of bare hooks or hooks dressed only with any form of wool or fabric if fished with weight unless sockeye are open. This could be a seasonal ban - July and August so it doesn't interfere with cool season trout fishing.
I'm not sure leader regulations would be effective since fish can be flossed on a few feet of leader and while fly fishing I've caught sockeye using a sink tip and a few feet of leader and best I recall the first test fisheries used just 3 feet of leader.
Licensing - how about a seasonal limit on sockeye including punch cards or license marks? Ten to twenty should be enough Yes most of us buy our licenses on line but the ability to print multiple license copies can be restricted or eliminated - I believe that would be a fairly straightforward technical fix.
Lastly why not ban any weight that looks like a golf ball from every stream in the Province?
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I don't have exact figures but last year's total sport catch of sockeye (including saltwater) was around 100 000 fish compared to 6 million commercially harvested(not incl FN). Why are we missing the elephant in the room.
And the FN in the river is another huge number. People on this site don't want to see the elephant. They want to look at the other dog getting scraps from the table and complain that that other dog got their scraps incorrectly instead of looking at the what was on the table and where the real issues are happening.
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when the commercial fishery happens the 1st Nations take (both the food/ceremonial part of the economic opportunity part) is usually about 20% of the total. After about a century of injustice that amounted to racist theft, 1st Nations in BC won back their right to fish and 1st priority access to the resource. That's not going to change for a very long time, if ever. I also would not want to see or expect netting in river or at the mouth to be brought to an end. The alternatives simply are not all that workable. The commercial fishing industry is how the general public gets access to the resource, so it is necessary. Better management and techniques can substantially reduce the unintended impacts of net fishing.
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Lastly why not ban any weight that looks like a golf ball from every stream in the Province?
THIS is the question I would like answered! Do bouncing betties have any other legitimate use other than being used for bottom bouncing?
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And the FN in the river is another huge number. People on this site don't want to see the elephant. They want to look at the other dog getting scraps from the table and complain that that other dog got their scraps incorrectly instead of looking at the what was on the table and where the real issues are happening.
YEP!!!.............here's an example, a couple of years ago on an island system there was a FN opening for springs for 1900 pcs, after all said and done, the harvest was almost 12,000 pcs with 2 enforcement boats present to monitor the numbers, at the same time there was a ban for retention for recreational fishing because of the low numbers of returns..........Go figure. For the rec fisherman, instead of fighting each other on rules and ethics, go lobby your MP's and ask them why DFO lost their case in The B.C Court of Appeals to prevent FN from selling their fish at roadside stands and to the consumer market. This ruling allows the to sale over and above food and ceremonial needs. This is starting to sound like the drug trade...if there is demand there will always be supply
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go lobby your MP's and ask them why DFO lost their case in The B.C Court of Appeals to prevent FN from selling their fish at roadside stands and to the consumer market. This ruling allows the to sale over and above food and ceremonial needs. This is starting to sound like the drug trade...if there is demand there will always be supply
They lost because they had a bad case. There's no legal reasons native can't sell salmon. The food and ceremonial opening regulations is a DFO fiction with no legal basis. That's why they introduced the economic opportunity openings. Far better to work with native communities as what they lose in court they can no longer control.
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Lastly why not ban any weight that looks like a golf ball from every stream in the Province?
Amen Ralph!
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when the commercial fishery happens the 1st Nations take (both the food/ceremonial part of the economic opportunity part) is usually about 20% of the total. After about a century of injustice that amounted to racist theft, 1st Nations in BC won back their right to fish and 1st priority access to the resource. That's not going to change for a very long time, if ever. I also would not want to see or expect netting in river or at the mouth to be brought to an end. The alternatives simply are not all that workable. The commercial fishing industry is how the general public gets access to the resource, so it is necessary. Better management and techniques can substantially reduce the unintended impacts of net fishing.
Why do you not want to see netting in the river stopped? When the sockeye run this year was downgraded, it was amazing how all of the openings now are dip net or fish wheel on the Fraser. If you are going to try and say that wasn't to try and limit stress on sockeye or reduce by catch then I would be interested in your explanation. If it is for one of those two reasons, then perhaps those nets should only be allowed in the river during sockeye runs on years where there is plenty of returning fish, and not just switching to a larger mesh because obviously that wasn't enough this year.
In fact, if you have watched fish around nets, a sockeye can easily get caught in an 8 inch mesh. Unless they get extremely tangled, they are usually able to work their way out and continue on. There have been so much discussion on here lately about the effect of catch and release on these fish. You think this is any better?
If the runs are hurting, either everyone is on board and working to protect the runs or you are going to lose support. If one group doesn't contribute but instead gets everything they can get now, screw the future, then there will be plenty of other people who will just say burn the whole thing down, get what you can, get your memories now to remember for when there are no fish. That is what happened in Washington on a couple rivers. They ended up fishing things down to where whole runs were extremely endangered and made it so nobody could fish for them.
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Lastly why not ban any weight that looks like a golf ball from every stream in the Province?
When fishing with dick nights growing up, we were essentially bottom bouncing. You can do that with a tear dropped shaped sinker which would easily get past your ban and yet not solve any issue you would try and solve with it. Unless people didn't figure it out but I don't believe that would be the case.
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Amen Ralph!
because then you would have to ban pencil lead, split shot as they serve the same purpose....to get the bait to them bottom where our species of salmon are, unlike Atlantics which sit in middle of river currents, just subsurface, where short floating or no weighting works wonders. Why not, instead of trying to change methods or ethical ways of fishing, just go with CIRCLE HOOKS to reduce catch and mortality rates, much like when they banned treble hooks, single barbed hooks. I am sure we could reduce the recreational fishing harvest numbers of 100,000 by at least 20% or more........which would give FN and commercial fishery a 20% increase in their quota, much like a department budget," if ya don't spend it,you ain't getting it next year". Each system no matter how big or small can sustain only a certain amount of fish, after that it does more harm than good. A good example is the Quinsum River last year when they had so many pinks return that majority never made it to the spawning channels, and now they cut back harvesting by half, I am sure DFO would cut back on harvest or close the rivers like now if they felt Sockeye stocks would be threatened. I , myself am more concerned about forest practices destroying stream habitats, and future Mt. Poly etal tailing pond breaches than the guy with a long leader and a rubber ball fishing beside me
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Ban Lure fishing at all! Bait fisherman is eventually the highest state! ;D ;D ;D
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You all realize that you had the exact same discussion on this subject two years ago when we had the same closure from August 15th to 30th 2013 right? How's that working out for your fishing trips this year? Feel free to keep insisting the way you fish should continue because other user groups have significantly larger impacts on the stocks. We can hang the rods dry again next year and repeat the same discussion.
The representatives of the Upper Fraser Valley SFAC have been busy exploring ideas on how an exclusively selective fishery for chinook salmon on the Fraser River can take place in the summer so no future closures like this will take place again. IMO, some fishing is better than no fishing, but I highly doubt these changes will happen anytime soon based on the amount of people who can't give up flossing.
Personally it makes no difference to me whether it opens or not. There are plenty of fisheries in other parts of this province to enjoy during this time of the year.
BTW, the summer run sockeye salmon size has been upgraded to 1.6 million fish so Lower Fraser First Nations are expecting to have some limited chinook salmon gill net openings this weekend.
How's your summer chinook salmon fishing season going so far? ;)
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Ban Lure fishing at all! Bait fisherman is eventually the highest state! ;D ;D ;D
highest only in the sense they all smell bad. 8)
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because then you would have to ban pencil lead, split shot as they serve the same purpose....to get the bait to them bottom where our species of salmon are, unlike Atlantics which sit in middle of river currents, just subsurface, where short floating or no weighting works wonders. Why not, instead of trying to change methods or ethical ways of fishing, just go with CIRCLE HOOKS to reduce catch and mortality rates, much like when they banned treble hooks, single barbed hooks. I am sure we could reduce the recreational fishing harvest numbers of 100,000 by at least 20% or more........which would give FN and commercial fishery a 20% increase in their quota, much like a department budget," if ya don't spend it,you ain't getting it next year". Each system no matter how big or small can sustain only a certain amount of fish, after that it does more harm than good. A good example is the Quinsum River last year when they had so many pinks return that majority never made it to the spawning channels, and now they cut back harvesting by half, I am sure DFO would cut back on harvest or close the rivers like now if they felt Sockeye stocks would be threatened. I , myself am more concerned about forest practices destroying stream habitats, and future Mt. Poly etal tailing pond breaches than the guy with a long leader and a rubber ball fishing beside me
I kind of have some trouble following what you are trying to say. I'm not sure if you've fished Atlantic Salmon but they certainly do not sit in the middle of a river just sub-surface as you say. Primarily I fly fish though I chuck spinners and spoons from time to time for which I don't use weight. I'd be fine with banning lead. My suggestion to ban all weights that look like a golf ball was partly tongue in cheek but also 'cause I was thinking most folks who chuck betties wouldn't know how to adapt if they couldn't use them. I think it was what the discussion was mean to be about and the main objective is to reduce angling through regulations specifically targeting a certain segment - like a bait ban. FWIW it's worth circle hooks, treble hooks and barbed singles have never been shown to have lower mortality rates in c&r fisheries. When used to avoid deep ingestion of hooks circle hooks have been found in c&r research to have mortality rates of about 10% or 2x the amount associated with artificial flies and lures and barbed single barbed hooks. Comparatively barbed hooks with flies and lures have higher rates that are statistically meaningless and trebles barely so. Use of barbs no barbs singles trebles are meaningless in situations involving deep ingestion. I'd be ok with circle hooks. I haven't used them much. I find them hard to sharpen but if that's the way the world goes I'd be ok with that.
TNAngler - not arguing with what fish wheel and other selective techniques can do but they won't replace nets. Can a wheel work in the lower river or the mouth? How about in Johnstone Strait? The highest demand is for ocean fresh fish which are the best quality. Commercial troll gets some - but in most cases it requires nets - gill or seine.
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You all realize that you had the exact same discussion on this subject two years ago when we had the same closure from August 15th to 30th 2013 right? How's that working out for your fishing trips this year? Feel free to keep insisting the way you fish should continue because other user groups have significantly larger impacts on the stocks. We can hang the rods dry again next year and repeat the same discussion.
BTW, the summer run sockeye salmon size has been upgraded to 1.6 million fish so Lower Fraser First Nations are expecting to have some limited chinook salmon gill net openings this weekend.
As Rod says above, slaming other user will get us no where, think of ways that help keep us recreational anglers in the water, that is what we are faced with once again.
Also here is the notice Rod spoke about. At the Fraser River Panel(FRP) meeting today the Summer run size was increased to 1.6M. As such, the Department will be authorizing very limited chinook-directed gill net fisheries in the Lower Fraser Area this weekend. These fisheries require fishers to target chinook by using large mesh gillnets and there will be no retention of sockeye permitted. Please note that planning discussions between DFO and First River First Nations are still underway at this time; once plans are finalized, this info. will be posted on the DFO website at the following link: http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/fraser/index-eng.html
Also, a reminder that detailed information and updates on the current status of Fraser R. sockeye and pink returns will be outlined in today’s DFO Fraser R. sockeye Update Fishery Notice at:
http://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fns-sap/index-eng.cfm and PSC News Release at: http://www.psc.org/news_frpnews.htm
Barbara Mueller
Fisheries and Oceans Canada
Resource Manager, Lower Fraser Area
Tel.: 604.666.2370
Fax: 604.666.7112
c. : 604.312.6360
Email: barbara.mueller@dfo-mpo.gc.ca
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RalphH..........Yes, many years ago, was told to cast out with an int. fly line and a weightless fly, worked pretty good, and why BB is so popular here on the west coast is because our species hug the bottom on their migration, I have definitely experience the difference between a beadhead fly and fly tied with dumbbell eyes. The latter out fishes 4-1. As for circle hooks, I think it's the current best solution to avoid flossing, snagging ever BB till the regs become more definitive or revised
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RalphH..........Yes, many years ago, was told to cast out with an int. fly line and a weightless fly, worked pretty good, and why BB is so popular here on the west coast is because our species hug the bottom on their migration, I have definitely experience the difference between a beadhead fly and fly tied with dumbbell eyes. The latter out fishes 4-1. As for circle hooks, I think it's the current best solution to avoid flossing, snagging ever BB till the regs become more definitive or revised
Well when you consider that atlantics can spawn more then once, whilst our pac salmon do not it would potentially be similar to how a steelhead will come up for a fly, despite hugging the bottom. I'll stop there as I have not fly fished for salmon enough to determine if they also come up in systems that arent 6" or less visibility.
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The commercial fishing industry is how the general public gets access to the resource, so it is necessary.
I can't quite agree here, what I'm seeing in stores almost year round is farmed atlantics(which I wouldn't touch with a stick) with the ocasional Alaskan sockeye thrown in, sometimes even farmed steelhead, oh yes and sometimes silver chum(which is still not good for bbq).
I just don't see netting Fraser to be so much beneficial for the average Joe's table.
I'm still learning on these subjects but do you really believe commercial Fraser netting has nothing to do with the crash of Fraser chinook and sockeye?
As for BB, snagging and the spillover effect on other systems I think it wouldn't matter what rules we implement if there's noone to enforce it. I phoned three times RAPP last week alone for instances of full trunks of snagged fish yet no one ever showed up, and I don't think the guy on the other side of the call didn't care.
Yeah go Harper I guess
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Well when you consider that atlantics can spawn more then once, whilst our pac salmon do not it would potentially be similar to how a steelhead will come up for a fly, despite hugging the bottom. I'll stop there as I have not fly fished for salmon enough to determine if they also come up in systems that arent 6" or less visibility.
Not enough experience for fishing Atlantics either, but the only time I fished them was with a floating line and dry flies and int. sink tip with a subsurface fly, never had to put on a heavy sink tip, must say it was pure fun having a salmon take a dry fly, have had summer run steelhead do the same but never a coho, or spring, but some claim they do
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ByteMe - Atlantic generally hold on the bottom and follow the bottom as they move upstream. In warmer water say at and above 10 to 12 degrees or so they will rise several feet to a fly. Steelhead do more or less the same. For summer runs and for many Atlantic Salmon water in the Maritimes this is precisely the situation - water in the 12 to 18 degree range and fish that respond very aggressively to swung flies on or just below the surface. In colder water as with winter and early spring in Scotland, Norway and Ireland or late fall the fish don't do this as readily and traditionally were fished with flies tied on large irons (heavy wired hooks in the 1/0 to 5/0 size range and even larger) that would sink 3 to 5 feet. Use of 'gear' with spoons plugs and prawns with weight was and is still common. Today fly anglers use metal tubes to sink flies effectively and sink tips where it's permitted (Nova Scotia for example) and with worries about snagging fish.
It's true Pacific Salmon are less inclined to rise to the surface but they will move to a fly or a lure quite a distance. They just aren't as surface oriented as steelhead or Atlantics. More often Pacific Salmon are fished in water that's already getting too cold to lure them to take a fly swung just under the surface.
TN I don't know where you buy your fish but most certainly sockeye are 95% net caught throughout the Pacific and are available fresh, frozen or canned year round. The same is true of the other 4 species to some extent. I heard a local commercial fisherman interviewed - part of a family owned business who said they had done well for sockeye up north and in Barclay Sound plus for chinook near Bela Coola and that had offset the lack of a chance to fish the Fraser. A lot of people including me won't or avoid as much as possible farmed salmon.
Sockeye returns in 2010 and 2014 indicated that far from decline the Fraser system is quite able to produce lots of fish, more than enough for a robust harvest by all sectors. I've lived here for 60 years and it was always like this. Periods of low to mediocre returns and then sudden abundance.Why some runs fail and others do very well is a complex of many factors. Why sport fisherman invariably focus on just 2 or 3 - 2 of which are always rival user groups, is something you and others have to think about.
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RalphH..........Ah....makes sense. My only experience was back east in Quebec in the fall definitely warm, and yes, they were extremely aggressive towards drys, what a rush, would love to do it again
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Who cares about legitimate BB, as per usual a select few ruin things for the masses.
I care to BB with a bit of pencil lead and a short leader, been doing it many yrs before the Sockeye fishery on the Fraser was even thought about,on certain deep pools on certain rivers where this method is the only way of getting down to the fish. A certain few who employ this ethical method of angling is not ruining it for the masses.
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I care to BB with a bit of pencil lead and a short leader, been doing it many yrs before the Sockeye fishery on the Fraser was even thought about,on certain deep pools on certain rivers where this method is the only way of getting down to the fish. A certain few who employ this ethical method of angling is not ruining it for the masses.
good post. Fishing like this has been done going back into the early 20th century. Haig Brown fished like this in the winter months before he got better at catching winter runs on the fly. A light devon Minnow and an ounce or so of weight. You can read about it in the The Western Angler,
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I don't know where you buy your fish but most certainly sockeye are 95% net caught throughout the Pacific and are available fresh, frozen or canned year round. The same is true of the other 4 species to some extent. I heard a local commercial fisherman interviewed - part of a family owned business who said they had done well for sockeye up north and in Barclay Sound plus for chinook near Bela Coola and that had offset the lack of a chance to fish the Fraser. A lot of people including me won't or avoid as much as possible farmed salmon.
Sockeye returns in 2010 and 2014 indicated that far from decline the Fraser system is quite able to produce lots of fish, more than enough for a robust harvest by all sectors. I've lived here for 60 years and it was always like this. Periods of low to mediocre returns and then sudden abundance.Why some runs fail and others do very well is a complex of many factors. Why sport fisherman invariably focus on just 2 or 3 - 2 of which are always rival user groups, is something you and others have to think about.
We are obviusly far apart on this but anyway,
I was talking about FRASER sockeye not about ocean caught.
Also I don't buy any fish from anywhere, my family eats what I catch and we do well so far. I don't trust the handling practises of most grosers.
Same question stays - how do you justify compromising a stock if it's only to put a product for a few weeks every few years which is the case of Fraser sockeye. And if it's like you were saying that commercial boats compensated with bigger catches in the chuck, why not make it the status quo? It wouldn't even be so significant impact on local economy because commies would still maintain same livelihood.
Even though I realise it's almost impossible to happen (before we ruin everything completely) but why not just ban commersial netting in Fraser and other rivers alltogether. Thousands of treathened species dumped back dead as by-catch, wild coho, steelhead, native trout even sturgeon all go wasted. How long before we ruin it to the point of no return if we are not long past it already.
Just keep commercial in the chuck and leave our rivers alone. And don't get me started on the depletion of the oceans because it's a whole different conversation.
Also it's not very acurate to point at last years return which was biggest so far in quite a while. What about the 2009 fish, what aboutthe chinook which is in such a dire straits I can't belive they still allow wild fish retention.
We polute and harvest all there is like there's no tomorrow yet pick on eachother for petty little stuff.
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We are obviusly far apart on this but anyway,
I was talking about FRASER sockeye not about ocean caught.
Also I don't buy any fish from anywhere, my family eats what I catch and we do well so far. I don't trust the handling practises of most grosers.
Where do you think the sockeye caught in the ocean are going? I don't think a ban of net fishing in the Fraser is going to happen any time and certainly not because you want one. Just read Rod's and Mr Gadsden's comments above. Much of the rest of your post , well I can't see how I can comment on it beyond it seems done more in a mood of hysteria and anger.
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That's definitely the easiest way to escape all arguments - anger burst, carry on lol
And I don't need to take yours or other members opinion as The Fishing Bible of Salmon, ok? Everyone is entitled to their own views wether you like it or not.
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I didn't say you aren't entitled to your opinion. I said I don't expect such a thing will happen.You think that's an angry outburst? I have lots of opinions on things which I don't expect will happen or won't happen anytime in the foreseeable future. Besides I mostly responded to another user with a handle strangely similar to yours. Take a Valium. Cheers.
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I put valid arguments in a discussion which you disregarded as "hysteria and anger", and now you make yourself the one accused in anger burst lol, that's messed up :D
I'll take my Vallium, you take your Cialis and we'll call it even hehe
Cheers your way too :)
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Suggesting shutting down the commercial or FN fisheries is about as pie in the sky as you can get. Sure the allocation isnt fair nor related to the actual impact on the stocks, but that doesnt mean there isnt room for improvement in how we approach it from our end (ie recreational sportfishing).
This thread is about flossing, presumably in light of the DFO's request to use selective fishing methods in recent years. A lot of ideas being floated around here and we should encourage such dialog. Personally, I feel that whatever measures comes out of such a high profile Fraser fishery have wide reaching influence on all sportfishing, so it's well worth the effort to try to set it up right, or make course corrections as needed. Even though other industries has 100X more impact on the stocks than us, doesn't mean we should just forget about promoting ethical recreational opportunities.
No one is denying the impact of commercial fishing in stocks is huge, and that we should be pushing for better management. But lets also be realistic. The members of this forum certainly have a greater voice in representing and influencing the sportfishing interests so why not facilitate that however we can. To say it's pointless while the boondogle of commercial fishing continues on is not constructive, IMHO