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Sporting

20 (29%)

Harvest for any species of salmon

5 (7.2%)

Snagging

19 (27.5%)

Harvest but only for Sockeye

17 (24.6%)

Dont care I'll do what ever is in the regs that gives me the best chance to catch a fish regardless if it bites or not.

8 (11.6%)

Total Members Voted: 66

[chris gadsden]

Well, after checking out the messages for about a year on this site without posting I figured it might be time to chime in. Not simply to perpetuate a tired argument but to simply lend a perspective. I watched the thread re: bb'ing(flossing) on the board last year, and there were some good arguments and very well thought out posts. However there were also some very questionable perspectives. I've been fishing nearly since I could walk, and I guess I'm what you could call a true "die-hard". I fish year round, I chase nearly every species our waters have to offer. I fly fish, drift fish, bar fish, toss spoons, troll, plunk or whatever else it may take to "entice a fish to strike", and I consider myself fairly experienced. I worked in the sportfishing industry in a couple of different capacities, and worked on both government, and private fish habitat restoration programs. I've also taken part in numerous fisheries related protests over the years. Anyways I digress.... What I've witnessed over the last few years in lower mainland fishing is actually quite alarming, and frankly from someone that has spent countless hours in piscatorial pursuits, I might even say it's depressing. I remember very well, when flossing gained it's popularity. It was exciting because there was finally a way to catch these wily sockeye, and let's face it they're a heck of a lot of fun to catch. Everybody got out there and tried it out, and we( Heck yeah I WAS a flosser), had tons of fun. The excitement however did not last so long for many of us, once it became inherently obvious that these fish just weren't biting. They were being snagged. Just kinda took the fun out of it, and it sure adds insult to injury watching a few gorgeous springs being dragged in, snagged in the fin...or back...or belly....and many of them bonked. What really turned me off was the attitude of some participants, fights etc., and the disregard for rules and fishing ethics. Whether it's the way individuals treat one another on the river, or the way they treat their catch, there's no doubt it has entered a downward spiral since flossing gained it's place at the forefront of lower mainland fishing opportunities. As the number of fishing participants rises(and it sure seems busier year after year), there seems to be a genuine influx(on nearly every body of water) of people that just don't understand what fishing is about, and seem to lack proper etiquette. Sorry to say it but I do think the sockeye fishery is largely responsible for it. BB'ing(with a leader longer than 24in) has no place on the Fraser for springs....'cause they will bite using proper methods, and it surely has no place on any river other than the Fraser. I guess a BB'ing opening for sox, simply for harvesting purposes may be worthwhile. There is NO way to "selectively" floss, and unfortunately it is not a good practice when endangered fish of any type are in the system. But let's not forget, FISHING: the art of catching a fish by enticing it to bite, has never been easy but anybody can learn the tricks of the trade and catch their FAIR share too. Just takes time. Along the way though, you must also care for the resource, and embrace the etiquette and methods that made fishing a passion for all of us in the first place. Sorry for the rant and I know many of these points have posted already....but we've got to address the issues facing sportfishing today properly in order to protect it for the future.

Cheers,

Arnie

Nicely put Arnie. Most of us have participated as you once did but it is very positive to see more people giving up this activity every year. This year there was many that would be out after chinook now but they are starting to come around and the resource will be the benefit of this in the future. High water of course does make a difference also.

With the request notice now out and I have been sent a few hundred by FOC today to distribute to some more tackle shops I believe most anglers will refrain from this activity for the next few weeks and until there is a possible sockeye opening in August. Remembering at the same time the forcast is for no sockeye openings in 2008 because of conservation concerns. These anglers know that if they want fishing opportunities for their children and grandchildren in the years ahead they will have to make changes, we all will.

[Steelhawk]

Like I said, relentless lobbying by well-connected individuals to shut the bottom bouncers down even though we do not catch sockeyes in early season. DFO should send their observers out to watch how many sockeyes are actually caught accidentally by bottom bouncers in early season, insteading of listening to biased opinion of a few flossing haters. The bottom bouncers are the majority and yet they have no say. So much for fairness and democratic process. The vocal minority group who knows the insiders of DFO overrides the wishes of the majority of fishermen on the Fraser. The end result will be a lot more business for the natives from those who have acquired sockeye taste and yet barred from catching the fish by themselves. The sins of all those additionally poached sockeyes will be upon those who have their hands in encouraging such happening directly or indirectly. I hope by then those who manage to shut down sockeyes fishery through their influence will have the gut to face up to the natives and save the sockeyes from the their drift nets and illegal poaching. Good luck there.

[DionJL]

DFO should send their observers out to watch how many sockeyes are actually caught accidentally by bottom bouncers in early season, insteading of listening to biased opinion of a few flossing haters. The bottom bouncers are the majority and yet they have no say.

LOL they have no say because they have no one (shy of a few like Bill Otway) willing to step up and represent them. Where are the Chris Gadsden's of the flossing community? Don't b!tch about something that is entirely up to your user group. You never hear about all the Pro-Flossing activists, because there are VERY few. Most are passive not active.

I still think everyone should include in their signature or under their avatar their Flossing stance. Pro-Flossing, Anti-Flossing, or in my case Pro-Choice.

[troutbreath]

From todays Vancouver Sun

A group of Fraser River first nations plans to defy on Canada Day the federal government's no-fishing edict aimed at protecting the prized early Stuart sockeye run.

Members of three bands are heading to Yale, where they are expected to be met by federal fisheries officers if the dry-rack fishery goes ahead Sunday.

A native leader said the three bands are convinced the early Stuart run isn't threatened by the planned fishery.

He urged federal enforcement officers, engaged in some tense clashes on the Fraser River in past years, to be cautious.

"I'm thinking about the safety of the elders and children," said Grand Chief Doug Kelly of the Sto:lo Tribal Council.

The Cheam, Chawathil and Seabird Island bands are taking part in the fishery.

Federal spokeswoman Michelle Imbeau said Friday that government officials have discussed with native groups the need for a three- to four-week closure of the native food, social and ceremonial fisheries on the Lower Fraser to protect the early Stuart run.

"Fishery officers will be monitoring the situation and will be taking the necessary enforcement actions," Imbeau said in an e-mail to The Vancouver Sun.

Conservative MP John Cummins said the early Stuart is weak because Fraser River bands have consistently overfished the run.

"It's totally irresponsible for these guys to be fishing because if there's not many there it doesn't take a whole lot to put the run at risk," said the MP for Delta-Richmond East.

The federal government estimates there will be 45,000 early Stuart, 690,000 early summer, 3.4 million summer and 2.1 million late summer sockeye.


So much for conservation........on the flip side theres probably going to be some $10 Sockeye for sale.

[Arnie]

Thanks Chris, and 2:40 for your comments as well. Chris..I sincerely look forward to checking out the proposals. Definitely a leap in the right direction. As this debate rages on, year after year, I notice that people like to hide behind the "he's being elitist"....."he thinks he's better than me because he doesn't floss", cry. I certainly can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for myself when I assure you that I don't believe this to be an elitist movement. Like I said, I flossed...for sockeye. This was before it became commonplace for people to use the technique on springs. And it was fun for a while, until I realized the larger impact the practice was having on fishing as a whole. Some of my best fishing friends(many of whom are very good rods), still floss...and they're still my very close friends...though we debate this all the time(and many of them are now stopping at least for springs:)..). Like I said in my first and only post so far, I hate the idea of coming on here to perpetuate an argument, and most points that needed to be made have been. I have some valid suggestions though:

Let's not hide, and use the defense of "calling the other side elitist" as a shield. Let's look at our angling practices, and the way they impact the sport with an open mind, regardless of what we enjoy doing.

Let's acknowledge the fact that there is a proverbial "loophole" in the regs, that is allowing many anglers to practice flossing....and merely shoving our heads in the sand and refusing to stop until DFO forces us to, is not forward thinking at all. It is OUR responsibility to do it or not do it, and we shouldn't need to have someone else tell us whether it's right or wrong.

Acknowledge the fact that flossing is by all terms and definition "snagging"(which is illegal)! One in the same. Put aside whether or not it's ok to "snag" your two sox, at the height of the run purely for harvest purposes. Is it ok in your book of angling to snag springs, coho, chums, rainbow trout or cuttthroat? If so then I suggest that you did miss something along the way and you SHOULD, rethink your angling practices.

Bottom bouncing has also become a great term to hide behind. Flossing(snagging), and BB'ing have somehow become synonomous. They are however 2 different things. BB'ing is a perfectly legal, and traditional method of presenting your bait without a float and is one of the most common methods used on rivers south of the border for Steelhead and Salmon. They refer to it as "drift-fishing". It will always have a place on both Cdn, and US rivers.... but I assure you the leader length is nearly always under 24in, and the method is used to entice a strike.

Flossing is snagging plain and simple. If you think that flossing is an "art" you are sadly mistaken. Sure there are guys that have developed tricks, use fireline, taken leaders to exorbitant lengths...in an effort to refine the technique of flossing but it's still snagging....and I hate to break it to you it's got to be the easiest way in the world to hook fish. In fact I've taught 6 year olds the technique and had them master it, in minutes.lol. Sorry guys it's not an art but a method to enjoy the sockeye harvest. So if we're going to hit the Fraser for springs and plan on "flossing", let's refer to it by it's rightful name instead of insisting that we are bb'ing....artfully.

The only way things can or will change, is if people maintain an open mind. They have to be willing to alter techniques and or practices for the better of the sport or the sport itself is in serious trouble. In the meantime all that can be done, is those that are willing must put in the time and direct their efforts through the proper channels to make a difference. I sincerely thank those that are!!

Cheers,

Arnie

PS: Just saw Troutbreath's post as I prepare to post this. Ouch!!!! Wish more effort could be focused on solving this issue.

[DionJL]

From todays Vancouver Sun

A native leader said the three bands are convinced the early Stuart run isn't threatened by the planned fishery.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion. That however does not mean every opinion is valid.

How many of these first nations have Marine Biology degrees and have studied the pacific salmon?? My guess would be zero, yet somehow they still think they know more than the experts.

Ignorance is Bliss

[2:40]

The end result will be a lot more business for the natives from those who have acquired sockeye taste and yet barred from catching the fish by themselves. The sins of all those additionally poached sockeyes will be upon those who have their hands in encouraging such happening directly or indirectly.

Give me a break. Where does taking responsibility for one's actions and choices come into play here? Weak arguement IMO. 


Arnie, another great post. 

DionJL, I thought the same thing to myself when I read that in the paper. While I respect that things have evolved from birchbark canoes and spears, I wasnt aware that their dryracks now come with DNA testing ability. 

[Nicole]

What are people going to do when they see $10 dollar sockeye for sale? Buy them.

People are looking for deals, and couldn't care less that they're buying an endangered fish from the back door salesmen... This practice has been going on since civilaization in BC began, and it will continue. Like illegal drugs, there will always be a flow as there are always eager customers.

So the best we can do is try and educate the public about what kind of sockeye are bought at different times of the year, and somehow create a stigma for those buying the Stuarts.

I'm not sure how to handle it any other way, DFO has had some clashes with Cheam, and is no longer going on site after a very serious altercation.

Maybe angry fishermen can do their own blockage, and block all the roads leading on and off the fishing grounds, so the fish can't be sold. Sounds pretty extreme, but I don't know what else to do.


Nicole

[Geff_t]

Maybe angry fishermen can do their own blockage, and block all the roads leading on and off the fishing grounds, so the fish can't be sold. Sounds pretty extreme, but I don't know what else to do.


Nicole

That is pretty extreme. We would end up with the same result as what happened in Ontario. The non-native would get arresested. Also I am sure they would be armed as it seems perfectly legal for them to carry rifles.

Oh look at the time. Time to hit the lake with the kids. Tight lines all.

PS. there will be no flossing at the lake just pure fun with my kids and the dog.

[nosey]

Gol darn natives thinking that just cuz nobodies arresting them or charging them with anything makes what they are doing legal and ethical I wonder where they would get an idea like that. We should remember here that until recently the natives were only allotted 5% of the Fraser River fish catch while the commercials took 90% and while I don't deny that recent changes to this have put the natives in a position where they can have adverse affects on the runs it is the gross mismanagement of the commercial fisheries that put the runs in danger in the first place meanwhile the commercials fly beneath the radar and let the two minority players in the fishing industry fight it out with each other. Remember there's one white guy that used to be car salesman in BC that has the "right" to more of the Fraser River sockeye than ther government just gave to all of the Musqueum band. It was just mentioned that the natives have been selling fish to the white men since the white man came to BC, if I were native I might consider that some sort of precedent. Don't want to be too controversial here but there's more than one side to every story.

[nosey]

Just thought I'd mention this, that it's not natives buying the fish it's legitimate businesses, cafes, restaurants, commercial packing houses, grocery stores if you shut down the markets you will shut down the illegal fishery. If you can fine somebody $50,000 for poaching an elk why can't you put a minimum fine of, say $10,000  for buying an illegally caught sockeye that would make any business think twice before they bought and it would be impossible for your average merchant to prove he had an constitutional right to buy that fish. Without the drug addicts nobody could make a living being a drug dealer.

[chris gadsden]

On one part of the Fraser River today I was given a report that 14 anglers were BB,ing and 11 of them took home a chinook. No numbers were given of number of sockeye taken by this group but was told 2 Early Stuarts were taken in the Whonnock test fishing boat.

Will have to check the test fishery results at Cottonwood as well.

 I also was told illegal drift netting was also going on with FOC called and dealt with two incidents.

As well I was informed FOC was out in force checking all fishers.

While I was out checking the river early this morning I saw Agassiz Search and Rescue and they had just recovered a person who had fallen off the Hope Bridge this morning. Person was found near Ruby Creek.

[Mike D.]

On one part of the Fraser River today I was given a report that 14 anglers were BB,ing and 11 of them took home a chinook. No numbers were given of number of sockeye taken by this group but was told 2 Early Stuarts were taken in the Whonnock test fishing boat.

Will have to check the test fishery results at Cottonwood as well.

 I also was told illegal drift netting was also going on with FOC called and dealt with two incidents.

As well I was informed FOC was out in force checking all fishers.

While I was out checking the river early this morning I saw Agassiz Search and Rescue and they had just recovered a person who had fallen off the Hope Bridge this morning. Person was found near Ruby Creek.

Yes the flossing boys took a truck load home today...(so I've heard) lots of boats out today from what I could hear from the house......

Ruby Cr. From Hope! holy cow, was the guy still alive? I think not....

Mike <"))))><

[chris gadsden]

On one part of the Fraser River today I was given a report that 14 anglers were BB,ing and 11 of them took home a chinook. No numbers were given of number of sockeye taken by this group but was told 2 Early Stuarts were taken in the Whonnock test fishing boat.

Will have to check the test fishery results at Cottonwood as well.

 I also was told illegal drift netting was also going on with FOC called and dealt with two incidents.

As well I was informed FOC was out in force checking all fishers.

While I was out checking the river early this morning I saw Agassiz Search and Rescue and they had just recovered a person who had fallen off the Hope Bridge this morning. Person was found near Ruby Creek.

Yes the flossing boys took a truck load home today...(so I've heard) lots of boats out today from what I could hear from the house......

Ruby Cr. From Hope! holy cow, was the guy still alive? I think not....

Mike <"))))><

Thanks for verifying the report I was given. Too bad that a good number of people are not heeding FOC request.   :-[Not good news.

You are correct unfortunately, the fellow did not survive.

[bbronswyk2000]

This is my 4th year reading about the flossing debates on these fishing forums. Sure doesnt change much. Everything on these forums falls on deaf ears so whats the point of debating it. I am no longer getting involved in these debates. If you strongly disagree try to do something about it. Nobody can do anything by writing on a forum. The time and energy it takes to debate this issue could be better served by writing where it can possibly make a difference. People that floss are going to floss, people that dont wont. Its not like we are preaching to 10 year old kids where you can change their minds because they are easily influenced. You are speaking to adults whose minds are already made up.