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[Prettyfly]

Ok humour me.. look at the sport fishing regulations. Do you read there to be any indication that native fishers need to follow such regulations? While you're at it, do a quick search on the last known  number of licensed sport fisherpersons and then do a search on the total native population in BC.

Ok.. back to the guidelines... It is assumed that the general population will adhear to these guidelines, won't you say?

Lets look at that root word ASSUME.. It makes an my friend out of you and me (my friend U ME) when we use it doesn't it.

Well within that website, the native population is segregated and seemingly isn't associated with any other aspect of that website - other than the one page it is assigned to.

You would think that someone within the government would stop allowing assumptions and at least SUGGEST that for CONSERVATION sake EVERYONE take precautions.. but no.. it is written that native fisherpersons are segregated. And so for many native persons along the much coveted river systems - native fishing laws are separate and conservation occures on a grander scale because their nation contributes to large scale conservation. Perhaps in their minds... they aren't the problem.

And individually, they aren't the problem, they just aren't a part of solution.. for which many people native and non-native are not a part of.

There are A-holes in every race who abuse the system. Many fly fisherpersons look as lowly on bait fisherpersons as they do native fisher persons. So who's the ultimate saint?  Where are the distinctions? How much longer before there are court battles against bait fishing and fly fishing? Not long at this rate. Once a dog is rabid it's not long before it starts attacking its own.

The above poster is right. Report it as soon as you see it. But you know, I'm sure those few native fishers are thinking the same of you. If you would just stop being so selfish in fishing for pleasure and causing such a racket about the few of them fishing, there would be more fish.

You do realize there are more sport fisherpersons in BC than there are native persons in BC.. what are the actual number of practicing native fisherpersons???..... nothing compared to practicing sport fishers. All you have to do is look at your own complaints about the 100z of sport fishers along the fraser system.

But I'm done with trying to open eyes on this subject - there are too many who choose to remain angry. That's exactly how native people feel and yet no one seems to understand or care why. Oh.. it happened a hundred years ago.. ya.. not your fault perhaps but it is when you're trying to take the last of what is sacred to native people. Fishing as they are now, occured in greater numbers 100 years ago. Maybe they are more advanced now but back then there were 10 times more of them and there was no fear of losing fish then.

But all people care about is how it affects their pleasure fishing. And honestly.. why is there a need for regulations (that don't indicate native fishing at all) if sport fisherpersons are not guilty of poaching? Think about it.

Do something constructive. Volunteer to teach a fly fishing class on reserve. Teach them about dwindling fish stocks and the value of proper catch and release techniques. Offer to train a native as a guide. I know of a sport fisherperson who used to be a poacher.. that's how he got his job as a conservation officer. Who better to know what poachers do, other than another poacher.

And frankly, fish is a staple diet for alot of native people. If you've ever been to a local college and had native friends you would know their cupboards were filled with fish, deer and rice. It's the only thing there is plenty of.

I know this because I was fortunate during my college years to have river people as my friends... A luxury you think? When that's what you're raised on, because you can't afford beef and knowing the hard work put into getting it.. maybe not so much.

[ko]

prettyfly i was reading your comments ,and i stopped about half way through, it was blah blah blah blah. a few bad apples ha, every native person i know that fishes when the fish are in to net SELL FISH AND LOTS OF FISH so dont try to say that they dont and while they are conserving our water and i mean Canadians waters with nets running across every escape route so the fish have a chance,ha ha, while the sportsman is catching fish with net marks not  only are the first nations people doing that but are also shooting any animal with antlers,oops.i meant to say any animal that walks , because they can shoot females also. and as for the sport fisherman ,i might have misunderstood you but where you saying that, there are more of us fishing than native people.well probably there is more sport fisherman. but we catch and CONSERVE THE FISHERIES. for example you see sportsman catch and RELEASE FISH all the time i have never seen a native fishery RELEASE FISH.so dont try to tell us because we are not stupid , so dont play the sport,man for being stupid and say that native fisheries is stereotyped because of a few bad apples.

[Prettyfly]

Your thinking is so narrow it hurts. 

There are plenty of natives who have conservation in mind - unfortunately for you you are in a location of contraversy. I agree. Report those you see abusing the native fishery. They make every native look bad.

But to make blanket statements as I see far too often on these sport fishing sites that "natives" are the reason .... you do yourself a disservice. Once you implicate every native - expect every native to fight back.

If you have issues with 5 or 6 individuals, create your case against them - not everyone.

Here's an example of native conservation:

http://www.syilx.org/naturalresources-fisheries.php
http://www.syilx.org/naturalresources-salmonfisheries.php

This is the area I'm from. Ya sometimes the natives do put up blockades but only when they feel they have no other choice.

You don't seem to understand, when the guidelines are being taught to people, they are not being taught to natives. It seems to me people just don't have the insight or seem to care that maybe, just maybe if we teach the kids, the kids will teach the adults. You know that old adage "you can't teach an old dog new tricks"
There are plenty of native families who take their kids out for pleasure fishing but have no clue about proper handling techniques. It just isn't something they realize they should be aware of.
Why?
Because the regulations have no mention that even if you are a native, if you practice sport fishing for pleasure these are the guidelines you should follow. Because tackle stores and department stores don't take the opportunity to say "Hey did you know there is a barbed hook ban in this area? Ya I'll show you what to do. You're lucky if they even speak to you. How many native sport fisherpersons are on these websites to know the issues you guys have?

Do you know how many native kids have fly gear? Spinning gear is more likely and they purchase hooks with barbs in them and it never occures that maybe they are sold in areas that have regulations against barbs. But who would know except a sportfisher person because it is never explained to natives.

Why is that?

You know it took a guy who isn't even from this country to take the time and explain these things to me because I was one of many natives who thought I was doing good by my kids and society by teaching them catch and release. But I wasn't doing it right and now I feel like crap for it but at least I know now. I would go to the DFO site and see Aboriginal Fisheries and figure oh ok that's where I have to look.

I went to the Cap river once and only 1 gear fisher spoke to me about how he was doing fishing and what technique he was using. Was it because of my hair or skin colour because others seemed to not have a problem speaking? I spoke to a young native guy who fishes the cap and gave him what for when he told me of some of their new techniques. I don't want to be associated with that just because I'm native.

And  yet I am. Just because I am native. And it doesn't matter what I practice because of a few bad seeds. So when I read all the bla bla bla poor sportfishermen crap I think too bad. Maybe next time you'll be more helpful to a native person trying to learn.

[ko]

well, it seems to me ,that bwe could post rplies all day, but if you really want to learn how to sport fish and teach your kids nhow to there are learn to fish classes everywhere put on by parks canada,not only that but the people on this web sight are experienced in sport fishing which im sure there would be someone willing to give or answer a few pionters to you.personally i learnt mysellf.,i watched other fisherman asked a few questoins and 20 years later i can say i know how to sport fish. im sure there are some bands that do more for the fisheries and are involved with conservation than others but when people see native people kill whales (down in the states) with a boat woth a motor and a high powered gun,s the majority dont like it . so if you would like some pionters or any quetions on sport fishing i would be happy to oblige.and if i cant answer ask rod he very up to date on various issues.

[Ribwart]

Heh prettyfly, I have known for quite some time now that all First nations bands have conservation measures in place, I think your ideas about education in the sportfishery angle are already to a small extent becoming a part programs around the country as an alternative to the food fishery for the purposes of generating economic opportunities, I don't know the specifics, but I think the ball is rolling already is it not? You sound like the kind of person who would be a benefit to just such programs even if just as a volunteer...have you ever considered? Anyway this is besides the point, I still think you have misread the tone of the previous posts....I don't think anyone is making blanket statements that the native fishery is the cause of stock declines, I believe that barring one or two posts I won't refer to specifically, the real topic here from the start has been the precedent set by the courts by overturning the convictions of four cheam band members for fishing during a closure. Now although they aren't the sole problem, the gist of it is that many of us feel that these type of activities cannot be permitted to continue to occur, regardless of who the perpetrator's may be....so the courts need to back up the DFO and CO guys out there or future transgressions will fail to be detered, ya know? This is why such stringent regulations are in place for sportfishermen, in the past poaching was probably such a problem that these regulations evolved from a need to deter that activity, now they remain in place to ensure the continuity of the guidelines required to prevent any abuse of the resource...I think it works fairly well, but when you get someone who is somewhat angry and ignorant to begin with, who sees First nations people getting away with actions like those of the four cheam band members, then it's almost giving them an excuse to do something stupid, which weakens the regulations ability to protect our resource. So I will make a blanket statement here:
Violators of fisheries regulations should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, and made an example of the consequences for such activities, regardless of race or creed.
This is what I think most of us are trying to say in this thread, and I believe is the reason why the sportfishing alliance is spending money on such cases, because they are an opportunity to send a message to poachers from any interest group, that there are people out there who will fight to prevent poachers from getting away with their actions just because of loop holes in the system....

Thx,
Rib

[Eagleye]

Ok humour me.. look at the sport fishing regulations. Do you read there to be any indication that native fishers need to follow such regulations?

Obviously DFO is not going to state native fishers need to follow sport fishing regulations because that is not the law.  What is stopping a native person from picking up a copy of the regulations and reading it???

The above poster is right. Report it as soon as you see it. But you know, I'm sure those few native fishers are thinking the same of you. If you would just stop being so selfish in fishing for pleasure and causing such a racket about the few of them fishing, there would be more fish.

What are you implying here?  Are you saying if anglers were to turn a blind eye toward natives netting fish when they are not supposed to, they would stop doing so and there would be more fish??? Are you saying they are catching more fish to spite us for making a stink about their poaching?

You do realize there are more sport fisherpersons in BC than there are native persons in BC.. what are the actual number of practicing native fisherpersons???..... nothing compared to practicing sport fishers. All you have to do is look at your own complaints about the 100z of sport fishers along the fraser system. 

There may be "100z of sport fishers along the fraser" but all you have to do is look at the catch statistics to know the impact of sport fishing on our stocks is minimal when compared to the natives. (The data is probably far from accurate but does give a ball park figure.)

Fraser River 2005 catch statistics:

Species                        Angler Harvest         First Nations Harvest         Angler Release

   
Sockeye                              42,629                     677,508                               69,814

Pink                                     17,390                     249,372                               38,522

Coho                                        0                            806                                        19

Chum                                      39                         80,910                                    172       

Adult Chinook                    13,724                      26,309                                   526 

Steelhead                              N/A                          83                                           N/A       

But all people care about is how it affects their pleasure fishing. And honestly.. why is there a need for regulations (that don't indicate native fishing at all) if sport fisherpersons are not guilty of poaching? Think about it.

This makes no sense.  If there were no regulations there would be no such thing as poaching.  Regulations are made to regulate our fisheries not because the angling community is rampant with poachers!  As a side note, a native poacher with a net can do far, far more damage than a poacher using a rod and reel.

[Prettyfly]

Obviously DFO is not going to state native fishers need to follow sport fishing regulations because that is not the law.  What is stopping a native person from picking up a copy of the regulations and reading it???

Obviously? If the regulations are in place for sake of conservation why not at least have reference to the guidelines in the Aboriginal Fisheries page? Simple solution. There is nothing stopping a native person from picking up a copy of the regulations and reading it, but if it isn't even suggested that a native person should - why would one when it is a common belief that they don't apply? I agree with you, don't get me wrong but a simple solution is to have these salmon organizations that do work with  native organizations to encourage proper handling, to have seminars or clinics on reserves. I went to a few organized events within the last few weeks and sadly felt out of place - I was out of place. Natives aren't going to go to these events when they are openly looked down upon.

What are you implying here?  Are you saying if anglers were to turn a blind eye toward natives netting fish when they are not supposed to, they would stop doing so and there would be more fish??? Are you saying they are catching more fish to spite us for making a stink about their poaching?

Sadly yes. Do I condone it - NO but time and time again sport fishermen are being made fools of by DFO and the judicial system. Why not try and find a better, more constructive solution to the issues?

 

There may be "100z of sport fishers along the fraser" but all you have to do is look at the catch statistics to know the impact of sport fishing on our stocks is minimal when compared to the natives. (The data is probably far from accurate but does give a ball park figure.)

How did you get such numbers if you aren't sure of their accuracy? I've done a quick google looking for such numbers and can't find a thing.

Regardless I'm not disagreeing because I don't know all the facts. But making blanket statements and pitting one against the other is never the way to finding resolution. Solutions are needed to be found that support each other. Most of the statistics I've seen state the largest cause of this problem is commerical fisheries but I don't see you guys boycotting or initiating court battles against Highliner or any commercial fishermen.

 

This makes no sense.  If there were no regulations there would be no such thing as poaching.  Regulations are made to regulate our fisheries not because the angling community is rampant with poachers!

You're right, and the first nation community is not rampant with poachers either. You've helped establish a better point.

And I've been looking for those photos of the shopping cart fish weir and the delta salmon dumping and other photo evidence to show my local community. I can't seem to find them anywhere. I don't want to see any of that anymore than any of you do but if all we're going to do is fight against each other there will never be a winner.

[Eagleye]

How did you get such numbers if you aren't sure of their accuracy? I've done a quick google looking for such numbers and can't find a thing...

And I've been looking for those photos of the shopping cart fish weir

I got the statistics from DFO's website.

Sport fishing stats (complete harvest stats are at the bottom of the page):

http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fraserriver/recreational/creelsurveyPDFs/2005creel/creel05FRSummerDesign.htm

First Nations Stats (I added the upper and lower river stats in my above post.):

http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fraserriver/firstnations.htm

I don't know if there is a picture of the shopping cart weirs on the net but if you go to the mouth of the Capilano river just below the marine drive bridge you will see the shopping carts.  I tried to take a picture of a native fellow stacking up rocks and altering the river bed to make his "weirs" more effective and he yelled at me for doing so.  I wonder if he felt guilty for what he was doing.

You've helped establish a better point

Which is???

[Rodney]

if all we're going to do is fight against each other there will never be a winner.

[Ribwart]

Shopping carts are no longer being used at the mouth of the capilano, I believe an agreement between dfo and native fisheries negated the use of them, as they were not deemed to fall within the guidelines of traditional fishing methods. Man made rock weirs, I believe, do fall within that category....

 
Now, when I said:

Violators of fisheries regulations should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, and made an example of the consequences for such activities, regardless of race or creed.
This is what I think most of us are trying to say in this thread...

I think I might have been wrong to some extent, as it would appear that the need to issue blame or responsibility is still in the forefront of this post, and so I will leave that exercise in futility to you fine gentlemen...

[Prettyfly]

Heh prettyfly, I have known for quite some time now that all First nations bands have conservation measures in place, I think your ideas about education in the sportfishery angle are already to a small extent becoming a part programs around the country as an alternative to the food fishery for the purposes of generating economic opportunities, I don't know the specifics, but I think the ball is rolling already is it not?

I have no idea, but you think I would because I do work as youth worker. I facilitate various youth programs both on and off reserve. Not once has my organization been contacted for an angling workshop.

However, our organization has taken kids out to fish. And..like I said before without knowing, thinking I was practicing good techiniques I was probably needlessly killing fish.

[Eagleye]

Shopping carts are no longer being used at the mouth of the capilano, I believe an agreement between dfo and native fisheries negated the use of them, as they were not deemed to fall within the guidelines of traditional fishing methods. Man made rock weirs, I believe, do fall within that category....

This is great news!  I wonder if the publicity of the shopping cart method on a certain american talk show had anything to do with DFO's about face on whether or not it fell withing the guidelines of traditional fishing methods.  This goes to show we must bring attention to these sorts of issues otherwise DFO will do nothing about it.

[Prettyfly]

You know, the way it is written in the Regulations is very misleading as well.

"If you are indian as defined in the Indian Act (Canada) AND a resident of BC: You are not required to obtain any type of fishing licence or stamp to sport fish in non-tidal waters"

Thats it.. nothing else.

So right off the bat on page 6 they tell natives they don't have to read the rest of the book because they aren't bound by the regulations.

Why isn't it at least suggested that as it is suggested for the under 16 group to at least abide by the regulations for the sake of conservation?

[Ribwart]

Hey Rib. when did they decide to not use them because as of last summer they were still using the shopping carts. I really hope this is true.

Late last summer as far as I know.....

[Rodney]

http://www.fishingwithrod.com/fishy_news/050713-1.html