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[TrophyHunter]

  The problem that seems to come from these discussions is that whites and natives assume that there is some sort of quiet war between the races... this is so far from the truth... all of us are guilty of letting one or two bad seeds ruin everything for everyone... I believe that natives deserve to have their fishing rights.. but I also believe that all non natives should have the rights too... I read about what has happened in the past .. I can see why natives would be angry.. but the fact of the matter is ... those things didn't happen during a time where I or anyone else on this board could have done a thing to change them.....  I wasn't born in this country.. but my parents went through hell to get me here.... I was given a fresh start in a beautiful country , I am very appreciative of that fact.... I pay my taxes and I live by the law and I feel that I deserve the right to fish... as do all native people..... Pretty Fly you don't have the right to hate anyone on this site or assume that there is a conspiracy against you and your people because there are a few racist people amongst us.... also you can't let what happened to your Brother cloud your mind... it is a horrible injustice what happened to your family and I am very sorry for your loss...

  There is always going to be some sort of problem as long as Non Natives and Natives continue to push the boundries.... obviously somewhere sometime somehow.. this is all going to come to a head and have disastrous consequences.... we can all try and do opur part and speak our minds.. we also all have to have a look at what we say and the accusations that are thrown about... in the end we are all humans.. and if any one of us believes that we are better than the person standing next to us we are wrong... we have to look beyond what has happened in the past and try and find an answer amongst us...

 

[Prettyfly]

I never said I hated anyone. Intentional or not people are reading what they like and then twist the meaning. I said some may read hate propaganda - that's not me saying I hate anyone.

The point - the only point was that justice system is not a fair and just system not at any level. The government pits people against each other. The only winners in government are the elected officials and the corporations that support them.

when I say 'you' I mean in general. If people aren't fighting each other - why get defensive? Why bold and highlight and quote? Because it is a quiet war, a protest against.

For me, it's hard not to get defensive when I read 'the natives'. It's such a generalized term it means all natives. I think 'what the hell? I'm native, I'm not doing that and yet some believe I shouldn't have the right? '
Some seem to believe it is something all natives do and continue using the words 'the natives'.
Some seem to believe that natives don't do anything for the sake of conservation.
Some are very violent in their reactions
Some are silent.
Some want to see it all get taken away from natives (that's why they voted conservative)
And yes, some do want to see positive solutions.
But I see more negative comments than positive solutions and the words 'the natives' are used so broadly, like all 'the natives' are the problem.

That makes me defensive. And the passion I have for trying to find a solution gets clouded. But I'm not the only one with clouded vision.

[TrophyHunter]

I never said I hated anyone. Intentional or not people are reading what they like and then twist the meaning. I said some may read hate propaganda - that's not me saying I hate anyone.

Some seem to believe it is something all natives do and continue using the words 'the natives'.
Some seem to believe that natives don't do anything for the sake of conservation.
Some are very violent in their reactions
Some are silent.
Some want to see it all get taken away from natives (that's why they voted conservative)
And yes, some do want to see positive solutions.
But I see more negative comments than positive solutions and the words 'the natives' are used so broadly, like all 'the natives' are the problem.

That makes me defensive. And the passion I have for trying to find a solution gets clouded. But I'm not the only one with clouded vision.

you are right you never said you hated anyone!!  I appologize for that

and the reason you see so much negativitity is because the negative people are always the loudest and most often heard... if you set up a poll on this site I will personally guarantee that a high % of people would choose the option which best suits both sides not just natives and not just non natives....

there are always going to be idiots in this world... unfortunately that is the way it is....  but I personally know alot of people on this site and you would be hard pressed to find a finer group of people.

[Eagleye]

when I say 'you' I mean in general. If people aren't fighting each other - why get defensive? Why bold and highlight and quote? Because it is a quiet war, a protest against.

Why bold, highlight and quote... because this is a discussion board.  Topics are constantly being debated and discussed amongst members as that is the nature of a discussion board.  People are responding to your statements becaused they either agree or disagree with them.

Some seem to believe that natives don't do anything for the sake of conservation.

Some want to see it all get taken away from natives (that's why they voted conservative)

I don't recall anyone saying natives don't do anything for the sake of conservation.  Just because someone votes Conservative does not mean they want to see everything taken away from the natives.  That is an outlandish statement.  For the record I voted Green.  As the well being of the environment is at the top of my priority list.

I think I should remind you of a statement you recently made on another thread

Lets look at that root word ASSUME.. It makes an my friend out of you and me (my friend U ME) when we use it doesn't it.

Some are very violent in their reactions

violent? I would consider the actions of some Cheam members such as taking a dfo officer's vehicle and ramming a dfo boat as violent.  But I think you are over reacting in your perception of some of the posts on FWR.

[Prettyfly]

Ok Eagleye

Do you feel better now?

It's apparent that SOME are going to choose to twist words.

If you would all read somewhere in the beginning I said "I've been reading through the archives"

I've been reading through the archives. I searched CHEAM. It's a pretty hard read when you are one of 'the natives'. It's pretty hard to read all of that and not feel defensive. I just started reading them this week. Read through the archives and think how it might come across to a native reading them

And maybe SOME think 'oh this persons just here to cause a flame war'. I've been a bait fisher person my whole life. In the past 9 months I've bought every issue of Fly fusion and the provincial sportfishing magazine. Why? To learn how to fly fish. I feel the need to be knowledgeable and not be left out of a conversation with my partner. If he's going to suffer through karaoke night for me, I will learn to fly fish. I want to be sure I know what I'm talking about when I try to teach my kids more about the sport and why tho they're native, they shouldn't feel it is something they can't enjoy too. 9 months ago, I knew nothing about fly casting and had no interest in teaching my kids, but now I have some knowledge and my kids are interested in learning with me.

 Within that BC magazine I have read articles that should never have made it to print. Women cant spey cast? What kind of garbage is that? Virtually every article that mentioned 'first nation' was negative. Regardless, I'm here reading these things to learn. Ive bought a 12 Basic Skills of Fly fishing to try to learn fly fishing. I've learned the way it is written is not as easy as people say. I've had to read the stupid little book 3 times and I still can't figure out how to tie a leader on. Every fishing forum (approx 20) have found I have bookmarked. All the local (provincial/washington) websites I've seen that are of interest to me I bookmark. I have 7 seprate folders for each sub category. I try to read them all. I try to go back through the archives of alot of sites because people don't like having to answer 'newbie' questions. There's a lot of information in those archives.

 I teach my kids how to sport fish according to catch and release guidelines because I think it's the correct thing to do. If we're not catching to keep then I should teach them the proper methods.

 I've noticed one thing about all things sport fishing - it seems alot of the time, when something happens along the river, first nations are implicated.

Yes I know some of the CHEAM membership were violent, I am in no way trying to defend THEM. Choice in wording needs to change. I get flack when I say 'non native' (purposefullly done to prove a point about generalizing) because I get defensive when I read "THE NATIVES" It's a term thats just thrown around like it doesn't mean a whole group of people. That's disrespecting a whole group of people who do not deserve that.

And I could go back and cut and paste and make a whole new conversation just as easily but to what end? To bicker. I feel like I'm having a cat fight with another woman.

[TrophyHunter]

You know Prettyfly it seems to me that no matter what is said to you .. you are going to see it as negative.. it is really too bad..it is obvious to me that you are just looking for an argument... for one second try this....  don't be native... don't be white... just be a human being...

[Eagleye]

I didn't twist your words I quoted the part of your statement and pointed out what I didn't agree with.  I think it's great you are interested in fly fishing and you are teaching your kids about it but what does this have to do with the thread?  What do you want a medal or something???  As to your complaints about the content about a certain magazine, why don't you send in a letter to the editor or go join a womens lib group so you can vent all you want.

[Prettyfly]

You know Prettyfly it seems to me that no matter what is said to you .. you are going to see it as negative.. it is really too bad..it is obvious to me that you are just looking for an argument... for one second try this....  don't be native... don't be white... just be a human being...

Sorry I wasn't writing the previous statement to  you.

Sometimes, I'd like to be seen as just human. That would be really cool sometimes. Here I suppose I could be anything because you can't see me.  And I suppose I could just put my reactions to some of the topics on the back burner because I'm a minority here and i don't want to be seen as always being negative. But I wasn't raised that way. If I think something isn't right, I speak out about it. Oppression is often done by people who don't realize they're doing it. I won't deny who I am. It's not something I can just turn on and off like a light switch.  My father lived the majority of his life on my reserve. I was born and raised with a native mindset. Don't ask me how that is any different, it just is. I don't relate to my french relatives, we don't think the same. And maybe some of you would rather just think bla bla bla we're all canadian. We aren't. We are living within the boundaries of a country that prides itself on its diversity.

Eagleye
What does it have to do with this thread? It's unusual for a native to be interested in sportfishing. The typical involvement seems to be through threads like this, that speaks of a native doing something against. Against... whatever the subject matter might be.

I am interested in sportfishing.  I am going to have an opposing view, not all the time but some times because there isn't always going to be a reason to be opposing.

You don't see me being opposing when I'm asking about carp fishing. you don't see me being opposing about trout lines. I'm native, I'm going to have a different point of view with regards to native issues.

The Sto:lo people feel threatened. We all know how congested that stretch of the fraser is. Sportfishermen get on each others nerves. Sportfishermen complain about being packed in like sardenes. Imagine how the Sto:lo people feel. And for information sake there's over 3800 Sto:lo nation people. Some of them are doing things without fully thinking them through because they are angry, so angry that there are seemingly thousands of sportfishermen on the river on a daily basis.

How does that make you feel when you're crowded out of a much loved fishing spot?

[Eagleye]

I'd also like to add that if aboriginal people, in particular the Cheam don't want to look bad in the eyes of the public, in particular anglers then why don't their Cheif or representatives state publicly and amongst their members that they do not condone selling fish they are not supposed to, fishing out of season and with prohibited methods.  And why don't they repermand their members for doing so and also pressure government and dfo to do something about it???  Ernie Crey of the Cheam whom frequently speaks on their behalf is constantly thumbing his nose at dfo, government, anglers, and commercial fisherman.  

[Prettyfly]

I'd also like to add that if aboriginal people, in particular the Cheam don't want to look bad in the eyes of the public, in particular anglers then why don't their Cheif or representatives state publicly and amongst their members that they do not condone selling fish they are not supposed to, fishing out of season and with prohibited methods.  And why don't they repermand their members for doing so and also pressure government and dfo to do something about it???  Ernie Crey of the Cheam whom frequently speaks on their behalf is constantly thumbing his nose at dfo, government, anglers, and commercial fisherman.  

Because the DFO and government keep trying to change the 'existing' rights of Aboriginal people. They can't do that. It's written in the constitution. Since it's written in to the Constitution that Aboriginal people have a right to fish, the DFO is limited in its jurisdiction.

Why would the chief try to dimish the right of his people? I don't think they are particularly concerned with what sportfishermen think of them. They're defending their rights as written in the Constitution. You know the government wants to lump all first nation people together as being the same. We're not the same, we all have different cultures. Granted there are similarities but we are all distinct. Okanagan people are not Sto:lo people, Carrier people are not Squamish. It's in accurate to think all Aboriginal people are going to think the same.

I - me personally, do not want to be thought of in the same light as some first nations. I don't believe we have to be violent to be heard. I do believe we all have to be heard and not judged. I think we have to try hard to come to an understanding. We have to try hard to understand where the other is coming from.

[Eagleye]

Why? because their right to fish will be worth nothing if their are no fish left.  The reason DFO makes openings at certain times is to protect fragile stocks from over fishing, which could possibly lead to extinction.  If aboriginal people who fish whenever they want with whatever they want continue to do so it could have dire consequences on runs that cannot handle the pressure.  Am I saying aboriginals fishers are the sole cause of why are some of our stocks are critically low...NO.  But the fact is they are low and must be handled accordingly.  As a native fellow once said to me, they (reffering to aboriginal fisherman) are gonna wipe out the fish in that river (Fraser) and there will be nothing left for my grandchildren.  He went on to tell me how disgusted he was about how much of the fish goes to waste and to support certain members booze habits.  He did not fish himself but commented on how he did not feel he got his fair share of fish from his band members that did partake in the fishery.

[Prettyfly]

I can't speak for that particular first nation. I don't know what their motive is, I don't understand it either. I know what my nation is doing. They're reintroducing salmon stocks. They've identified that the salmon are trying to get back into the Okanagan dispite the dams in place. We have one community fishery celebrating their return. I haven't heard of anyone complaining about that, and that's good because it was the okanagan people who believed it would work, not a whole lot of other people. It had to be proven first that there were actual ocean going salmon in the lake.

Maybe the Cheam membership see sportfishermen packed in like sardines and think the same way. If you're all catching and sometimes releasing but extremely roughly (as I've read, which *I* know you all arent,) if they're witnessing this mishandling maybe they're thinking the same - the runs cannot handle that kind of violence and that amount of pressure.

Maybe they think what you do cannot be justified because it is done for pleasure. I'm just taking guesses.

I agree with the native fellow who spoke to you. I don't defend my inherent rights to have them stomp all over it.

But that's one nation with more than 38 hundred members, with probably 200 +/- practicing their inherent right. Compare that to the impact of commercial fisheries. It's not just Canadians fishing commercially, it's all the countries in the pacific rim. They have an affect on our fisheries - an affect we aren't even sure of. We don't know how the salmon are fairing out there in the open ocean.

The government is allowing corporations to rape the waters, polluting it with factories and saw mills along the shore, dumping oil and other toxins from trains and boats. Licenced sportfishermen beating on fish because it's not open to keep them. And then openly talking about how those fish will probably not survive because of how they were handled.That's just sickening.

There's a bigger picture, a bigger cause to the problem. And right now, because they see you and you see them and each thinking the other is wrong...

It's the fear mongering that is making this so hard. Oh the natives are doing this and this, just wait until treaties.. omg what's going to happen then. Oh our rights will be gone and the natives will have everything. omg... the irony to that thought.

[Eagleye]

Have you ever heard of the saying two wrongs don't make a right?

[Prettyfly]

Are you trying to instigate an argument with me?

What kind of statement is that? Have I ever heard of two wrongs don't make a right. I'm not 12

What is your point?

[Eagleye]

My point is that just because there are other factors affecting the survival of fish does not mean native people should not fish responsibly.  IMO it is the responsibility of all who use the resource to do so in a sustainable manner to ensure the surival of our salmon for the well being of species reliant on it and for the sake of future generations.  Just because "The government is allowing corporations to rape the waters, polluting it with factories and saw mills along the shore, dumping oil and other toxins from trains and boats" doesn't mean that natives should fish whenever they want with whatever they want in spite of this.  Anyone can blame all of the injustices surrounding the management of our waterways but if they are not doing their part to impact the environment as least as possible and fish sustainably then they are just as much to blame.  This is a fundamental problem in society that affects the environment.  Everyone thinks it is someone elses fault and the problem is so overwhelming that they don't think of what their doing that is affecting the environment because in their mind it pales in comparison to the problem as a whole and see it as futile.