Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rodney on November 20, 2019, 02:38:51 PM
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The hatchery wraps up its coho salmon spawning for the season this morning.
(https://i.imgur.com/E0VqxZV.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/CamvFDf.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8f5l2b0.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Cr1bIKB.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/MLOdTb1.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/um5EzFb.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/dR0DbGq.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/wXui0tq.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/78DtfrE.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/jB5BCEP.jpg)
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One of Nature's amazing wonders!
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One of Nature's amazing wonders!
That's nature?
:-\
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Factory fish farms
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Very interesting, nice photos
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While I am very grateful for hatchery enhanced fishing opportunities, it saddens me.
Those little warriors should be digging redds in the gravel beneath the canopy of temperate rainforest cedars, not laying in tubes awaiting to be gutted and fertilized in a plastic bucket.
It’s a stark reminder of how much we’ve lost.
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While I am very grateful for hatchery enhanced fishing opportunities, it saddens me.
Those little warriors should be digging redds in the gravel beneath the canopy of temperate rainforest cedars, not laying in tubes awaiting to be gutted and fertilized in a plastic bucket.
It’s a stark reminder of how much we’ve lost.
I see my tax dollars, staff and volunteers hard at work to help the next generation of Chilliwack river Coho come back to the river.
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I see my tax dollars, staff and volunteers hard at work to help the next generation of Chilliwack river Coho clones come back to the river.
fixed that for you
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fixed that for you
Is it true hatch fish are weaker, smaller, poor genetically than wild fish...... ?
At what point does habitat restoration and temporary closed upper river need to be a stronger emphasis ?
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Is it true hatch fish are weaker, smaller, poor genetically than wild fish...... ?
At what point does habitat restoration and temporary closed upper river need to be a stronger emphasis ?
I don't know if it is 'true' but I think many anglers including myself feel hatchery fish on average are smaller and don't fight as well as wild fish. Sometimes they seem less inclined to bite. I recall back in the late 80s saltwater anglers on the East Coast of Vanilse late Sept and Oct (even November) complained despite their high numbers didn't bite as readily as wild fish and that they tended to stay quite deep compared to wild fish that were more surface oriented. Could that had to due with changes in the Strait at the time. I seldom hear talk of that fishery anymore. Maybe it is a thing of the past.
Many experts on salmon seem to agree that salmon overall have been getting smaller in the last several years. I didn't catch a hatchery coho bigger than 4lbs this year and the does I caught were like 3lbs...tiny compared to the past. A couple of the fish Rod and Nina (hope I got your wife's name right Rod) were a good size.
The biggest wild fish I caught this year was about 8lbs. Most were 4 to 6.
Best I know the Chilliwack still has a strong population of wild fish. I think most years it's about equal to what returns to the hatchery. I don't know if there are any studies that specifically indicate hatchery coho are genetically inferior. The big issue with that is relying on hatchery fish as brood stock for coming generations.
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REVIEW OF GENETCIALLY BASED TARGETS FOR
ENHANCED CONTRIBUTIONS TO CANADIAN PACIFIC
CHINOOK SALMON POPULATIONS
https://waves-vagues.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/Library/40687739.pdf
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VIDEO (Part 1 of 2) - State of Salmon: Hatcheries, Climate Change & More: A PSF Presentation (appx. 19 mins)
· PSF’s VP of Salmon, Jason Hwang, gives an update on the current state of salmon in a presentation hosted by the Pacific Salmon Foundation. Topics include: hatchery effectiveness; climate change; salmon habitat; science & research; volunteerism & stewardship
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGV9y9D170A&feature=emb_logo
5 min mark for the stuff on hatcheries
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Just be happy we have hatchery coho to fish for. This is a great program.
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Best I know the Chilliwack still has a strong population of wild fish. I think most years it's about equal to what returns to the hatchery. I don't know if there are any studies that specifically indicate hatchery coho are genetically inferior. The big issue with that is relying on hatchery fish as brood stock for coming generations.
I think this is really hard to gauge. The hatchery releases a large amount of coho fry that are too small to clip - from what I remember, usually about equal to the numbers of fin clipped coho. Maybe survival of these fry isn't as good as the larger ones they release, but I still believe these are a major portion of the "wild" coho we catch in the Vedder.
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the 2017 post season release summary was 100,000 fed fry released into various tributaries. (peach Salwein etc)
Smolt release was 980,000 from the hatchery, if I read the table correctly
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/sep-pmvs/data-donnees/2019/SC&NC-IFMP-2019-PSR-eng.htm
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the 2017 post season release summary was 100,000 fed fry released into various tributaries. (peach Salwein etc)
Smolt release was 980,000 from the hatchery, if I read the table correctly
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/sep-pmvs/data-donnees/2019/SC&NC-IFMP-2019-PSR-eng.htm
Hmm, the 100,000 is in the "goal" column, but nothing on hand and nothing actually released - maybe they didn't release any unfed fry in the c/v in 2017?
I used to be able to find the other years reports pretty easy - I don't know where they went.
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While I am very grateful for hatchery enhanced fishing opportunities, it saddens me.
Those little warriors should be digging redds in the gravel beneath the canopy of temperate rainforest cedars, not laying in tubes awaiting to be gutted and fertilized in a plastic bucket.
It’s a stark reminder of how much we’ve screwed up their habitat.
I fixed it for you Clarki.
Sadly, I've come to accept the reality: humans and wild animals cannot coexist without this coexistence being at the expense of the animals. Our greed is indomitable.
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A slightly more romantic setting for these coho! Dave, Buck and I toured some of the spawning channels in the upper river watershed today.
(https://i.imgur.com/gTBUjjL.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/J5HeKxo.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/DdDmc8r.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bOnaMB2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/H8VIXiE.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/C7EEza5.jpg)
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A slightly more romantic setting for these coho! Dave, Buck and I toured some of the spawning channels in the upper river watershed today.
You voyeurs! :P
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As nature intended!
Hope those channels last at least several seasons!
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beautiful
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As nature intended!
Hope those channels last at least several seasons!
Well, Centennial has been operating at least 20 years now, Yukalup and Angelwing a few less. All are controlled water intakes in areas of relatively stable flow so they should last a while yet.
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FYI, the hatchery clips all of the coho salmon being released.
Re: numbers. I have a video overview on that coming out very soon, hopefully next week.
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That second set of pictures does not sadden me ;D
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I don't know if it is 'true' but I think many anglers including myself feel hatchery fish on average are smaller and don't fight as well as wild fish. Sometimes they seem less inclined to bite. I recall back in the late 80s saltwater anglers on the East Coast of Vanilse late Sept and Oct (even November) complained despite their high numbers didn't bite as readily as wild fish and that they tended to stay quite deep compared to wild fish that were more surface oriented. Could that had to due with changes in the Strait at the time. I seldom hear talk of that fishery anymore. Maybe it is a thing of the past.
Many experts on salmon seem to agree that salmon overall have been getting smaller in the last several years. I didn't catch a hatchery coho bigger than 4lbs this year and the does I caught were like 3lbs...tiny compared to the past. A couple of the fish Rod and Nina (hope I got your wife's name right Rod) were a good size.
The biggest wild fish I caught this year was about 8lbs. Most were 4 to 6.
Best I know the Chilliwack still has a strong population of wild fish. I think most years it's about equal to what returns to the hatchery. I don't know if there are any studies that specifically indicate hatchery coho are genetically inferior. The big issue with that is relying on hatchery fish as brood stock for coming generations.
I don't know if there is any truth to that based on what I've observed in my years of fishing FV river systems.
In my opinion, the size of coho, hatchery or wild is more dependent on conditions in the Ocean. I remember 2010 where most stocks benefitted from ideal conditions in the salt. That year, I caught some of the biggest coho ive seen on the Vedder, both Wild and hatchery.
As for the fight, I don't really notice much of a difference, wild or hatchery. I've caught 5 to 6 pounders fresh from the canal late sept. on the vedder that were full of piss and vinegar and caught big wild brutes from the slough that came in like wet noodles.
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I share similar observations with Stratocaster. Ocean conditions and where the fish were caught seems to make the difference in terms of size and strength of the fish in my books.
I fish a high elevation lake where it has its very own natural population of rainbows, probably offsprings of the T steelheads. It was planted with hatchery fish in the early 70's because of a few poor spawning seasons and heavy fishing pressure and the augmentation continues to this day. At the beginning of the planting the old-timers were pissed because they think these hatchery fish were inferior to the native fish and once these fish started spawning with the natives the characteristics of the natives, namely size and strong, hard fighting quality
would be gone forever. I was not there to catch the "natives" so I cannot compare, but pound for pound the rainbows there still give me the best fights, especially the maiden ones in comparison with other lakes. As to the size of fish, it varies depending on whether if the lake is over populated(good spawning season)and the amount of feed available. In the last 30 odd years, there had been quite a few spectacular seasons and a few poor ones(small fish but plenty).
Perhaps I shouldn't compare lakes and oceans, but here we are talking about genetic distinction and the lost of it. I am not a fish biologist so what I say mean little. The way I see it, with this "genetic distinction" on the back of everyones' mind, no biologist will dare to try anything radical to save the ECVI streams, or the T for that matter.
As I am typing this, I see my fig tree outside in my garden. This season it had given me more and bigger fruits than ever, the fruits came earlier and the season lasted longer. All I did was to mend the soil, water it and watch out for bugs. The rest is up to, dare I say, God.
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Well I don't know how 2 fish from the same section of a river, often within a few yards, returning in the same year could have been exposed to ocean conditions so different that one is 25% to 35% bigger, better conditioned for it's length and when hooked, pulls harder, jumps more often and higher and take longer to land than another and the only other observable difference is the presence or lack of an adipose fin.
I'd also add that studies such as those done by Dr Dick Beamish and others have found that hatchery smolts once released from the hatchery have survival rates from 50% to 10% of their wild counter parts in current ocean conditions
Some old timers such as (IIRC) Eric Carlisle long said that Vedder Chilliwack coho were relatively tame compared coho from other rivers of their experience.
Some one else may say it's possible that V-C wild fish with that river's huge hatchery input have been genetically contaminated by domesticated hatchery genes.
I'd say I have observed the same for steelhead and cutthroat. Cutthroat in particular show marked differences in body condition and length to weight plus fight when hooked. The advantage going to the wild over hatchery origin. That may be because hatchery cutthroat are usually raised to a larger size relative to salmon and steelhead.
But as I said I don't know if these observations prove hatchery fish are weaker, smaller, poor genetically than wild fish...just that I have observed so. Other anglers have disagreed with my observations before and I have certainly encountered exceptions to my general observations.
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I cannot argue with you Ralph because I am sure you fish more than I do and must have caught more wild fish than me.
Those are my own observations and I know is very limited.
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(https://i.imgur.com/yUsvcRC.jpg)
I forgot to include this photo last week, from the hatchery fishway.
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Is it true hatch fish are weaker, smaller, poor genetically than wild fish...... ?
At what point does habitat restoration and temporary closed upper river need to be a stronger emphasis ?
Weaker and smaller has a whole lot to do with conditions along with survival rates later in life. My family raised coho in WA for a number of years. If done right, there is little to no difference between what is raised and what is natural. However, doing it right is tough and is usually not the easy way and so very few hatcheries actually do it.
One instance is coho for example live usually up to a year in a pond/creek before heading down to the ocean. During this time they learn how to catch food, how to avoid predators, etc. At least in the wild they do that. Many hatcheries spend this time in big holding containers with nets over them. There is no prey and few predators. When they get released in the wild they have a much tougher time learning how to live and survive.
When we raised coho, we raised them up through the egg sack being gone and then dumped them in a number of ponds around the area that all fed into the creek. We would feed them in the pond with the pellets for a little bit while they got acclimated but we didn't have to do it long. And let me tell you, our mosquito population around the pond went from a lot down to nothing because those fish cleared them out. When we had spawners come back, they were large and strong. 10-15 pounds, big hook noses.
I could go on and on but hope that is enough of a flavor.
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Well I don't know how 2 fish from the same section of a river, often within a few yards, returning in the same year could have been exposed to ocean conditions so different that one is 25% to 35% bigger, better conditioned for it's length and when hooked, pulls harder, jumps more often and higher and take longer to land than another and the only other observable difference is the presence or lack of an adipose fin.
I'd also add that studies such as those done by Dr Dick Beamish and others have found that hatchery smolts once released from the hatchery have survival rates from 50% to 10% of their wild counter parts in current ocean conditions
I think the survival rate thing I listed a main culprit in my previous post. I wouldn't say it is ocean conditions, it is knowing what to do with those conditions. When we raised fish, we took the eggs from the other hatchery operating on the same system. Their fish would come back smaller, weaker, and softer than their wild counterparts. We had eggs from the same group and ours were not so it wasn't genetic. It had to be something else.
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Beamish concluded his paper on the topic with 2 thoughts about the poor survival rates of salmon smolts released from DFO hatcheries relative to wild fish;
1) we have to find out why they are so different
2) we need to rethink how hatcheries in BC operate.
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https://marinesurvivalproject.com/research_activity/list/hatchery-wild-interactions/
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Seen this posted on a different site.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0221956
To increase the abundance of Coho salmon and enhance fishing opportunities along the coast of Canada, the Salmonid Enhancement Program was established in 1970s by Fisheries and Oceans Canada (DFO) and hatchery production of these species was initiated [8]. Hatcheries were considered to be effective because the egg-to-smolt survival in hatcheries was significantly higher than that in wild stocks [9]. However, in the marine environment, lower survival of hatchery-origin fish compared to wild fish has been reported [10]. It has been suggested that due to domestication, hatchery fish generally show reduced swimming ability [11] and lower resistance to stress and diseases than their wild counterparts [12]. There is even evidence that a single generation of hatchery production can reduce the genetic fitness of wild fish [13,14]. Given these findings, the continued use of enhancement hatcheries to produce large numbers of fish for exploitation has been debated. Genetic introgression, overcrowding, competition, predation, predator attraction, and transfer of pathogens and disease are all factors that may carry negative consequences from hatchery to wild fish [15–17]. Although infectious diseases are theoretically considered to pose higher risk in high-density rearing environments like hatcheries, there is still no study showing that hatchery-origin Coho salmon increase the transmission of infectious agents to sympatric wild populations [16,18]. Infectious diseases can disrupt salmon’s normal behaviour and physiological performance (e.g. swimming and visual acuity), immunological function, feeding and growth, and can cause mortality in severe cases [7,19]. There is a clear knowledge gap regarding pathogens that can adversely affect the performance and survival of Coho salmon. Out-migrating juveniles are particularly vulnerable to environmental stressors, including infectious agents, during their early marine life, and >90% of them may die in this limited period [4,20,21].
High rearing densities in hatchery environments increase the potential for enhanced transmission of pathogens, but the use of antibiotics and other mitigation measures, such as broodstock selection to minimize vertical transmission of Renibacterium salmoninarum, may reduce the incidence and spread of diseases. Alternatively, as many hatcheries use ground rather than river water, hatchery fish may be less exposed to myxozoan parasites that have an alternate invertebrate host in natural freshwater systems. Previous research by our group suggested that naturally occurring myxozoan parasites may be a risk for wild salmon in the ocean [22,23]. Given the observed lower survival of hatchery fish compared to wild fish in the ocean [4], if infection is driving this difference, we would expect that hatchery fish be more vulnerable to infection. As such, we undertook the present cross-sectional study to test the hypothesis that hatchery-reared Coho salmon smolts carry a higher burden of infectious agents at the time they are released from the hatchery compared to their wild counterparts, and that they continue to carry higher agent burdens in the early marine environment. To test this hypothesis, we applied a high throughput microfluidics system to detect and quantitate 36 infectious agents in juvenile Coho salmon sampled in BC, and compared the prevalence, diversity, and overall infection burden of detected agents between hatchery-origin and wild fish over the last 11 years (2008–2018).
Various Studies related to topic
9.Sweeting RM, Beamish RJ, Noakes DJ, Neville C. Replacement of wild Coho Salmon by hatchery-reared Coho Salmon in the Strait of Georgia over the past three decades. North Am J Fish Manag. 2003;
View ArticleGoogle Scholar
10.Beamish RJ, Sweeting RM, Neville CM, Lange KL, Beacham TD, Preikshot D. Wild chinook salmon survive better than hatchery salmon in a period of poor production. Environ Biol Fishes. 2012;
View ArticleGoogle Scholar
11.Bams RA. Differences in performance of naturally and artificially propagated sockeye salmon migrant fry, as measured with swimming and predation tests. J Fish Res Board Canada. 1967;
View ArticleGoogle Scholar
12.Salonius K, Iwama GK. Effects of early rearing environment on stress response, immune function, and disease resistance in juvenile coho (Oncorhynchus kisutch) and chinook salmon (O. tshawytscha). Can J Fish Aquat Sci. 1993;50: 759–766.
View ArticleGoogle Scholar
13.Araki H, Berejikian BA, Ford MJ, Blouin MS. SYNTHESIS: Fitness of hatchery-reared salmonids in the wild. Evol Appl. 2008;
View ArticleGoogle Scholar
14.Araki H, Cooper B, Blouin MS. Genetic effects of captive breeding cause a rapid, cumulative fitness decline in the wild. Science. 2007; pmid:17916734
View ArticlePubMed/NCBIGoogle Scholar
15.Weber ED, Fausch KD. Interactions between hatchery and wild salmonids in streams: differences in biology and evidence for competition. Can J Fish Aquat Sci. 2003;
View ArticleGoogle Scholar
16.Naish KA, Taylor JE, Levin PS, Quinn TP, Winton JR, Huppert D, et al. An evaluation of the effects of conservation and fishery enhancement hatcheries on wild populations of salmon. Advances in Marine Biology. 2007.
View ArticleGoogle Scholar
17.Christie MR, Marine ML, French RA, Waples RS, Blouin MS. Effective size of a wild salmonid population is greatly reduced by hatchery supplementation. Heredity (Edinb). 2012; pmid:22805657
View ArticlePubMed/NCBIGoogle Scholar
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... so it wasn't genetic. It had to be something else.
They have the same genes but the "expression" of the genes is different. Raising them in tanks at high density causes some genes to be turned on that are not turned on in the wild, and others to be turned off that would otherwise be on. It's like the situation when human twins are raised separately. They can turn out quite different even though their genes are identical.
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Kinda sounds like gene manipulation to me... Took coho from 3 distinct groups and bread them all together...
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/fishy_news/file/051005.pdf
2. History of Coho Production at the Chilliwack Hatchery
The Chilliwack River Hatchery accommodates the freshwater life history of Pacific Salmon. Adults
are trapped, held and spawned. Eggs are fertilized, incubated and hatched. The juveniles are then
reared until they are sea-ready. The hatchery infrastructure consists of engineered incubation,
juvenile rearing, and adult holding ponds.
The hatchery, completed in 1980, is located on the Chilliwack River, centered in a section of the
river that is accessible to migrating salmonids. At the time of hatchery construction there were only a
few, very small coho populations spawning in this stretch of the Chilliwack River, while the largest
natural spawning areas were in the upper Chilliwack watershed and within the Vedder River
tributaries. The hatchery started its coho enhancement program with broodstock taken from three
tributary populations representative of the three main spawning areas within Chilliwack watersheds:
Dolly Varden Creek (upper watershed, early spawn timing), Post Creek (middle watershed and middle
spawn timing) , and Salwein Creek (Vedder tributary population with a late spawn timing). Since
1985, the broodstock has been taken exclusively from adults returning to the hatchery, and the run
has built up to about 65,000 adults, of which about 6,000 are intercepted along the adult migration,
about 10,000 are caught in the local recreational fisheries, about 10,000 spawn naturally elsewhere
in the watershed, and about 40,000 return to the hatchery. This results in a substantial surplus over
the up to 2,000 spawners needed for full hatchery production, and this surplus provides fish for First
Nation’s communal use, as well as economic opportunities when possible.
Although the coho program at the Chilliwack River Hatchery started as a rebuilding and
production initiative rather than a conservation effort, DFO is now evaluating the relative benefits and
risks of different production targets (i.e. different numbers of smolt to be released) in the light of wild
salmon conservation, protection, and preservation.
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They have the same genes but the "expression" of the genes is different. Raising them in tanks at high density causes some genes to be turned on that are not turned on in the wild, and others to be turned off that would otherwise be on. It's like the situation when human twins are raised separately. They can turn out quite different even though their genes are identical.
called epigenetics:
Epigenetics is the study of heritable changes in gene expression (active versus inactive genes) that do not involve changes to the underlying DNA sequence — a change in phenotype without a change in genotype — which in turn affects how cells read the genes. Epigenetic change is a regular and natural occurrence but can also be influenced by several factors including age, the environment/lifestyle, and disease state.
https://www.whatisepigenetics.com/fundamentals/