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[fishyfish]

Look on the bright side Rodney your pike minnow population is multiplying by the thousands! You would rather fish for them than sockeye anyway. So cheer up put a worm on a hook and hit steveston. There should be a few bullheads left.

[Steelhawk]

SSab nik, care to take on an apprentice? Bass is my next challenge to stay away from all the controversy on Salmon. Not been fishing for weeks to avoid the socs, so it is time to try a new adventure with bass. 

[newsman]

I'm not buying any of this political crap. Dying at sea are they? I wonder if has anything to do with the social disease of the fish farm industry SEA LICE? I would like to see what would happen to all our fish stocks if the fish farms were shut down for 10 years. You can do all the work you want to habitat, close all the fisheries you want, stop develoment, logging, and mining; and still come up with squat if the smolts don't make it past the net pens. Do your homework read the facts on what the fish farm industy has done to the fisheries in every country where they set up shop; then start pointing fingers.

[adriaticum]

If the salmon farming industry were shut down all wild salmon would dissapear withing 4-5 years.
Our appetite for salmon would not decrease but the supply of fish would so we would resort to exterminating wild ones.
Those who think that fish farms are a bad thing are sorely mistaken.
I would agree, however, that a different way of farming has to be found to eliminate any danger to wild species.

[dennisK]

Our appetite for salmon would not decrease but the supply of fish would so we would resort to exterminating wild ones.

"Our"?

Perhaps you should speak for yourself - some people change habits. I don't eat as much meat as my father, for example.

But he was a typical stubborn Eastern European who you can't tell anything to.

Times change.

[adriaticum]

Our appetite for salmon would not decrease but the supply of fish would so we would resort to exterminating wild ones.

"Our"?

Perhaps you should speak for yourself - some people change habits. I don't eat as much meat as my father, for example.

But he was a typical stubborn Eastern European who you can't tell anything to.

Times change.

Sure a few people change their eating habits, and I am one of them, I eat less meat than my father too, but what's your point?
Are you saying that salmon consumption is decreasing?

[Rodney]

If the salmon farming industry were shut down all wild salmon would dissapear withing 4-5 years.

There is a misperception that farmed salmon are produced to preserve salmon in the wild as an alternative food source. The problem is that overharvesting is only one of many factors that causes a reduction of fish in the wild. Reduction of food for fish in the wild plays an equal, if not larger, role in this decline. This decline of food in the wild is largely contributed by the demand of fish farming industry.

Farming predatory fish species is not a sound solution to the shortage of seafood. If anything, it excels the decline as we cut the growing time of farmed fish in half, which takes out much more primary production in the wild in the same period of time than what higher trophic levels in the wild would consume.

[Nicole]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/08/15/bc-sockeyeclosure.html

Sockeye closure considered for southern B.C.
Some salmon runs are less than 5% of what was forecast
Last Updated: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 | 3:10 PM PT

The Department of Fisheries and Oceans is considering a total ban on the sockeye salmon fishery in southern British Columbia after fewer salmon are returning to the area than was forecast.

Even the aboriginal ceremonial fishery will be cancelled this year, said Timber Whitehorse, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans spokesperson for the Fraser River Salmon Stock Assessment in Kamloops.

"[The] pre-season forecast was just over 1½ million, and the in-season adjustment is half a million, so just over one-third of the pre-season forecast," Whitehorse said Wednesday.

Fisheries experts suspect two-thirds of the salmon died in the ocean, but why that happened is not clear.

What is clear is that very few fish are returning to the rivers to spawn this summer, said Pat Matthews, spokesperson for the Secwepemc Fisheries Commission.

"Those stocks in the North Thompson and the Shuswap are less than five per cent of what was forecast," said Matthews.

First Nations are supporting a ban on commercial and ceremonial fishing.

"However, we are hoping the Department of Fisheries and Oceans will provide a limited access for food purposes," said Matthews.

Matthews said many native people depend on the fishery for food, so they're asking officials to allow the fishing of 5,000 salmon this year from the Adams River.

The Fraser River is already closed to all commercial fishing. Recreational and native food fishing for sockeye on the Lower Fraser is also closed.

[dennisK]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/08/15/bc-sockeyeclosure.html

Sockeye closure considered for southern B.C.
Some salmon runs are less than 5% of what was forecast
Last Updated: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 | 3:10 PM PT

Cool, so there's a 5% chance there will be an opening.

[adriaticum]

There is a misperception that farmed salmon are produced to preserve salmon in the wild as an alternative food source. The problem is that overharvesting is only one of many factors that causes a reduction of fish in the wild. Reduction of food for fish in the wild plays an equal, if not larger, role in this decline. This decline of food in the wild is largely contributed by the demand of fish farming industry.

Farming predatory fish species is not a sound solution to the shortage of seafood. If anything, it excels the decline as we cut the growing time of farmed fish in half, which takes out much more primary production in the wild in the same period of time than what higher trophic levels in the wild would consume.

Rodney, there is no way that stopping fish farming would not harm wild stocks.
You yourself say that overharvesting is the problem and thats exactly right.
If there is a world demand for 1000 fish a year and there is 800 wild fish allowed to be harvested, where do the other 200 come from?
People that overharvest fish don't throw the fish to the cats. They overharvest them because there is a demand for it.
If the demand wasn't supplemented by farmed fish there would be an even greater pressure on the wild ones.
It's just a matter of risk. In some areas there are no regulations and they can massacre them at will. I think that we are not yet globalized in resource thinking and consumption.
Those people in Alaska we saw an article about are allowed to harvest much more fish then we are because it seems to them that their stocks are ok where in fact its the same fish that comes here. Just because in one particular area they see greater density of sockeye it doesn't mean that the fish is doing ok. I don't know enough about salmon migration but it seems that they all congregate in the north pacific area.
Sockeye have to pass by Alaska regardless of whether their natal streams are in the Fraser basin or Columbia river or Queen Charlotte rivers.

To me this is a simple matter of finding better ways to farm salmon. Without any negative impact on the wild stocks.
The problem right now is that people seem content with the way things are in the farming industry.
All I can say to those who claim to care about salmon is to stop fishing it.

[dennisK]

There is a misperception that farmed salmon are produced to preserve salmon in the wild as an alternative food source. The problem is that overharvesting is only one of many factors that causes a reduction of fish in the wild. Reduction of food for fish in the wild plays an equal, if not larger, role in this decline. This decline of food in the wild is largely contributed by the demand of fish farming industry.

Farming predatory fish species is not a sound solution to the shortage of seafood. If anything, it excels the decline as we cut the growing time of farmed fish in half, which takes out much more primary production in the wild in the same period of time than what higher trophic levels in the wild would consume.

Rodney, there is no way that stopping fish farming would not harm wild stocks.

Ever heard of sea lice? Fish farms ARE harming wild stocks.

Parasitic sea lice killing BC’s wild salmon

http://www.ubyssey.bc.ca/2006/10/31/parasitic-sea-lice-killing-bc%E2%80%99s-wild-salmon/

A team of scientists have discovered that parasitic sea lice escaping from salmon farms along BC’s coast are infecting and killing the wild salmon that swim by the farms placed on the salmon’s natural migration routes.

[Xgolfman]

There is a misperception that farmed salmon are produced to preserve salmon in the wild as an alternative food source. The problem is that overharvesting is only one of many factors that causes a reduction of fish in the wild. Reduction of food for fish in the wild plays an equal, if not larger, role in this decline. This decline of food in the wild is largely contributed by the demand of fish farming industry.

Farming predatory fish species is not a sound solution to the shortage of seafood. If anything, it excels the decline as we cut the growing time of farmed fish in half, which takes out much more primary production in the wild in the same period of time than what higher trophic levels in the wild would consume.

Rodney, there is no way that stopping fish farming would not harm wild stocks.

Ever heard of sea lice? Fish farms ARE harming wild stocks.

Parasitic sea lice killing BC’s wild salmon

http://www.ubyssey.bc.ca/2006/10/31/parasitic-sea-lice-killing-bc%E2%80%99s-wild-salmon/

A team of scientists have discovered that parasitic sea lice escaping from salmon farms along BC’s coast are infecting and killing the wild salmon that swim by the farms placed on the salmon’s natural migration routes.

AMEN...

[itosh]

SUPPLY = DEMAND

SUPPLY = FF + WF
where FF = Farmed Fish
          WF= Wild Fish

Therefore:

 FF + WF = DEMAND

There is a cost associated with FF that we will call FC that takes away from WF (WF-FC).
There is a benefit associated with any reduction in FF that we will call FB that can be added to the supply equation (FF + FB).
So we come up with:

(FF + FB) + (WF - FC) = SUPPLY

Assuming all else equal, if FF=0 then we can see that FB + WF - FC = SUPPLY

If there are no fish farms, then the only way we can tell if supply of wild fish will go up is if FB > FC which is in IMHO inconclusive due to the fact that time is not factored in.  Time in the sense of past, present and future.  IF the cost of fish farms in the past and present are far greater than any future benefit of no fish farms, then wild fish will probably continue to decline.

So it may not be incorrect to say that eliminating fish farms will hurt wild stock.  I think. 

[adriaticum]

Guys, I know about sea lice and the Alexandra Morton story and I agree that sea lice are a major factor that's killing wild stocks.
That's why we have to find a better way to farm salmon.
Broughton's case was a criminal act by the farming industry and government for which they were never penalized. They coaxed people into telling them where salmon are and they promised not to put farms there. And then they put farms right there.

Itosh, I like your calculation but the only evidence that FB > FC you need is the fact that farming is still going on.
If the costs were higher than the benefits, the industry wouldn't exist.
Of course, we can't quantify the damage on the wild stocks and that's the problem.

I agree on all these points, but my main point is that if the there were no farmed salmon to fill the demand, that demand would be filled by wild salmon, which would be an even harder whack on the wild stocks.
Norway is a monster producer of salmon. A lot of Europeans are eating cheap salmon. If farming stopped, there would be more poaching and poachers would take greater risks to catch more illegal salmon to make money.

I think a major effort should be put into finding a different way to farm salmon.
Or reduce consumption.
And hopefully before all the wild stocks are gone.

[Nicole]

Closed containment seems to be the answer, I hope for some sort of expedience on behalf of government in the matter...

Cheers,
Nicole