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[Nicole]

RE: the letter, no encouragement should be made to net chum for either commercials or FNs, as the bycatch is Thompson steelhead...


Nicole

[nosey]

The incident of people killing sockeye was not witnessed by me but it was reported within twenty minutes to a DFO boat in the area. No action was taken, it happened adjacent to the Katz reserve downstream from the pipeline crossing two days before the river was closed. There were a large group of Oriental fishermen had one section of bar tied up and were killing every fish they caught and giving them to their wives to hide in the bush, a friend of mine observed this from a boat and when going back up river pulled over the DFO boat and reported it to them. The officers told them that seeing as they did not witness it personally and could not go up into the reserve to search for the fish or prove who hid them there, there was nothing they could do about it.
    In the incident of the person standing on the fish to unhook it was a female fisherperson and she was confronted by another fisherman he was flat out told to f off with her boyfriend standing behind her, as for people kicking fish back into the river you might as well be whistling into the wind as try to tell people how to release their catch.
   I have no idea where you people that are defending this bottom bouncing as a ethical method of fishing go to fish but you should come up here during the week when the real meat hounds are out it would change a lot of peoples perspectives on the whole fishery. When the FN's stated that they had absolute proof that sports anglers were killing sockeye there is no question in my mind that they were telling the truth, not all the fishermen out there share the same ethical standards as the the ones on this forum like to believe they do.
   As for Bill Otway, the last time I saw him on TV he was standing there with his bottom bouncing outfit holding up a sockeye that he had killed during a closed season, to some people that made him a hero to others it just made him look like another poaching snagger.

[Gooey]

Any group has loser/user in it...whether its sports poachers of Cheam and Stoh lo who fish regardless of stock numbers...there are always those who just don't give a rats ***.  I think that they are in the minority though for both FNs and Sports Fishers.  based on what I have been seeing here and in the news, many FN tribes are bowing out of this summers sockeye run.  Like I said I think most people care and are responsible with the resource. 

I don't know about you but I have chased people outta a run that were snagging fish and keeping them.  There used to be the SOB who would floss and snag the ranger run.  He use so much line he cast by swinging his gear in a circle above his head. When he hooked a fish he would wade in and take the hook out before "beaching" the fish or quickly throw it behind some rocks.  Even on the far side of the ranger, we verbally harrassed him enough that he left the hole.  I never let a sole get away with any B*** S*** like that on the river.  I don't know about the situation you were in and I would never put myself in any danger but I think for the most part, the sporties self regulate.

That said, I do think a season or two with no sock fishing would be a good way to thin out some of these meet heads though.

[johnny]

Being a law school dropout (did 1 year at McGill) I'm curious what the legal standard for "intent" would be if a bottom bouncer was fishing on the fraser in the closed areas.  I would think simply saying that you were targeting non-salmon species, the burden of proof would reside on the DFO to prove their case. And unless you had a salmon in your possession, the court would throw the fine out. I don't think the DFO officer could say "everybody who bottom bounces MUST be fishing for salmon" and the court would blindly accept that as enough.

Interesting stuff anyways...

True, can you imagine the look on the officer's face when the guy blurts out that he's fishing for cutts...

LOL
Nicole

All you need is your steelhead tag... although one ought bar fish instead of bounce obviously. There is nothing they can do about it though.

[BwiBwi]

Intent is something hard to proof.
As for claim from FN, that sporties are killing socs, likewise, last year, this year, sporties has proofs FN were poaching.

It really doesn't matter what sporties do, FN (Sto:lo and Cheam) will find an excuse to get everyone off river, except for themselves.

[Steelhawk]

I have never witnessed sockeyes being killed this season. In fact any time a small fish is about to land, every one was observing keenly and checking if it was a sockeye.Some even helped newbies to properly release the fish. There are always the bad sheeps in any fishing style from any ethnic groups. Once I witnessed outrageious snagging of Cap coho by a Caucasion man right from the Woodcroft bridge. He did not even use any wool and dragged up every bellied hooked coho up to the bridge, how brutal.  Called DFO and was told they would not be able to send enough CO to hide in the bush to catch these snaggers. LOL. Also reported to Big Qualicum hatchery about people snagging springs by the belly, one of them snaggers was a blonde guy, go figure, what ethnic background is exempt from doing this snagging of fish? To blame this to BBers, particularly Asian BBers is uncalled for. There are many coho fouled hooked by float fishing and kept by non-Asians. There is no need to pin-point to any method and any ethnic background. 

[nosey]

    Ethnic steriotyping doesn't seem to be a problem on this forum, in this case those are the people that were doing it and that was the method that was being used, my point was that NOTHING was done this year by the sport fishery to minimize or eliminate the impact sports fishermen were having on the sockeye, if anything there were more people out there having a go at the sockeye than ever before during a spring only opening. I am an avid pink fly fisherman and am also depressed about the river being closed but until something is done to address the abuse of non targeted stocks to reopen the river would just be a travesty. To say that the sporties will use other methods to catch the pinks is a lie, if the river were too be opened tomorrow the bars would be covered with bottom bouncers again in no time right along with the other fishermen, there are a lot of people out there that know absolutely no other method with which to fish. As for the sockeye already being through the system the although it is not a peak year for the Adams River run the ones that do come keep coming right through September till early October.

[Gooey]

Everyone knows the mob mentality...well unfortunately thats kind of the problem with the fraser floss fishery.  If one guy does it that one person then makes it OK for a bunch more and then the problem just snow balls. 

One issue I think that needs to be address is guides taking clients out flossing.  I saw several guide boats at one bar imparticular this season and I can't help but think that they really help to set the tone for the summer fishery.  I am sure many guides wont book a trip to  go floss but the ones that do really make it harder for our locals to stay off the water.  Like I said that mob mentality IMO is a real issue and I think the guides in our province need to lead the industry in a better direction.

[tnt]

Everyone knows the mob mentality...well unfortunately thats kind of the problem with the fraser floss fishery.  If one guy does it that one person then makes it OK for a bunch more and then the problem just snow balls. 

One issue I think that needs to be address is guides taking clients out flossing.  I saw several guide boats at one bar imparticular this season and I can't help but think that they really help to set the tone for the summer fishery.  I am sure many guides wont book a trip to  go floss but the ones that do really make it harder for our locals to stay off the water.  Like I said that mob mentality IMO is a real issue and I think the guides in our province need to lead the industry in a better direction.

every guide of the fraser valley angling guides association was requested not to bottom bounce on the fraser unless fisheries removed the request for selective methods.... not being able to speak for the guides that are not members, but please dont paint all guides with the same brush... FVAGA worked really hard this year to gurantee that they would lead by example. It is tough to explain to a client why we are not hooking any fish, while the BBers are drifting every 5 minutes...

bottom line is our sockeye return for 2007 is in trouble, instead of looking for your own short term gratification of killing a salmon lets look a little ahead in the future and lead by example... conservation is the most important part of our salmon season... ensuring that the fish are needed to reach the spawning beds is of utmost importance....

[Eagleye]

The incident of people killing sockeye was not witnessed by me but it was reported within twenty minutes to a DFO boat in the area. No action was taken, it happened adjacent to the Katz reserve downstream from the pipeline crossing two days before the river was closed. There were a large group of Oriental fishermen had one section of bar tied up and were killing every fish they caught and giving them to their wives to hide in the bush, a friend of mine observed this from a boat and when going back up river pulled over the DFO boat and reported it to them. The officers told them that seeing as they did not witness it personally and could not go up into the reserve to search for the fish or prove who hid them there, there was nothing they could do about it.
    In the incident of the person standing on the fish to unhook it was a female fisherperson and she was confronted by another fisherman he was flat out told to f off with her boyfriend standing behind her, as for people kicking fish back into the river you might as well be whistling into the wind as try to tell people how to release their catch.
   I have no idea where you people that are defending this bottom bouncing as a ethical method of fishing go to fish but you should come up here during the week when the real meat hounds are out it would change a lot of peoples perspectives on the whole fishery. When the FN's stated that they had absolute proof that sports anglers were killing sockeye there is no question in my mind that they were telling the truth, not all the fishermen out there share the same ethical standards as the the ones on this forum like to believe they do.
   As for Bill Otway, the last time I saw him on TV he was standing there with his bottom bouncing outfit holding up a sockeye that he had killed during a closed season, to some people that made him a hero to others it just made him look like another poaching snagger.

Your argument is very one sided Nosey.  Picking the wrong doings of a few individuals and casting the blame to bbers as a whole is very narrow minded and unfair.  From what I saw and heard compliance was very high with catching and releasing sockeye in the water properly but as always you paint a very different picture.  The fact that DFO cannot go onto a reserve to search for poached fish is the major problem not the defiant family who killed a few.  Your comment about Bill Otway again appears to serve your personal agenda as it only tells part of the story.  For those who don't know Mr. Otway sacrificed one sockeye in order to challenge DFO in court over DFO reluctance/inability to stop the illegal fishing practices of the natives.  The charges were later dropped by the spineless agency in charge of protecting OUR resource,  therefore he was not able to take them to court.  I guess they didn't want anything interfering with their hidden agenda mandate from Ottawa.

Here are some links to the previous threads on "Operation BBQ" :


http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?PHPSESSID=bb9a598649e4d80e8681ae19d847c604;topic=4560.0
[/url
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?PHPSESSID=bb9a598649e4d80e8681ae19d847c604;board=1;action=display;threadid=4559
[/url] 
http://www.fishingwithrod.com/yabbse/index.php?PHPSESSID=bb9a598649e4d80e8681ae19d847c604;topic=5020.0

[BwiBwi]

Hi Nosey, did this happen on Aug. 18th Sat?

[Gooey]

Speaking of fishing on a reserve, could these people have actually been natives?  The report as nosey states, came from a boat...how close did he get?  Could he be incorrect in identifying them as asian vs FN? 

All I know is that non-natives are not very welcome on reserve land especially when you are talking about being there to access AND poach sockeye.  Imagine a group of sporties being caught by FN members (who cant even food fish) trespassing thru their reserve with a bunch of poached fish?!?  That could get real messy.

[RA40]

Nosey, I had spent a considerable time responding to your comments but somehow It was lost when I tried to hit post. I am not about to spend another 1/2 hour writing a new response so i will keep it short.

To say that the Sport fishing community has does nothing, does not only prove that you have very little knowledge of what is really going on but is insulting to those of us who have volunteered 100's of hours on behalf of all sportfisherman,

Second, on a normal year the anglers who participate in the sockeye fishery is 3000 to 5000 per day, that is DFO numbers. This year the counts are between 150 to 250 anglers per day fishing the entire river from Mission to Hope. How do you come up with the conclusion that the sport fishery is larger than in past years and that anglers are not complying with the request to avoid sockeye?

Comments like yours are becoming more common on forums like this. They come from listening to other uniformed people that make the same kind of comments with very little knowledge or using hear say to come to their conclusions. I suggest you spend less time typing and more time reading and getting involved in local issues.

[Nicole]

RE: The sockeye mortality study...

If it can be proven that socks are not dying because of catch and release, then the legal implications will be obvious...

However I doubt many of them would make it back, they would be caught in nets and the tags would be thrown away, lI doubt FNs would want to cooperate with this.

Few tagged fish would return, and a higher than normal mortality would be assumed... The sportsfishers would lose again, this time with a study that proves the FNs claims.

Not sure how controls could be built in to keep the results from being skewed.

Cheers,
Nicole

[Xgolfman]

RE: The sockeye mortality study...

If it can be proven that socks are not dying because of catch and release, then the legal implications will be obvious...

However I doubt many of them would make it back, they would be caught in nets and the tags would be thrown away, lI doubt FNs would want to cooperate with this.

Few tagged fish would return, and a higher than normal mortality would be assumed... The sportsfishers would lose again, this time with a study that proves the FNs claims.

Not sure how controls could be built in to keep the results from being skewed.

Cheers,
Nicole

They can't be because in reality the government doesn't give a damn about sporties period...Everyone can play all the lip service they want to this issue but it's not going to change one damn thing...DFO is here for the express purpose of making sure the Indians get their fish...Commerical is second but way down their list of concerns..and sporties are non existant to them...This continued debate  and finger pointing by guys who brag about the trouble they cause on their home forums is ridiculous...
Everyone needs to realize that nothing is going to change EVER until the fish are gone and while the Indians will be the main contributors by netting completely across the rivers, throwing pinks and chum on the banks to die etc. The fish farms SUPPORTED by the b.c. government are to blame just as much if not more so...
It's politics's boys and girls and your not gonna win a gunfight by spitting water...which is giving more credit to spitting water then it's due...I don't think IMO that anything we can do or say will make a damn bit of difference...Even if we all stop bitching and become one front and fight this I doubt are chances are more then 10% that DFO or the Feds will do more then lip service to us....BUT at least that's 10% more then we have now...So, Either join a group and organize and get ready to fight and I mean actually fight, using your fists or more if you have too, then your wasting your time and mine and you will see the end of the salmon in your lifetime...IMHO..