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[blaydRnr]

same sorta story...all over the board in high school, took math11 3 times to get a high enough grade for college, at the same time pulled A's in the sciences.  After that 3 years general science, 2.5 Business... none of my education is particularly applied to my current employment but none the less valuable to who I am as a whole.  In the last 2.5 years I have had 2 additions to my family, ask me what the has taught me about life!

A lot of what we were talking about was from bio 11 (punnetts square etc) and indeed I read most of those post more than 2 times before replying!  I would like to get feedback from someone with a more current involvement in the genetics fields as I am rusty and the field of genetics is still exponentially growing.  

If indeed this conversation is too technical then it would be best to dial back the techi talk so more can benefit from the dialog!  Really what we are talking about, IMFO, is quite fascinating and I wouldnt want to loose someone with all the jargon etc.  Maybe I am drawing on more of my university genetics than Highschool Bio!

nothin' beats experience  

as far as bio 11, that's been two decades for me.

[Jonny 5]

So I tried to post earlier, but something got screwed up.  Dam hatchery computer.

Ok so my point was this (highly condensed this time because this topic seems to be exhausted).

Giving hatchery fish a better survival chance in combination with a smaller gene pool (parent fish) will result in dispropotionate level of the brood stock parent fish genes returning to the river.  This means an inbred population if the hatchery:wild ratio is high enough.

Point 2.  Don't the fishery people encourage the killing of hatchery fish when caught?  I think so. On the vedder, they kill them in the hatchery according to my sources, and they also truck them back down river.  So many of those fish are removed from the population eventually.

Anyways, just a thought.

[canoe man]

well even though some off that lingo was a wee bit over my head  
i think i got the jist of it lol

so what about letting natural selection do its thing within a hatchery setting, would take some reconstructive surgery but think about it down and dirty nasty pads for all those bad boys and girls. then when theyve dug in laid them down and laid out there life force, remove dead boddies, control temp of water, control flow of water through tank wait for eggs to hatchthen remove the fry or alvien and place in a more controlled enviroment for remainder of hatchery life.

say large long troughs with 20 pair of fish or so if a certain fish has not been able to find an appropriate mate within ten days move him or her to another tank

or go to the extremes that the atlantic salmon federation has and organise the gene pool and keep tabs on returning fish through proper I.D. pit tags so that you can keep the gene pool as seperated as possible. time consuming at first but once the initial field work is done its a very easy system to track.

cnm

[Gooey]

I guess it all really depends on what the goal of the hatchery is...is it to fortify a run or to provide a resource to comercial and sport fishers.

My feeling is that most hatcheries arent meant to protect wild stocks, they are there to provide a fish that is destine to be removed from the population.

[reach]

My feeling is that most hatcheries arent meant to protect wild stocks, they are there to provide a fish that is destine to be removed from the population.

By your definitions, it is impossible to fortify a run with a hatchery.  Anything that improves the survival rate will weaken the stock by limiting the effects of natural selection.

The only way to truly fortify a wild stock is to create more spawning and rearing habitat and limit harvesting.

That said, if we want more fish sooner, the current system of using only wild fish for hatchery brood stock and limiting the hatchery output relative to the wild stock is probably a good compromise.

[Gooey]

yes, I would agree...the key isnt pumping out more hatchery fish. I think probably mans biggest impact would be in the area of habitat restortion.

The whole hybrid vigor thing is a interesting idea (introducing genes from another population ie egg or sperm from a different river).  Basically a coho is a coho regardless of river so I don't see why they dont take eggs from one river, sperm from another and introduce that brood to a new river...seems like introducing new alleles/genes into a river is better than letting weak ones sneak in thru excessive hatchery returns and inbreeding issues.