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[Rieber]

There are many factors causing the decline of the natural fish stocks. Yes, without doubt fish farms cause some small degree of causualties but that's a drop in the bucket.

Over fishing by commercial fleets to supply Suzuki and all the other wild fish only eaters. But the biggest factor by a long shot is the effects of global warming. Escapement numbers are far too low to sustain the species in the long run. The rivers are too warm and too low. Even if you could get more salmon to survive and make it to spawn - there spawning streams are mere trickles of what they were decades ago so the rivers won't support much more spawning activity.

Now this deal with the sea lice - of course there is more sea lice under fish pens - it's simple math - a high concentration of salmon = a high concentration of sea lice. But along with that, like many other parisites and organisms, the lice are flourishing with the warmer temperatures. I also firmly believe the sea lice are evolving to survive in fresh water. I'm sure studies prove that sea lice are thriving at the mouths of streams and rivers where they enter the ocean. Un-natural evolution due to the global warming caused by industrial growth.

Say for a minute you pulled all the fish farms in the oceans but still maintained the same consumer demands - what do you thiink would happen Xgolfman? Where would all that fish come from? Come on, think about it for a while. Nobody ever said the fish farms are the perfect solution to our salmon shortage but until they find a better solution, engineered controls or a complete salmon fishery closure and a way to turn around global warming this species, like us, are here on borrowed time.

[Geff_t]

Is the sea lice problem not caused by the excess feed and the waste that is created by these fish in the shallow bays. The pink salmon that return to the rivers in these shallow bays have almost been cleaned out due to this. I don't think that this is caused from global warming because then the pinks from our neck of the woods would also not survive. It is the fry that leave those rivers to go to the open waters that pass under these pens and get killed from the sea lice that they pick up. That is the major cause.

[bbronswyk2000]

You are correct flyguy about the feed. Its been proven. Rieber I would like to see where you are getting this information from. Since they have aired that series on Global I have been doing more research on this topic and it seems pretty simple to me.

[Xgolfman]

There are many factors causing the decline of the natural fish stocks. Yes, without doubt fish farms cause some small degree of casualties but that's a drop in the bucket.

Over fishing by commercial fleets to supply Suzuki and all the other wild fish only eaters. But the biggest factor by a long shot is the effects of global warming. Escapement numbers are far too low to sustain the species in the long run. The rivers are too warm and too low. Even if you could get more salmon to survive and make it to spawn - there spawning streams are mere trickles of what they were decades ago so the rivers won't support much more spawning activity.

Now this deal with the sea lice - of course there is more sea lice under fish pens - it's simple math - a high concentration of salmon = a high concentration of sea lice. But along with that, like many other parasites and organisms, the lice are flourishing with the warmer temperatures. I also firmly believe the sea lice are evolving to survive in fresh water. I'm sure studies prove that sea lice are thriving at the mouths of streams and rivers where they enter the ocean. UN-natural evolution due to the global warming caused by industrial growth.

Say for a minute you pulled all the fish farms in the oceans but still maintained the same consumer demands - what do you think would happen Xgolfman? Where would all that fish come from? Come on, think about it for a while. Nobody ever said the fish farms are the perfect solution to our salmon shortage but until they find a better solution, engineered controls or a complete salmon fishery closure and a way to turn around global warming this species, like us, are here on borrowed time.

Thank you Pat for a well thought out answer!!! I've watched the series Brain has talked about and another one down here about it... I don't think global warming has anything to do with it...The stocks are depleted down here because of the damn dams...( threw in a little funny there) .. they have killed off all our runs for the most part and we are only now addressing that and looking at taking the dams down in a few spots...
Overfishing is of course a problem but not so much with our fisherman but the damn Russian and Japanese fleets who come into our waters and rape ALL the sea life till we scramble our Coast Guard to chase them back out to international waters, where they wait and then do it again... I would rather position one of our subs and sink a few of them and see how much better our returns would be...
Here's another curve they are about to throw at you..."Organic fish" and guess which fish are deemed organic??? Yup, pen fish!! How??? Because they can be shown to only be fed organic matter and so "Earn" that label....True wild fish can't....How's that for bending you over again???
FF your too easy to.... your a minnow in the big fish pond.... Please think before you speak...or at least have a F****** clue what we're talking about OK?

[bbronswyk2000]

Their have been suggestions that closed pen fish farms could work. Here is an article on it

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/story.html?id=47bffed4-2ce5-4316-904a-03f141b79679&k=791

[Rieber]

BB, I worked for a supplier to the aquaculture industry and I had so many publications, journals, reports, studies and documents that have hit my desk and computer that I would ever wish upon anyone to read. Not to mention the numerous meetings, workshops and tours. Believe me, I've had a lot of exposure to these issues over the last 10 years. By no means am I a biologist that has dedicated my life to this cause.

I find it pretty funny that so many people from outside the industry who have watched a week long series designed to shock and aww people into seeing a one sided view has turned so many into backyard biologists and fish farm opponents. Good for Global, maybe they'll win an award.

Now I'm not going to call anyone simple for thinking so, but if a solution were really that "simple"-  don't you think it would have long been implemented?

Xgolfman and BB, you guys have the same opinions of many others that just look at the surface and that's okay, that's how we're brainwashed into believing whatever the media wants you to believe. But I challange you to really do some "in depth" research. Not the crapthat everyone just spews out so freely. Start looking at real facts. Or don't - just keep on believing whatever Global wants you to believe.

BB - by the way, when did Global run the series -  last week? You're a pretty busy guy with three kids to look after and fishing on the weekends. How much research did you really do. It doesn't matter, I'm not interested in a pissing match with someone who doesn't have enough factual information on the reality of this topic.

[bbronswyk2000]

Why make this personal Pat with bringing in what I do all day? Did I get personal with you?  So if I have an opinon that differs form you are always going to bring up what I do all day? Is that fair?

BTW I just did searches on fish farms. My kids are all in bed by 8-9pm I stay up untill atleast 11pm meaning I have 2 hours every night to do what I want. Not that I needed to explain myself but lately people have been trying to bring in what I do all day into every topic. How about this. My mother passed away one week ago at the age of 56. You dont think I am dealing with enough that I have some guys on the internet trying to get personal? Shows the kind of heart some people have....

[Rieber]

"Organic" is just a BS marketing term used by the farms to sell their goods after being hit by so many activists against the fish farming industy. Hell, that's been a slogan on bumper stickers for years.

Closed pens are not cost effective - sure you can do it - but at what costs? Once you start pumping water and treating waste what's the point. The pollution caused to run those farms and the cost incurred make it a no start. But the industry has to keep trying.  Look at the emmision damage caused by vehicles - it's sure taking a long time to get clean technologies in operation and look at the costs in the mean time. Same as these fish farms. THese are all good efforts but it's not simple - it's going to take time and huge dollars to make this work. And who wants to be the guinnie pig. These farms are there to make money.

And don't think for a moment that there is big money in fish farms. There are no margins left for the suppliers and the farms are at the mercy of the environemt. Disease forces farms to harvest premeturly before they get large enough to pay back the expence they consume, algea blooms and other kill-offs just keep piling expenses. Then whenever a farm gets lucky and they get a good harvest - the commercial guys seem to get a surpus of salmon and the prices drops out due to surpluss in supply. It's a no win for the farms and to those that supply them. Most of the small farms have sold out to a few large players now. That's the only way they can survive. If one farm has total collapse, the hopes are that other farms within the company group have a positive year just to stay afloat.

Again - if it were a simple solution - it would have been done long ago.

[Rieber]

Hold on there Bryan. I'm not the one who got this ball rolling. Have a read a little ways back. You called me out and I just replied - that's all. I'm not interested in making anything here personal. I'm sorry if I made you feel personally targeted.

That's the biggest challange with these forums and emails - a person can missinterpet what another is saying or writing. Whether the intent is to drive a nail or simply make a point these opinions are subjective to the reader.

Bryan, I read hostility from both Xgolfman and youself - I resoponded in a backhanded way to get your attention. That's it. No harm meant. And come on - you're bigger than that.

Opinions are just opinions, I really don't care what others think of my opinions on these forums because so much is BS anyways. Hell I'm scratching my head right now wondering why I'm wasting my time on the computer when I should be rewiring a boat trailer.

I guess you just need a hug. Smile the weekends almost over.

[Big Steel]

Why make this personal Pat with bringing in what I do all day? Did I get personal with you?  So if I have an opinon that differs form you are always going to bring up what I do all day? Is that fair?

BTW I just did searches on fish farms. My kids are all in bed by 8-9pm I stay up untill atleast 11pm meaning I have 2 hours every night to do what I want. Not that I needed to explain myself but lately people have been trying to bring in what I do all day into every topic. How about this. My mother passed away one week ago at the age of 56. You dont think I am dealing with enough that I have some guys on the internet trying to get personal? Shows the kind of heart some people have....

I don't see how Pat was being personal.  He just stated what you have already told everyone many times.  I also don't see how doing searches on fish farms for a couple hrs if that in a night could be called research..... Your misuse of words is astounding.  Now with this I fully expect you to get all whiney and not want to play anymore.  Pat wasn't personal, this just might be, or it could be that if you are going to spew your verbal vomit on forums that you are going to get called on it every once and a while...  I just can't believe some of the crap that you say sometimes....  do you ever read your own posts and think before you hit the post button?  Or are you just that thick?

[bbronswyk2000]

Pat all my posts prior to that one were not calling you out. I believed you knew what you were talking about and honestly just wanted to know where the information came from. If their were any sources on the internet that I didnt know about I would like to have read them to learn more thats all. I know your a good guy thats why I didnt understand where that last comment from you came from.

OK Dave you want to get to get personal? ( you just made it personal with that last post ) How about all the stories you tell? Like your dad lifting a car? I mean come on atleast I dont make things up and lie to people. You have many more stories I could go on about on here but I dont need to and I dont like calling people out so I am just proving my point. We are now even and I would like it if you would respect my next request. I dont want anything to do with you. I would appreciate it if you would just ignore my posts and not reply to them. I will do the same. This was not even about you and you stuck your nose in it. Pat and I were having a discussion and all it was just a misunderstanding between us. Nothing serious.

[stlhd4ever]

There is a simple solution, just don't do it. If there is no real money being made there would be no point in keeping them open .How much of this fish stays in our country? Are most of the farms not owned by europeans and the majority of the fish gets exported? Pls correct me if I am wrong. It's time for the government to put a stop to this before our wild fish begin to suffer. Did you know that juvenile atlantic salmon are as aggressive as bass. They have been seen spawning in our rivers around b.c.. What do you think is going to happen when more atlantics return every year to spawn and survive in our waters. Are the farmed fish genetically modified to not reproduce? Let's hope so

[Big Steel]

Brian, you just crossed a line talking about my passed Dad.  You are a piece of crap.  Let's here all these stories you say you have.  You are a small minded little man.  I should be a better person than this, but I have been sitting back for a long time watching you spew about how much you know about everything.  As for my dad, trust me anyone could lift a car if they had to and I mean had 2.  Adrenaline is a funny and powerful thing.  But, if you ever say a word about him again, we are going to have a chat.

[bbronswyk2000]

We are not going to have a chat because I am not going to talk to you. Like I said ignore me and I am going to ignore you. MOVE ON!!!

[Big Steel]

As long as you shut your yap, we won't have to "chat".