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[Fish Assassin]

It seems once a government gets into power they seem to all do the same thing when they set into power be they Consecrative, Liberal or worse still the NDP.

Couldn't agree more. They'll say and promise anything to get your vote.

[chris gadsden]

Time to start the Fisherman Party but there is not enough of us. Bill once ran Federally I believe but he lost to an NDP er.

[Old Black Dog]

Mulroney and gang set up race based fishing in the first place. As for the rest of us, I guess it's fighting over the last few pikeminnows. I voted Green once before becuse I know the others track records on looking after old mother earth. Don't blame the first nations for wanting more than a reserve but then what about the Metis. If your the Chiefs family and you marry a white your still FN, go figure. I think were in for bad fishing times despite the treaties and bottom bouncing flossers. Someone has to take stock of our fish and do the right thing. Cummings and his ilk would only fish them to extingtion anyway.

I think things will be changing on the flossing front but this treaty thing is going to be a real challenge to try and change things as it is very complex issue. The latest document on this treaty is 600 pages long, I have not even started to read it.

Chris, you are old enough to know that you should never assume.
There will be no need to deal with flossing real soon as it is obvious that the treatys are going to be done on the backs of fish and wildlife.
Just read the latest three agreements and look at the allocations made.
Sockeye are it appears going to be allocated at 1% per band on the Fraser and there are 96 bands. That does not include all the other bands that get them in the ocean.
So much for that fishery.
Coho are allocated at 500 to the Tsawwassen band and it will not take long for all of them to be gone as well.
Chinook are allocated as well.

Check out the crab alllocation, not many going to be left there.

This was all known years ago and the public in general is going along with it.
The people who fish ( or did ) will get the clear message of what effect this has on them in the next few years.

Wait till you see the one on the west coast and the effect it will have.

Vedder river and all rivers are on the table for agreements.
Wait till the bands around chilliwack negotiate on fish and wildlife.

[ever_hopefull]

Here is the deal on the treaty.  I know someone who was really involved in this process and this is how it was described to me.  The food fishery was based on the First Nations  historic catches plus a bit to cover off future population growth of the band members.  It was generally based on a percentage of the total allowable catch (i.e. the total number of fish available after conservation has been taken into account) and has a cap.  In low run years the number will be low but in years of high runs the number they can catch for food is capped so it does not escalate beyond what they can consume. There is an upper limit.  Food fish cannot be sold, and cleans up a problem that has been occuring elsewhere.  They can use the fish to trade and barter with other First Nation members, but cannot be used to trade and barter with non-aboriginals.

The commercial fishery is not part of the treaty, not constitutionally protected and can be terminated at the discretion of the DFO.  The 1% is 1% of the fishery, however the fishery is currently 100% spoken for by current commercial and recreational fishermen.  Therefore to have the First Nation access the 1% agreed to in the side agreement, commercial licences will be bought from the current commercial fishermen and provided to the FN.  The FN will use these licences to participate in the regular commercial  fishery in the same manner as non-aboriginal fishermen, meaning they will have the same openings and closings, same locations, same requirements for catch monitoring and reporting, etc. as everyone else.

So the FN's will have a greater participation in the commercial fishery, but the recreational fishermen should not see any differences at all.

That is how it was described to me from someone who know.  We did not discuss numbers and I used the 1% as an example, but when reading through the Tswawwassen agreement the number seemed more like 0.78%, but that is close enough for this example.  Does this make sense?

[Old Black Dog]

FYI. This is only one species. It shows the fish are from the TAC not the commercial harvest.
As I said 1% x 96 bands on the Fraser, not accounting for the fish the other bands get in the ocean.
By the way this band gets Fraser River Sockeye as well.



MAA-NULTH FIRST NATIONS FINAL AGREEMENT Fisheries
110
SCHEDULE 1 – CHINOOK SALMON ALLOCATION
1. In this Schedule:
“Ocean Chinook Salmon Canadian Total Allowable Catch” means the amount established by
the Minister as available for harvest in Canadian waters off the West Coast Vancouver Island by
aboriginal, commercial and recreational fisheries of chinook salmon that are predominantly of
non-West Coast Vancouver Island stocks.
“Ocean Chinook Salmon” means chinook salmon taken into account in the calculation of
Ocean Chinook Salmon Canadian Total Allowable Catch.
“Terminal Chinook Salmon” means chinook salmon in those parts of Areas 23, 26, 123 and
126 as defined in the Pacific Fishery Management Area Regulations, that are landward inside of
a line that is one nautical mile seaward from the surfline, but does not include Ocean Chinook
Salmon.
Allocation
2. Each year, the Maa-nulth Fish Allocation for chinook salmon is:
a. an amount of Ocean Chinook Salmon equal to 1,875 pieces plus 1.78 % of the
Ocean Chinook Salmon Canadian Total Allowable Catch; and
b. an amount of Terminal Chinook Salmon equal to:
i. 200 pieces, when the return of Terminal Chinook Salmon is Critical;
ii. 1,500 pieces, when the return of Terminal Chinook Salmon is Low;
iii. 2,000 pieces, when the return of Terminal Chinook Salmon is Moderate;
and
iv. 2,600 pieces, when the return of Terminal Chinook Salmon is Abundant.

[chris gadsden]

Darn governments all seem to be the same, hats off to Cummins for standing what he believes in.

I wish I knew the answer but I donot think there is one, to stop this maddness, the reason is there is so many that donot care so one cannot stop them marching on with their agenda. Never one to give up I will talk to Bill in the next day and see what we can try to do if anything via the court system. As most know we have a lawyer that we pay a yearly fee as a retainer, looks like more work for him and us to fund raise to pay for it.

I always find it strange some groups get money hand over foot for their program and we, the good old taxpayer not only fund it but we can not tap into the gravy boat for our side of the picture.

Time maybe to march on Parliament Hill just dressed in hip waders, maybe not a good idea at the time of year as one couild freeze you know what off. Anyway, who would be interested in a bunch of old fishermen just in waders, maybe a calender would be a better fund raiser.

Its late, I am tired and getting carried away I can see that, will take out my frustrations on a duck hunt tomorrow, with the ducks most likely the wrong target.

[Old Black Dog]

In this agreement, the Province has NO limit placed on Steelhead, cutthroat trout or sturgeon.

Therefore these species are open ended and unless there is a conservation concern it is open season.

Thompson Steelhead can and will be harvested.

[younggun]

Let me put all of this conversation into a short comment. The Natives got what they wanted(all the fish) the government signed another piece of paper then read what it said on it and realised what they did. And the fisherman(us guys) Get screwed up the @$$ one more time. ITs always been like this and it always will be!

[TrophyHunter]

If you re read this entire post and only take the info given by those who actually know what is happening it isn't at all as bad as it seems.. this is just another case of things being blown out of proportion.. people like Drama and the peeps on this board are no different than anywhere else !!
IMO
TR

[Old Black Dog]

At the end of the day, there is nothing that we can do about this.

It is way beyond us, we will have to get used to the new restrictions that will effect all of your hunting and fishing as these treatys come into effect.

[ever_hopefull]

I must be missing something.     I have read the fisheries chapter of the Tsawwassen treaty, and the Lheidli Tenneh agreement, and don't see anything too scary for me as a sporty.    I suspect some commercial guys may want to sell their licence to the feds (nice retirement package) so the feds could give it to the natives, but I don't see anything causing me heartburn as a rec fisherman.  If I am missing something, then show me the sections in the agreement that I am missing.  I don't subscribe to misrepresenting facts or playing on fears or innuendo, so I don't believe cummins that the world as we know it is going to come crashing down.  Treaties have been settled across Canada for many many years, except for BC, and I don't see their sport fishing curtailed at all. 

FYI - I am not native, and am just a regular white guy from the burbs who likes to get out on the weekends.  So if anyone actually knows what parts of the agreements is problematic, then I for one would like to know so I can understand it better.

[Old Black Dog]

I must be missing something.     I have read the fisheries chapter of the Tsawwassen treaty, and the Lheidli Tenneh agreement, and don't see anything too scary for me as a sporty.    I suspect some commercial guys may want to sell their licence to the feds (nice retirement package) so the feds could give it to the natives, but I don't see anything causing me heartburn as a rec fisherman.  If I am missing something, then show me the sections in the agreement that I am missing.  I don't subscribe to misrepresenting facts or playing on fears or innuendo, so I don't believe cummins that the world as we know it is going to come crashing down.  Treaties have been settled across Canada for many many years, except for BC, and I don't see their sport fishing curtailed at all. 

FYI - I am not native, and am just a regular white guy from the burbs who likes to get out on the weekends.  So if anyone actually knows what parts of the agreements is problematic, then I for one would like to know so I can understand it better.

Did you see the lands allocated on the maps?
No you did not as the governments have yet to put them out.
Do you fish for crabs, bottom fish in the Fraser mouth area?
Do you fish Steelhead?

You might want to read it again.

[ever_hopefull]

You are right about the land maps, but I was not referring to that aspect of the treaty since I have no idea what they have negotiated. 

What I read in the agreement about crab is that they are limited to 50 traps per vessel, which is somewhat less than the 300 traps per vessel currently allowed for commercial boats.  Therefore in my calculations it would take 6 vessels to match one commercial boat.  I do not know how many crab this equates to, or if this is too much or too little for them to eat.  I certainly have my opinions, but no facts to substantiate them.  I also read that after 12 years the 'non-mention' of the number of allowable vessels, will be eliminated and an allocation will be determined to fix the amount of crab they can catch. 

I am not sure how many commercial crab boats currently fish the fishing area identified in the map, but I suspect is fairly high (5?, 10?, 20??).  I also don't know how many boats Tsawwassen plan to send out, but I suspect it is not too many given the population size and I would assume that there will be a number of natives that are off doing other things other than fishing (other careers and non-fishermen including kids, elders, etc). But I am just speculating.  .  Again, it does not sound scary to me. but that is how I interpret the clauses, do you see it differently.

[ever_hopefull]

Forgot to mention that I do not fish at the mouth of the Fraser, but certainly do fish Steelhead.  In my discussions with other First Nations,  that due to conservation concernsthey are obliged to avoid Steelhead in the same manner as everyone else especially when the Thompson fish are going through.  I suspect that this will continue, because the treaty states that conservation takes precedence over their food fish and their economic fish.

[Old Black Dog]

Forgot to mention that I do not fish at the mouth of the Fraser, but certainly do fish Steelhead.  In my discussions with other First Nations,  that due to conservation concernsthey are obliged to avoid Steelhead in the same manner as everyone else especially when the Thompson fish are going through.  I suspect that this will continue, because the treaty states that conservation takes precedence over their food fish and their economic fish.

It is all in the details.

In previous drafts of the Treaty the Province made reference to no harvest of Steelhead.
That is not in the final document.
This now leaves the door is wide open, as the Provincial Government will not move to indicate that there is a conservation problem with Steelhead.
The province has not done so in the past, so do not expect them to do so in the future.

The fact that the Province has ignored fish in this treaty says everything.
White Sturgeon are a provincial fish and they did not address them or trout.