Fishing with Rod Discussion Forum
Fishing in British Columbia => General Discussion => Topic started by: JoeW on October 26, 2005, 08:45:52 PM
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???
Hello all.
Let me start out by saying that I only started salmon river fishing 4 seasons ago. I've learned alot but still have alot to learn. I have a question for you all.
Last Saturday, I was out at a quasi secret spot on the Upper Vedder. Nice slowish pool at the end of a small tailout.
Closest other fisherman was about 150 feet downstream. As I looked over at him, I noticed something strange. He was standing in about 2 feet of relatively slow moving water. He was holding his rod straight out in front of him. The float was in the air and the leader(weighted) sat in about 2 feet of water-no drifting , no moving, same spot. Every once in a while, he moved the tip of the rod forward a bit (6-12"). I thought he was trying to snag and I was going to give him hell but then he hooked a coho in the mouth and brought it in. He started again a few minutes later-same technique.
A few minutes later, he hooked another coho in the mouth. By this time, I'd moved in a bit closer to get a better look.
Finally, I went over and asked him what he was doing. He explained that he looks for fish runs in the water that many fish travel through as they move upstream-often between two rocks under the surface. He then holds his baited hook in the run. When he sees a coho approaching, as it gets near (1-2 feet away), he tugs the hook(bait) away from the fish. This infuriates the fish, and it strikes the bait. He sets the hook and reels another one in. He did take only hatchery coho, all in the mouth. He limited out in about 1 hour and went home. I didn't know what to say to him.
So my question to you all is this: is he a master fisherman who knows the river and fish so well he can take fish at any time OR is he a meat fisherman taking advantage of some pretty dumb critters and their instinctive habits. Is this "flossing" that I hear so much about on this site especially at KWB. I don't fish there as I don't like crowds so I'm not really sure what it is.
Anyway, I'd like your feedback. I'm still learning. Personally, I don't think I could fish this way. It looks really boring standing there staring at a spot on the river bottom. I think he is a meat fisherman but I wasn't sure so I didn't give him hell. Or, am I missing something here.
Comments appreciated!!
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I've never heard of that one before. However, what I have seen is guys fish pocket water with thier polarized glasses then set the hook when they see fish in hopes of snagging them in the mouth.
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He was wearing sunglasses but it was sunny/bright that morning. Didn't "look" like he was snagging but then again, I wasn't standing right there either.
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Some of 'these' fishermen are very adept at snagging fish in the mouth.
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ive read about that technique for steelheading its called dead floating. i dont know it u floss or snag or they bite. but i think ithis is a technique that is used in the states. correct me if im wrong
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I mostly fish pocket water and often wear sunglasses , I am not snagging , it's pretty hard to see the fish even in quiet pockets I doubt there would be any great success in all but the clearest water. I would say that there are people that may try to snag fish while fishing pockets just the same as on most of the other runs.
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Biffchan
Your right on the money on this one. I've been watching the jokers below the Limits Hole do this for days.They could care less who is watching, and when they do hook a fish they just turn around and smile at you.
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LOL adapting to snagging a fish in the mouth that is just the funniest thing if heard. If you are good enough that you can set the hook every float and hook all the fish in the mouth i think you deserve to keep your catch lol.
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From what I've heard is that they wear "polarized" sunglasses to see through the water as the fish move up. Wait until they see the fish move in and then dead float with minimal casting required. Keep hooks fresh and sharp and, have been told of some big fish being "caught" ???
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I have had coho on the chehalis hit a stationary bait when I had a birdsnest, it happened to me during steelhead season as well. You dont need to be on the drift to get a fish to bite. As well, flossing requires you to sweep your hook (and usually a long leader) across these travel paths. If his float/weight wasnt drifting then its next to impossible to floss.
He found a travel lane a suspended some bait in it. The guy is doing nothing wrong IF he allows the fish to swim up and take the bait inside its mouth. How is this any different than BAR FISHING!
Boring - yes, illegal - I don't think so.
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I have had coho on the chehalis hit a stationary bait when I had a birdsnest, it happened to me during steelhead season as well. You dont need to be on the drift to get a fish to bite. As well, flossing requires you to sweep your hook (and usually a long leader) across these travel paths. If his float/weight wasnt drifting then its next to impossible to floss.
He found a travel lane a suspended some bait in it. The guy is doing nothing wrong IF he allows the fish to swim up and take the bait inside its mouth. How is this any different than BAR FISHING!
Boring - yes, illegal - I don't think so.
Spot on there Gooey. It would be impossible to "floss" a fish with a stationary bait, unless of coarse those crazed coho were swimming madly back and forth across the current. ;)
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This is what we do when we're fly fishing anyways....always try to present the fly above and behind the fishes line of sight, then retreive it forwards....maybe slightly different, but isnt it just the same? If he wasnt catching any fish, would you still feel it was unethical? When you see somebody attempting to snag, without a doubt, whether they are catching or not its unethical! But I think this guy is just good at fooling fish...nothing wrong with that in my mind, im just glad not everyone has mastered it!
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Hey I would reather they do that than litter the river bottom with bouncing betties and 12 foot leaders :-X
"If he wasnt catching any fish, would you still feel it was unethical?" While I dont think its applicable in this case (because the guy wasnt snagging): YES - I do think even trying to snag fish is unethical and simply trying to snag a fish is enuff for DFO to write you a ticket....
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I'm not sure what or why "meat fisherman" has turned into such a negative phrase
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I think he is a meat fisherman but I wasn't sure so I didn't give him hell. Or, am I missing something here.
Comments appreciated!!
I don't see too many people releasing coho or sockeye. IF someone wants to eat everything they catch and be the hero on their block, then good for them. As long as they catch the fish legally, retention is allowed otherwise all fishing would be catch and relaease only.
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I think the mentality of the average "meat fisherman" puts his freezer BEFORE the resource.
Case in point when sockeye stocks looked WEAK this summer, DFO asked us to use "selective fishing methods" ie DONT FLOSS.
Hundreds of meat fishermen flocked to the fraser bars to try and floss a red spring, mean while snagging more sockeye than anything else.
That type of mentaility is why the term meat fisherman has such a negative conotation now.
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True but don't forget Chris did mentioned they were catching more sockeye on the bar rig than spring.
Is there a absolute selective fishing method?
No matter how you fish. Please be gentle with them if you are not planning to keep them. And if you are not planning to
keep the fish you catch. Try not to put too much stress into them. When you do keep your catch please stay with allowed
limit and what you can consume, no waste.
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Ok, people are tell me that polarized glasses will help you see fish in water in the right water conditions. I bought a pair of polarized glasses for 5$ a while back and they dont really seem to make a difference, they give you a darker view and take away most of the glare off the water. Is this all they do? Or is my cheap 5$ pair of polarized glasses not doing the trick? Also what exactly helps you see the fish with polarized glasses, and how well do they work?
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Polarized sun glasses takes the glare away on the water,therefore enabling you to see or spot fish easily.
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Do you think a 50$ pair is any better then my 5$ pair?, other then looks....
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Polarized lens filters out certain angle of lights. For most of those polarized glasses only 50 % of light will pass through (darker view). At deep angle (60 degree view angle it does 'see' though water very well. But once view angle decreases say at 30 degrees, it won't make much difference with or without polarized glasses.
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Big Fisher...read the thread called "know what happened to my cheap gear". Of coarse quality and effectiveness of a tool is dirtectly corolated to price...unless they're stolen you are not going to get a good pair of polarised glasses for 5 bucks.
Colour of the lens plays a role too. if its cloudy out then amber or smoke/grey lenses are much better than black as the lighter lenses wont darken things too much. Some times when spotting fish, you are simply looking for a contrast so every bit of light helps.
As well, I find that a tight fit is critical. Polarized glasses are to block reflected light off the water, if they sit too far out on the bridge of your nose then the light sneaks in underneithe the frames and this minimises their effectiveness.
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thanks gooey, yo sound like you know your stuff. Could you recommend a type of polarized eye wear to me. thanks
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JoeW:
First of all , there are no quasi-or otherwise secret spots anywhere on the Vedder. Even if you bushwack for hours to what you think is virgin territory,you will find a beer can, discarded line and a roe container. The technique is known as the method and some are so adept at it that you can stand and watch them hook several fish and still not realize what happened. Everything is shortened up, there is no "bait" to be snatched away from an infuriated fish
(I like that part) A small piece of chartreuse or red wool is there only to help the "angler' guide the hook that has been placed slightly upstream and past the fish. The flow takes it to a point where a sharp upward tug will place the hook right in the mouth. There's no casting,you simply hold the line in your left hand like fly fishing and
swing it out. There's no movement until fish are actually sighted. An expert can select the fish he wants and let others pass. All you need is good polaroids and to find the exact location where fish will certainly pass through. There is one favourite method area at the top of Allison where the canyon pool dumps into the fast chute. You
better get there early! It's jealously guarded by certain individuals. It can also be done by just casting and yanking but this is unnecessary work. The practiced artists dip their offering only when fish are sighted and give the appearance of just watching the water casually. The hardest part is locating the favoured spot in terms of water speed,and most of all,visibility.
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Well now that I have heard this explanation "the method" does sound like flossing or what have you. Hard to charge some one on something like this but the fish certainly did not bite the presentation. And with regards to flyfishing there is a big difference in how the fish takes the fly. Whether it be dryfly fishing, streamer fishing or nymph fishing the fish bites the fly because it has been fooled into thinking it is eating a food source. Big difference from this method of fishing.
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what makes you a master fisherman??
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How would it be flossing if the fish bit the roe and was hooked inside the mouth? The tugging just caused the fish to instinctively grab the offering thinking it could lose the opportunity. The fish went to the bait and not the hook 'going' to the fish.
Its the same as when a fish follows a spoon and takes it right before it reaches the shore.
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#1 - unless you (reeler) where there and saw it then who really know what was going on. Yes there are a lot of unscrupulous fishers on the vedder but there are a lot of top notch guys too. With out seeing it first hand, no point in casting stone.
#2 BigFisher, 3 vets has good polarised glasses for 14-25 buck (thats were I got mine). I would recommend calling them...any more questions, just PM me.
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No, I was not there and I don't remember calling anything illegal, unethical or otherwise casting stones. I read the post and it sounded familiar so I related my experience, that's it.
I stood behind two people and watched them one year, limiting on coho and avoiding chum in a very short time.
I had approached only because I wondered why these guys were standing on a rock in the fast run below the Cedars wearing sunglases on a dull day, staring at the water and not moving for several minutes. Then - swing, plop, fish on. I even tried it when they left - not a hope in hell, it's a knack I don't have.
I made some inquiries afterward and was told of "the Method" nothing new,both the guys were definitely in their late 50's or so and very efficient.
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First of all , there are no quasi-or otherwise secret spots anywhere on the Vedder. Even if you bushwack for hours to what you think is virgin territory,you will find a beer can, discarded line and a roe container. The technique is known as the method and some are so adept at it that you can stand and watch them hook several fish and still not realize what happened. Everything is shortened up, there is no "bait" to be snatched away from an infuriated fish
(I like that part) A small piece of chartreuse or red wool is there only to help the "angler' guide the hook that has been placed slightly upstream and past the fish. The flow takes it to a point where a sharp upward tug will place the hook right in the mouth. There's no casting,you simply hold the line in your left hand like fly fishing and
swing it out. There's no movement until fish are actually sighted. An expert can select the fish he wants and let others pass. All you need is good polaroids and to find the exact location where fish will certainly pass through. There is one favourite method area at the top of Allison where the canyon pool dumps into the fast chute. You
better get there early! It's jealously guarded by certain individuals. It can also be done by just casting and yanking but this is unnecessary work. The practiced artists dip their offering only when fish are sighted and give the appearance of just watching the water casually. The hardest part is locating the favoured spot in terms of water speed,and most of all,visibility.
Wow! I fished one time with a guy who did EXACTLY as described. He picked out nice Coho out of a pool of hundreds of Chum. I was amazed and watched him do this, he also showed us and it was almost impossible to do. He did use a center pin reel which I am not sure if it makes a difference or not.
I too have always wondered about this "method" and couldn't figure it out, but you have described it almost to the T.
No, I was not there and I don't remember calling anything illegal, unethical or otherwise casting stones. I read the post and it sounded familiar so I related my experience, that's it.
I stood behind two people and watched them one year, limiting on coho and avoiding chum in a very short time.
I had approached only because I wondered why these guys were standing on a rock in the fast run below the Cedars wearing sunglases on a dull day, staring at the water and not moving for several minutes. Then - swing, plop, fish on. I even tried it when they left - not a hope in hell, it's a knack I don't have.
I made some inquiries afterward and was told of "the Method" nothing new,both the guys were definitely in their late 50's or so and very efficient.
Again, you describe this exactly as I observed.
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True but don't forget Chris did mentioned they were catching more sockeye on the bar rig than spring.
Is there a absolute selective fishing method?
No matter how you fish. Please be gentle with them if you are not planning to keep them. And if you are not planning to
keep the fish you catch. Try not to put too much stress into them. When you do keep your catch please stay with allowed
limit and what you can consume, no waste.
Chris and a few others got into a unusual amount of sockeye on bar rigs this year that almost equaled the number of springs they got into. But if you look at it as a whole, the number of sockeye Im aware of being caught on a bar rod over 20 years is about the same as the number caught this year. Very weird!! Would be nice if this trend continued so we can perhaps get this snagging toned down, but also maybe it will reduce openings when sockeye runs of concern are in the river. Dont think either will happen as sockeye just dont seem to reliably bite the current bar fishing method. :'(
So, I dont know if you can say that bar rods are 100% selective since they do get a very small % of sockeye. Extremely small numbers yes, but 100% selective, no. Still, much better than snagging which is non-selective, but inaccurate to call it 'selective'.
Im not aware of a method 100% selective for one species of fish, but there are many angling methods that can slant the odds in your favour (in varying degrees depending on the method) of catching a certain species.
Sound advice on the last couple sentences! Right on. ;D
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Chris and a few others got into a unusual amount of sockeye on bar rigs this year that almost equaled the number of springs they got into. But if you look at it as a whole, the number of sockeye Im aware of being caught on a bar rod over 20 years is about the same as the number caught this year. Very weird!! Would be nice if this trend continued so we can perhaps get this snagging toned down, but also maybe it will reduce openings when sockeye runs of concern are in the river. Dont think either will happen as sockeye just dont seem to reliably bite the current bar fishing method.
So you see fish is unpredictable. One year one method might be for a specie the next... skunk.
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This is a legitimate way to fish. It's called high-sticking; I read it in some trout fly fishing book. You pull out five ten feet of line and you basically drop the fly (bait, hook or what have you) in front of the fish and entice it to bite without casting. In fact, in the days before reels and when they used braided horse hair died to the end of a stick, that was how they fished.
I've watched a couple of guys do this on the vedder. At first, I thought they were snagging, but each time the fish was hooked in the mouth. Also, they were not yanking or snagging. I've seen guys liimit out after a couple of hours when everybody else is skunked after fishing all day. I've tried it but I just don't have the patience to sit there and watch the same spot for five, ten, fifteen minutes for a fish to swim by.
I'm one of those guys who really enjoys winging that fly or float out there (whether there's fish out there or not). I know it's stupid but it seems like I (as many others) am always trying to cast to the other side of the river to catch fish. Logically, there should be just as many fish swimming right by my feet. I guess I get more of a rush out of 50 foot casts and long drifts instead of just dropping the hook and leading a fish for 50 inches.
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BTW Regarding polarized sunglasses, a cheap pair should work as well as an expensive pair. An expensive pair may have less distortion with higher quality lens (and the fancy name) but the polarizing filter effect should be just as good. You can increase or decrease the polarizing effect by rotating the lens clockwise or anti-clockwise (just move your head from side to side). You will notice that they seem to get darker or lighter.
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If these skilled master fishermen can consistently hook fish in the mouth without yanking their rod and they are so selective that their technique does not harm any unwanted species, why not? I have seen another version of this technique done by an older gent at the Vedder. He limited out in coho consistently while others failed.
His technique requires total stealthy set up. He dressed in camouflage, used a small 6' rod, very light line, 12" leader, small size 4-6 soft hooks, spilt shots & no float. When I asked him why no float, he replied that the float can sure spook the coho because it makes a big splash, and because it is too visible. He walked upstream & stalked coho from behind or concealed behind bush to make sure he is invisble to the fish. When he spoted a coho from behind the fish, he stripped out the line, then make a skillful and accurate under-handed cast without the slightest movement of the small rod to avoid spooking the coho. His smalll hook baited with a small piece of coloured foam would land about a foot infront of the coho which inhales it because the fish is totally unspooked. He explained that unspooked coho will bite the light & momentary presentation out of instinct because it has no time to think. Every fish I saw him caught was hooked in the mouth. He made no attempt to floss the fish, as his leader is short, and he did not set the hook until the fish was head-shaking. Who will use that kind of light outfit to intentionally snag fish? There was no way to land a fish with those small hook if not hooked in the mouth.
There are a few of these master fishermen skillful & artful in their own brand of techniques out there. Who is to say that their style is less ethical than yours, when yours can be foul-hooking a lot more fish than theirs. I don't think it is fair for us to make harsh judgement of other fishermen's style while we don't fish their style, particularly if their style catches fish legally. There is always the danger of stereotyping and piting one group against another. Just my 2 cents.
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Completely legitimate technique IMHO.
When the terminal is simply sitting in the flow, it will be immediately DOWNSTREAM of the weight that takes it there. A lift of 6-12" as described is by no means a flossing rip! It is instead a subtle movement to do exactly what it does, make the target fish believe that offering is escaping. It works well, and I've used it on occasion myself. Sounds to me like that fellow knew exactly what he was up to!
Flossing requires the leader to be as close to 90 degrees to the flow from the weight, and generally employs a rather purposefull rip to engage the hook. Not commenting on the method, nor wishing to open that particular can of worms!! Just an observation.
I think "liketofish" said it best:
There are a few of these master fishermen skillful & artful in their own brand of techniques out there. Who is to say that their style is less ethical than yours, when yours can be foul-hooking a lot more fish than theirs. I don't think it is fair for us to make harsh judgement of other fishermen's style while we don't fish their style, particularly if their style catches fish legally. There is always the danger of stereotyping and piting one group against another.
aYup!
Cheers,
Nog - who occasionally has been known to fish for meat ;)
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I agree with Iron. Unless you are a vegetarian or a pure catch & release guy, every time you go out fishing & bring fish home, you are fishing for meat. Perhaps meat fishermen are the norm. :D
We have to be careful to label some one who is good at limiting out in coho as 'meat' fishermen. If we develop a popularized mentality that every time we see a guy walking out with 4 chrome coho while others seem to struggle, he is suspect of illegal activity, or his technique must be questionable or unethical, then we are into stereotyping. :(
This is particularly dangerous for younger fishermen who have a year or two under their belt and then start formulating this opinion that any one not fishing the way he or his buddies fish does not fit into the norm, and therefore subject to criticism or suspicion.
I treat fishing techniques like martial arts. There are different masters of different schools or disciplines, and each spent a life time to perfect his/her style, and each is effective and skilled. If you don't practice, say, Tai Chi or Judo, how justified is it to comment that their styles are not legitimate because they don't knock the opponent out with a power punch or a lightning kick? So should Ali deem Bruce Lee not a legitimate fighter because he does not fit the mode of a boxer and knock you out with his lightning kicks rather than using the fists? ;D ;D ;D
In fishing, you have guys good at baits, hardwares, flies, artificials and what have u, and within each are subdivided into various types. There are also the people who like to fish w/o spotting the fish, and those who prefers to cast to sighted fish. I always get a kick out of some of the fishing shows when they cast to huge tarpons crusing by, or barracuda, or bone fish. The polarized sunglasses are needed for these folks. There is nothing wrong with that. It is up to you to choose how you want to fish legally, and how you enjoy your style is none of the business of others.
Let's have an open mind. If you see obvious violations, then report. Otherwise, have some respect for the success of others.
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I totally agreed with funfish(well said and well read) and respect others..tight line and have fun. ;)