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[Fisherama]

No need for hostility and accusations in this thread...  these discussions force its participants to consider conflicting opinions and often lead people to strengthen their original positions.

gordc -
I understand your skepticism around this subject.  The first link you provided discusses the apparent "rhetoric" littered throughout "An Inconvenient Truth".  Although this is true, I think it's important to understand the purpose of the movie and its intended audience.  The majority of the population is not highly educated.  Sometimes this "rhetoric" is necessary in order to get the message across to a broad audience.  Could you imagine the impact of such a documentary without this emphasis?  In my opinion the article in that link was equal and opposite by ignoring one of the main points, which was not solely that the earth is warming, but the rate at which it is warming.

This rhetoric has a similar effect for the major voices on the issue of salmon farming and wild salmon returns... However, the issue can become extremely clouded as parties with conflicting interests continue to submit publications, both sides sometimes misrepresenting previous studies to fit their own agenda.  Having done a fairly extensive literature review on the effect of salmon farming in the Broughton Archipelago some time ago, I found that (IMO) even publications by Morton and Krkosek sometimes pushed the envelope by misrepresenting findings from european studies.  At the end of the day, I feel that a bit of logic and judgement should be exercised.  Doesn't it make sense, that juvenile pink salmon migrating to the ocean, not having fully developed their scales, would be particularly susceptible to lice produced by salmon farms?  Are lessons from the failures of aquaculture throughout Europe and South America not enough to make us shift towards alternatives?
      
          

[Rodney]

Keep it Civil folks. As Fisherama has pointed out, opinions may differ, that's why there are discussions.

[aquapaloosa]

  So its been a year and a half since this debate reared its ugly head. 

  Unfortunately both sides of the discussion can say "show me the science"or "do your research before posting" or "your homework"  bla bla bla.  But the facts are that the science(data), most of it, is represented in a manor of convenience from both sides.  Sad to say.

  I am always surprised that no body ever states their credentials here.  So maybe credentials like what your education and occupation should be a part of the posts in this discussion. 

 Me for example,  high school education, 17 years salmon farming 14 of which spent diving, avid sports fisher pretty much since birth, out door lover, love my dog 38 years of age.  What can I say, just a normal guy.  This link kinda suggests what I mean   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PsnxDQvQpw  How ever it will not present how much I love fish.

  I have been salmon farming since before in was ever heavily on the radar(so to speak) from environmentalists here in B.C.  I have followed the "activist" and how they operate as well and in my opinion if you walk  up to an activist and ask them what they want they will say they want salmon farms gone, apposed to, we want wild salmon to flourish.  I know I know thats what they do and that how it works.  My point is is that that is that they are distracted from what they say they want by what they do and I just do not buy it, any of it.  Not that way.   

  During my years working on the farms I have seen allot of positive environmental improvements and change.  I also work in an area that has no lice problems... I am talking right next to zero lice due to the low salinity in the area.  They also do not use Medications, antibiotic, and treatments like "SLICE"
  So I do have hope.  Hope that both can co-exists.  That is salmon farms and salmon stocks. 
  So if your cringing and the hackles are getting erect on your back while you read this, take a deep breath, calm down, and try to understand that I do love salmon and I love to fish so maybe we could be friends in reality.  Some of my fishing buddies are strongly against fish farming and we are still real close friends and enjoy the discussions with out telling each other what to do like do your homework, your dumb etc.  We learn from one another and that's how this thread would be I hope. 
 
  I think that it is safe to say that anybody found on this site cares dearly  for salmon and fish in general so relax and enjoy.  Honestly, it took me a while to relax and enjoy.

IMO

[aquapaloosa]

For those who care to read past posts on the topic see the links.  It goes on and on and on and on.....

http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=20193.msg191208#msg191208

http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=20108.msg190741#msg190741

http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=20391.msg192798#msg192798

http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=20382.msg192753#msg192753

http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=20367.msg192565#msg192565

http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=20270.msg192404#msg192404

[jon5hill]

 So its been a year and a half since this debate reared its ugly head.  

  Unfortunately both sides of the discussion can say "show me the science"or "do your research before posting" or "your homework"  bla bla bla.  But the facts are that the science(data), most of it, is represented in a manor of convenience from both sides.  Sad to say.

  I am always surprised that no body ever states their credentials here.  So maybe credentials like what your education and occupation should be a part of the posts in this discussion.  

 Me for example,  high school education, 17 years salmon farming 14 of which spent diving, avid sports fisher pretty much since birth, out door lover, love my dog 38 years of age.  What can I say, just a normal guy.  This link kinda suggests what I mean   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PsnxDQvQpw  How ever it will not present how much I love fish.

  I have been salmon farming since before in was ever heavily on the radar(so to speak) from environmentalists here in B.C.  I have followed the "activist" and how they operate as well and in my opinion if you walk  up to an activist and ask them what they want they will say they want salmon farms gone, apposed to, we want wild salmon to flourish.  I know I know thats what they do and that how it works.  My point is is that that is that they are distracted from what they say they want by what they do and I just do not buy it, any of it.  Not that way.  

  During my years working on the farms I have seen allot of positive environmental improvements and change.  I also work in an area that has no lice problems... I am talking right next to zero lice due to the low salinity in the area.  They also do not use Medications, antibiotic, and treatments like "SLICE"
  So I do have hope.  Hope that both can co-exists.  That is salmon farms and salmon stocks.  
  So if your cringing and the hackles are getting erect on your back while you read this, take a deep breath, calm down, and try to understand that I do love salmon and I love to fish so maybe we could be friends in reality.  Some of my fishing buddies are strongly against fish farming and we are still real close friends and enjoy the discussions with out telling each other what to do like do your homework, your dumb etc.  We learn from one another and that's how this thread would be I hope.  
  
  I think that it is safe to say that anybody found on this site cares dearly  for salmon and fish in general so relax and enjoy.  Honestly, it took me a while to relax and enjoy.

IMO

Cite me some literature indicating that open net-pen salmon farms that lie in migration routes have neutral or positive impacts on the environment from an independent scientific source. I'm not talking about government research or acme research institute. Pure academic literature, what's referred to as the primary literature. It gets published in peer reviewed journals. I get it, we're on the same team, but you stated that, "the science is represented in a manor of convenience from both sides". If this is the case you shouldn't have any trouble finding it.

Jon

[aquapaloosa]

IMO

Jon,

  I am an ordinary guy generally and I come to this discussion as a fishing enthusiast and with a reasonable amount of experience and knowledge on the topic.  And probably  more hands on than most here.  I have high school.  Flipping through text and "peer reviewed science" papers isn't really my bag.  So no I will not go searching.  I will say this though about the broughton.  If you look at historical pink return graphs you will see that there have been massive returns during salmon farming it that area.  I am not saying there is nothing wrong or no relationship there.  That is raw data without all the hubub and it is clear raw data that I understand.  Again,  I work for a company that does not use chemicals, medications, antibiotics, treatments slice ect. and grows spring salmon in low densities.  I come from a totally different perspective.  That is what am saying.  I am just saying its out there and there are some positive things happening in salmon farming.  IMO to say that salmon farming is hands down bad for wild salmon is like saying sport fishing/food fishing/com fishing is really bad for wild salmon.  Ya sure is but if it is all done correctly than it is possible.  (which reminds me, I strongly feel that any fisher should have a fishing training course like hunting to have the privilege)
  Sadly the movement to get salmon farms gone  has become a massive distraction from so many other issues affecting salmon management.  The Alaskan Pollock fishery, global warming, forestry practices, hatchery enhancement, predator populations,  Alaskan salmon ranching(farming).
  Anyway,  it is a magnificent morning and I am well rested, feel great and have to get on with my life here. 
Enjoy the day.
 

 

[jon5hill]

  Sadly the movement to get salmon farms gone  has become a massive distraction from so many other issues affecting salmon management.  The Alaskan Pollock fishery, global warming, forestry practices, hatchery enhancement, predator populations,  Alaskan salmon ranching(farming).
  Anyway,  it is a magnificent morning and I am well rested, feel great and have to get on with my life here. 
Enjoy the day.
 

Why not err on the side of caution? Why not relish in the fact that we have massive public support for at least one threat to the existence of wild salmon, and it's a threat that we have direct control over. I don't see you out there beating drums and rallying up support to stop the Alaskan Pollock fishery, quell the seals, or ban all hatchery plantings, so why be a detractor for one such movement that makes sense. You may not have access to the literature, but there are numerous publications from wherever open-pen feedlots exist that clearly demonstrate the negative impact on our wild fish, the marine benthic environment, our shellfish, and the system as a whole. It doesn't take a scientist to realize that dumping what amounts to raw sewage into the ocean as well as pesticides, fertilizers, antibiotics, and other detergents is not good for our ocean. In fact, I think an ordinary guy can come to this conclusion quite easily.

Aquaculture in principle is an absolutely awesome idea. By relying on a predictable and renewable commodity we can both reduce pressure on wild stocks, and market it more efficiently. It is completely irresponsible to do this if it imperils the wild fishery, as has been demonstrated. We don't move against aquaculture, we move against open-pen salmon farms. High density feed lots that exist in direct migration paths of wild fish stocks are a threat to our wild fish, and I have for one have not been tricked into thinking they are harmless.

The idea I'm trying to convey is that yes, we are on the same page. You may practice sustainable salmon farming and going about it by using a native species, and at low densities to avoid any serious parasite/disease implications. This is exactly the type of practice we are aiming to universalize. Sadly, you have misunderstood us and think we're against the premise of aquaculture rather than its irresponsible abuse.  We want everyone who practices aquaculture in BC to have BC's wild salmon in mind when they do it. I can say that the ultimate goal is to get them out of the water, so that the wastes can be used as fertilizer, among other things. At the very least, we want them out of the way of the fish that actually belong here, so that their effects on migrating juveniles can be reduced as much as possible.

J