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[Rodney]

[2:40]

And Ive never disputed that for a second Rick. Check my posts and the letter's Ive written in regards to FN overfishing.

But this ISNT about how many fish are being taken. Sure, this is changing with concerns about the Chinook and low sockeye returns combined with DFO's requests. The root of the issue with this snagging is still what it's doing to Sport Angling. Anyone can see the problems. Check out the Keith Wilson Bridge starting in October right through steelhead season. Look at the garbage and abuse to the resource. Is THIS what we want for angling? Is THIS worth all the 'benefits' like to fish mentioned should they be such or not? Now I realize that when I talk about this snagging Im talking about the worst of the bunch. While this 'worst' is a very high %, these individuals are not on this site or at least are not engaged in the issue. Most of the guys in support of the snagging on here are happy to get their fish, clean up their mess and go home. While I think they are part of the problem and not the solution, I do acknowledge the right things done as it's only fair to do so.

I support DFO's and angler's efforts in regards to this issue because in the end it wont really matter if there are fish to catch or not if we're going to have a free-for-all.

p.s. once again, no offence at my use of 'snagging'. I realize it offends some, but the use of 'bottom bouncing' rubs me the wrong way too as I think it's inaccurate and tarnishes a legit angling method!

[Big Steel]

And Ive never disputed that for a second Rick. Check my posts and the letter's Ive written in regards to FN overfishing.

But this ISNT about how many fish are being taken. Sure, this is changing with concerns about the Chinook and low sockeye returns combined with DFO's requests. The root of the issue with this snagging is still what it's doing to Sport Angling. Anyone can see the problems. Check out the Keith Wilson Bridge starting in October right through steelhead season. Look at the garbage and abuse to the resource. Is THIS what we want for angling? Is THIS worth all the 'benefits' like to fish mentioned should they be such or not? Now I realize that when I talk about this snagging Im talking about the worst of the bunch. While this 'worst' is a very high %, these individuals are not on this site or at least are not engaged in the issue. Most of the guys in support of the snagging on here are happy to get their fish, clean up their mess and go home. While I think they are part of the problem and not the solution, I do acknowledge the right things done as it's only fair to do so.

I support DFO's and angler's efforts in regards to this issue because in the end it wont really matter if there are fish to catch or not if we're going to have a free-for-all.

p.s. once again, no offence at my use of 'snagging'. I realize it offends some, but the use of 'bottom bouncing' rubs me the wrong way too as I think it's inaccurate and tarnishes a legit angling method!

Gord, I have been sitting here watching all of this.  It has become apparent to me over the course of this thread that you would much rather worry about a fishing techinque than worry about the declining fish stocks.  I really hope this is wrong, but... look at the bright side, by the time you get everyone to fish the way you think they should, there will be no fish to fish for because your little group was busy trying to shut down flossing and not the netting.     SO good job on that.

Rick, I`d like to see you post some evidence to your accusations that First Nations nets are causing the real problems. I believe the B.C., international commercial and poaching fishing fleets salmon harvest numbers are exponentially higher than the First Nations wimpy numbers. The First Nations are just easily visable to everybody so they are an easy target.

Habit degradation and destruction due to logging, mining, industrialization, urbanization, pollution, hydro electric generation, all play major roles in the decline of salmon stocks as well.

I get frustrated and envious with First Nation privilege's in this country but I also see that I have to be realistic in not solely laying the blame on them for this problem. Show me the evidence and I will agree that First Nations are the ones to blame, until then it`s still the commercial fleet and all the other things I mentioned that are the salmons worst nightmare. The least of the salmons problems in my books are recreational fishers and First Nations, perhaps they are the salmons best allies.

Cheers

Nuggy

Nuggy there was a post up here somewhere that had all the count numbers for the last 4 years.  I can't remember where it is, so if someone could help with that.  You may be real surprised with the numbers.  Keep in mind as well, the some "books" on number by some groups are not always truthfull.  Your proof is in here and it was plain to see what the trend was.  The natives are holding there own.

[Big Steel]

Fraser river Sockeye harvest figures from 200-2004. From the PSC website.



2004 total catch:  2,259,700 sockeye caught
                          1,326,400 commercial     59% of total catch
                             615,200 first nations    27% of total catch
                               52,000 recreational      2% of total catch

2003 total catch: 1,889,000 sockeye caught
                         1,043,000 commercial         55% of total catch
                            781,000 first nations        41% of total catch
                              65,000 recreational          3% of total catch

2002 total catch: 3,617,000 sockeye caught
                         2,218,000  commercial   61% of total catch
                         1,155,000 First nations  32% of total catch
                            126,000 recreational    3% of total catch

2001 total catch: 1,197,000 sockeye caught
                            297,000 commercial     25% of total catch
                            848,000 first nations    71% of total catch
                               34,000 recreational     3% of total catch

2000 total catch: 1,872,000 sockeye caught
                            955,000 commercial         51% of total catch
                            848,000 first nations        47% of total catch
                               24,000 recreational         1% of total catch 

[Geff_t]

Gord, I have been sitting here watching all of this.  It has become apparent to me over the course of this thread that you would much rather worry about a fishing techinque than worry about the declining fish stocks.  I really hope this is wrong, but... look at the bright side, by the time you get everyone to fish the way you think they should, there will be no fish to fish for because your little group was busy trying to shut down flossing and not the netting.     SO good job on that.

Hey Dave I was thinking the exact same thing. It seems he is only interested in one thing and that has nothing to do with the fish

[johnny]

Fraser river Sockeye harvest figures from 200-2004. From the PSC website.



2004 total catch:  2,259,700 sockeye caught
                          1,326,400 commercial     59% of total catch
                             615,200 first nations    27% of total catch
                               52,000 recreational      2% of total catch

2003 total catch: 1,889,000 sockeye caught
                         1,043,000 commercial         55% of total catch
                            781,000 first nations        41% of total catch
                              65,000 recreational          3% of total catch

2002 total catch: 3,617,000 sockeye caught
                         2,218,000  commercial   61% of total catch
                         1,155,000 First nations  32% of total catch
                            126,000 recreational    3% of total catch

2001 total catch: 1,197,000 sockeye caught
                            297,000 commercial     25% of total catch
                            848,000 first nations    71% of total catch
                               34,000 recreational     3% of total catch

2000 total catch: 1,872,000 sockeye caught
                            955,000 commercial         51% of total catch
                            848,000 first nations        47% of total catch
                               24,000 recreational         1% of total catch 

Well doesn't that about sum it up...

 

[2:40]

And Ive never disputed that for a second Rick. Check my posts and the letter's Ive written in regards to FN overfishing.

And Im starting to think some of your reading abilities are certainly more selective than your bottom snagging ability!!  (see above) 

Not to nit-pick, what have the guys who question my priorities done in regards to this themselves?

Ill say it one last time. If we're going to have a total gong snagging show, is saving angling opportunities  going to be worth it? Ill fight to the end regardless (to conserve the fish) but at the end of the day, we need to have something to come home to. I sure hope it isnt the snagging meat festival we currently have and that's why Im also devoted to preserving at least some aspect of angling.

[Big Steel]

Just stating a view of what I have noticed Gord.  No reason to start flingin.....

And what have I done?  Everything I have the time and resources to do.  Including educating people on how to effectively "bottom snag" so they can spend more time cleaning up after others or going home when their "snaggery" is done for the day.   Along with other things.....

[TrophyHunter]

I think Gord; what everyone is trying to get across is that no matter how many people BB , it is the nets that are causing the real problem... you shut down the river to BB and you will still have the same problems !! I believe that even without flossers , until you get those nets out of the river you are always going to have declining numbers !!! I honestly believe that banning one way of fishing is just a way for DFO to show that they are trying to do something, paint rotten wood and it will look pretty for a couple of weeks... but in the end you still have rot!!
TH

Rick, I`d like to see you post some evidence to your accusations that First Nations nets are causing the real problems. I believe the B.C., international commercial and poaching fishing fleets salmon harvest numbers are exponentially higher than the First Nations wimpy numbers. The First Nations are just easily visable to everybody so they are an easy target.

Cheers

Nuggy

Can you please point out where I ever said that it was only the First Nations nets that are the problem !!! All nets cause the problem
before you write something that accusing , read the post first !!
TH

[Nuggy]

Fraser river Sockeye harvest figures from 200-2004. From the PSC website.



2004 total catch:  2,259,700 sockeye caught
                          1,326,400 commercial     59% of total catch
                             615,200 first nations    27% of total catch
                               52,000 recreational      2% of total catch

2003 total catch: 1,889,000 sockeye caught
                         1,043,000 commercial         55% of total catch
                            781,000 first nations        41% of total catch
                              65,000 recreational          3% of total catch

2002 total catch: 3,617,000 sockeye caught
                         2,218,000  commercial   61% of total catch
                         1,155,000 First nations  32% of total catch
                            126,000 recreational    3% of total catch

2001 total catch: 1,197,000 sockeye caught
                            297,000 commercial     25% of total catch
                            848,000 first nations    71% of total catch
                               34,000 recreational     3% of total catch

2000 total catch: 1,872,000 sockeye caught
                            955,000 commercial         51% of total catch
                            848,000 first nations        47% of total catch
                               24,000 recreational         1% of total catch 

Dave, are these figures strictly for Fraser River and Tributary salmon catches? If so where are the numbers from the salt chuck?

The Salt Chuck is where the vast majority of salmon harvest takes place and Fraser River fish are caught by commercial fleets in Washington State, British Columbia, Alaska and maybe even Russia and Oregon for all I know. And don`t forget the boats that lay out those nets in the ocean that are a mile long and slaughter everything in there path.

According to DFO stats above all user groups in the Fraser River and tributaries are having an impact on the resource. In this five year chart the commercial fleet took 1,330, 200 more fish than First Nations. On an yearly basis the commercial fleet in the Fraser River takes an extra 266,040 more than the First Nation totals. In one year the extra 266,000 sockeye that the commercial fleet catches above First Nations totals is equal to almost 5 years of the recreational harvest number combined.

Again this proves my point that the commercial harvest is greater than First Nations, and this is only in the Fraser River. Bring on the ocean harvest numbers and let`s se who`s really harvesting the majority of salmon.

We all have an impact on the resource, the blame game is getting crusty. Get out and do something if you are so concerned.

Cheers

Nuggy

[Nuggy]

I think Gord; what everyone is trying to get across is that no matter how many people BB , it is the nets that are causing the real problem... you shut down the river to BB and you will still have the same problems !! I believe that even without flossers , until you get those nets out of the river you are always going to have declining numbers !!! I honestly believe that banning one way of fishing is just a way for DFO to show that they are trying to do something, paint rotten wood and it will look pretty for a couple of weeks... but in the end you still have rot!!
TH

Rick, I`d like to see you post some evidence to your accusations that First Nations nets are causing the real problems. I believe the B.C., international commercial and poaching fishing fleets salmon harvest numbers are exponentially higher than the First Nations wimpy numbers. The First Nations are just easily visable to everybody so they are an easy target.

Cheers

Nuggy

Can you please point out where I ever said that it was only the First Nations nets that are the problem !!! All nets cause the problem
before you write something that accusing , read the post first !!
TH

Ummm, how about the first sentence where you  say

it is the nets that are causing the real problem... you shut down the river to BB and you will still have the same problems !! 

[TrophyHunter]

I think Gord; what everyone is trying to get across is that no matter how many people BB , it is the nets that are causing the real problem... you shut down the river to BB and you will still have the same problems !! I believe that even without flossers , until you get those nets out of the river you are always going to have declining numbers !!! I honestly believe that banning one way of fishing is just a way for DFO to show that they are trying to do something, paint rotten wood and it will look pretty for a couple of weeks... but in the end you still have rot!!
TH

Rick, I`d like to see you post some evidence to your accusations that First Nations nets are causing the real problems. I believe the B.C., international commercial and poaching fishing fleets salmon harvest numbers are exponentially higher than the First Nations wimpy numbers. The First Nations are just easily visable to everybody so they are an easy target.

Cheers

Nuggy

Can you please point out where I ever said that it was only the First Nations nets that are the problem !!! All nets cause the problem
before you write something that accusing , read the post first !!
TH

Ummm, how about the first sentence where you  say

it is the nets that are causing the real problem... you shut down the river to BB and you will still have the same problems !! 

Ummm how about I nevered mentioned First Nations  in that sentence !!! when you figure out what is going on let me know... seriously what are you talking about re read the sentence and tell me where I specified any race

[Steelhawk]

I second Rick. There is no mentioning of whose nets they belong. He only thinks nets are the problem because the stats show that the two net-based groups are taking an average of 98% of the fish. Ouch! Why are we bonking each other non-stop for our meager 2% when it is split among tens of thousands of hard working recreational fishermen? By the way, I have no problem pointing the finger at the natives. The official record shows that they are holding their own with the commies. What about the unofficial record? Rod & Chris had done a report on the native fleet operating at Lower Fraser area. They found that there was hardly any monitoring or recording of catches. Many of us also have seen nets all over the river when there were no openings. Chris once reported that he counted hundreds (700-800?) of nets all the way to Boston Bar when he made a helicopter trip to survey the native nets. These catches were never counted or monitored. I am not opposed to their claim of needing fish for traditional purpose. But we cannot be blind to the greed factor by all the illegal sales of fish. The real threat to fish stock is that this group tends to defy DFO on closures, like they are doing now on the Stuarts. DFO must need such a large user group to behave reasonably in adhering to closures. Without that, there is no guarantee that a sensitive stock can be vastly overfished to the point of being wiped out. 

Some great points from Liketofish. I second Rick. His logics is so plain and true. To counter his logics really reflect a person's shortness of vision. If you care about fish stocks, think again.

Now be kind to your fellow fishermen. They and their 2% are not the group to hammer on when preserving fish stock is your goal.

[All Tangled Up]

Rodney, were those your fish? What's the point of the pictures?

[hotrod]

I think Gord; what everyone is trying to get across is that no matter how many people BB , it is the nets that are causing the real problem... you shut down the river to BB and you will still have the same problems !! I believe that even without flossers , until you get those nets out of the river you are always going to have declining numbers !!! I honestly believe that banning one way of fishing is just a way for DFO to show that they are trying to do something, paint rotten wood and it will look pretty for a couple of weeks... but in the end you still have rot!!
TH

Rick, I`d like to see you post some evidence to your accusations that First Nations nets are causing the real problems. I believe the B.C., international commercial and poaching fishing fleets salmon harvest numbers are exponentially higher than the First Nations wimpy numbers. The First Nations are just easily visable to everybody so they are an easy target.

Habit degradation and destruction due to logging, mining, industrialization, urbanization, pollution, hydro electric generation, all play major roles in the decline of salmon stocks as well.

I get frustrated and envious with First Nation privilege's in this country but I also see that I have to be realistic in not solely laying the blame on them for this problem. Show me the evidence and I will agree that First Nations are the ones to blame, until then it`s still the commercial fleet and all the other things I mentioned that are the salmons worst nightmare. The least of the salmons problems in my books are recreational fishers and First Nations, perhaps they are the salmons best allies.

Cheers

Nuggy

 A very good point and I agree 100%.It's what you don;t see that is the major problem. I saw the poaching last year on the fraser.


          Hotrod