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[glog]

Ah endpoints.

Instead of giving mother nature a hand and restoring the balance. Lets all do mass destrucion, another great idea like moving the entire population of the lower mainland.

All you have to do is use your eyes, instead of rhetoric to see what's happening and what's funny the solution is easy.  To bad the die hards are too stubborn to see it.

As the gravel continues to build up in this large area, mother nature will take care of it and we will have the consequences for a period of time then eventually it will be restored over time

If you want mass destruction look at Mount St Helens and what it did to those rivers. The Habitat completely wiped out yet,it is coming back.  AL be it very very slowly.

 So if the solution is done is small pieces the effects will be negligible and all will benefit. so we dont need a mt st helens type solution.

Instead of concentrating on these projects that are aimed at improvements go after the real culprits the NETS.

[buck]

Glog   
Its nice to know that our resource is being managed by gravel companies and politicians. You must have bought into all the scare tactics that if you don't remove gravel from the  Fraser river then every one will be under water. Yes the Fraser might flood one day, but I doubt that removing gravel will change the outcome if it does. What it will do is have a negative impact on our resource for years to come.

[clownfish]

I've reviewed the powerpoint presentation and it confirms what I intrinsically understood about this. Anyone recall an old saying about "water always finds its own level"? Given that the volume of gravel being extracted is in reality barely even "a drop in a bucket" it is obvious that that will be the effect on the level of water during the freshet. The volume of gravel that they remove will be filled by the same amount of water, however this isn't standing water, it is FLOWING, therefore that will have practically no effect on the overall level of water flowing thru that area once the levels exceed the former volume filled by the gravel. The volume of water from upstream will  have no problem filling in these tiny holes and still be able to spread out to fill the maximum area/volume that is required to provide it with the lowest level it can reach. "Reduction of flood danger" in a pig's eye! To effectively reduce flooding danger on the Fraser River you would have to remove at least a couple of feet of gravel from almost the entire breadth of the river, for the full length of the gravelled area of the river, IE. from Hope to just above Mission, AND then dredge sand/mud from the rest of the river downstream and out into the delta.

This by no means is to say that the other effects of the gravel removal would be as trivial. When all of that water starts flowing thru during freshet is when the truth will "surface", unfortunately it won't be possible to correct it then and the full extent of the damage will only be revealled after the fact. And those responsible will be quietly sitting and smiling at their bank balances, knowing that the worst we can do is vote their party out of government and they will still get their "Golden Parachute" pensions. There must be a lot of money changing hands at the higher levels of government and business, and plenty of threats passing down from there to the levels of the bureaucrats and lower echelons, for this to be allowed to happen.

[bentrod]

Ok, I must be a little slow on the uptake after 20 years of school and 16 years in the profession, I am still not understanding things as clearly as you.  Somehow I'm really having a hard time connecting the dots between mt. st helens and the fraser.  Tell me how I can take these blinders off so I can believe that if we would have taken enough gravel out of the toutle river, it would have never flooded during the volcanic eruption.    

The fraser may be depositing sediment in places different from historic depositories, however, it is not 100% due to mother nature.  Logging, development, channel migration, changes in flow and many other factors are at play.  Nature is just trying to get back to balance and cannot happen if we continue to monkey with it.  As far as catastrophic events go...They have always happened and always will no matter how hard we try to prevent them.   All we can do is try to stay out of the way, (locate your infrastructure, homes and other facilities out of the way).  

P.S. Like I've said in a few other threads, this gravel and sediment is not just necessary in the river.  These sediments and nutrients are critical to sea life and also recharges coastal erosion points.  

[clownfish]

Bentrod, there is no point of comparison between the "gravel grab" and potential flooding from the Fraser River and what happened to the rivers affected by the eruption of Mt. St. Helens.

Ok, I must be a little slow on the uptake after 20 years of school and 16 years in the profession, I am still not understanding things as clearly as you.  Somehow I'm really having a hard time connecting the dots between mt. st helens and the fraser.  Tell me how I can take these blinders off so I can believe that if we would have taken enough gravel out of the toutle river, it would have never flooded during the volcanic eruption

Only glog knows why he would try to make that comparison, doesn't make sense to me either. That was one of those totally cataclysmic occurrences that only serves to demonstrate that most natural disasters usually make what we can do over the short term (and without resorting to nuclear weapons) appear as minuscule in comparison. Do you mind if I ask what profession? I'm a computer technician myself, and at 49 still soaking up as much knowledge about sciences and technologies (and fishing of course ) as I can. An "old school" geek and damn proud of it!   While I could be wrong about the money changing hands in my previous statement , the part about my understanding the damage that is being done by the "gravel grab" and its imaginary effect on potential flooding all sort of "flows" along logically for me.

The fraser may be depositing sediment in places different from historic depositories, however, it is not 100% due to mother nature.  Logging, development, channel migration, changes in flow and many other factors are at play.  Nature is just trying to get back to balance and cannot happen if we continue to monkey with it.  As far as catastrophic events go...They have always happened and always will no matter how hard we try to prevent them.   All we can do is try to stay out of the way, (locate your infrastructure, homes and other facilities out of the way

Definitely, all of the things that "we" do have a cumulative effect on the environment, I wouldn't even consider arguing against that. And when Nature unleashes her worst, yep, get out of the way quick!

P.S. Like I've said in a few other threads, this gravel and sediment is not just necessary in the river.  These sediments and nutrients are critical to sea life and also recharges coastal erosion points. 

Yes, definitely, no disagreement there either.

Maybe glog is working for the provincial liberals.

[Rodney]

Posting these for Chris, his comments to follow.

[bentrod]

clownfish,
I'm a biologist for the State of Washington.  I don't claim to be an expert, I'm not a hydro geo morphologist, nor am I an expert in any one field, (not even close).  I'm a wildlife habitat biologist who predominantly spends my time up to my neck with the Endangered Species Act.  I spend most my time around road construction and consulting with Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife, US Fish and Wildlife Services and National Marine Fisheries to get concurrance and work out project mitigation agreements.  Consequently, I have been to a number of classes and conferences these last couple years where many topics dealt with construction practices.
BTW, it's interesting to look at those photos Rodney posted.  Even though they are only a snapshot and don't tell the whole story, a picture can tell you how seriously the contractor and funding entity are taking their environmental responsibilities.   

[clownfish]

Bentrod, sounds like you're one of the people that have the privilege, and burden, of "walking the fine green line" (to twist the phrase a bit). Progress, in its many forms is necessary, but not at the expense of the environment, and you've got the "fun" job of trying to strike the balance, I don't envy you. Pleasure meeting you.

The second photo seems to show that they are well on their way to the 5 metres of depth they want to excavate to.

[bentrod]

I love my job.  I don't always make a ton of friends, but at least I can still sleep at night with a clean conscience.  It was nice meeting you too clownfish.  We'll have to hook up next October when I come up for my annual BC fishing trip.  Typically we bring a couple RV's and stay at the Vedder Campground.  We fish hard and relax even harder.  We have great BBQ's in the rain and go through a ton of cold ones. 

As far as the picture goes...Are there any silt fences, re fueling stations, plastic over the spoils, or other things to reduce sedimentation or petroleum to the fraser?   

[chris gadsden]

I love my job.  I don't always make a ton of friends, but at least I can still sleep at night with a clean conscience.  It was nice meeting you too clownfish.  We'll have to hook up next October when I come up for my annual BC fishing trip.  Typically we bring a couple RV's and stay at the Vedder Campground.  We fish hard and relax even harder.  We have great BBQ's in the rain and go through a ton of cold ones. 

As far as the picture goes...Are there any silt fences, re fueling stations, plastic over the spoils, or other things to reduce sedimentation or petroleum to the fraser?   

I cannot answer your questions bentrod as I was on the far edge of the river when I shot the photo's. The excavations as you can see are going full bore as the date they have to be out of the river is March 15 unless an extension is granted.

The ad hoc committee after completing the power point presentation is presently working on some other options to prevent more of this destruction of fish habitat in the future. As those that know the river well know this has nothing to do with flood protection but is all about getting the gravel. By the way does anyone know what 400,000 cm of gravel would be worth, excluding any trucking costs etc. on the open market.

The ad hoc committee will be making a presentation tomorrow night at a PFRCC wild Salmon meeting tomorrow night in Fort Langley and also looking into holding a public meeting in the near future to discuss this issue.

As a side note while up at the site yesterday taking the photo's a chap pulls up where I was parked and asked "not planning on dumping garbage here are you" Of course anyone that knows the Leaf Mobile knows I usually have bags of garbage from the bags I have along the Vedder in the back along with other junk but I found this a bit of a insult after the work we have done with the CVRCC the last 6 years.

If I would have a bit quicker on the uptake I should have said " No way would I consider polluting the environment like you see going on right out in front of us as the environment of the Fraser River is being compromised in so many ways right now"

He would not have understood I am sure as most of the public has been brain washed into thinking this work is the end all to prevent a major flood. I am glad many are standing up to correct this way of thinking but it will be a uphill battle as most of those with the power seem to have the upper hand, for the time being.

[troutbreath]

From what I've read this gravel removal goes on 24/7 till March 15. I don't see any form of lighting to help with the removal at night. Must be a real top notch operation. Also read some fluff from a first nation guy who became a expert on the gravel problem by living by the river. I would suggest he back that up with some education. An illusionist would make that guy believe he was Napoleon by making him see Josaphine.

[chris gadsden]

Yes the article you refer to was in last Thursday's Vancouver Province, I believe I sent it to Rodney, maybe he will post it. I agree it was not very factual, I would hope more people would become guardians of our river systems and not bent on continuing to destroy them and the fish stocks at the same time.

I guess some governments are more worried about carbon taxes these days.

[clownfish]

I guess some governments are more worried about carbon taxes these days.

Chris, while I'm all for everyone trying to do as much as possible to reduce the damage to the environment that "we" have been doing, about the only incandescent lights we have at home are the ones in the fridge and stove, and I try to make certain that every scrap of paper, metal, plastic, and glass that comes into the house is sent for recycling when we're done with it, etc., etc. I don't like having my arms twisted, I truly feel that the carbon tax is just "smoke and mirrors" (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!). They call it revenue neutral, what a laugh! It's not revenue neutral for the tax payers. Then they hand out $100.00 to every man, woman, and child in the province. Call me cynical if you like (I am somewhat ), but I'm pretty sure there is an election coming around soon, otherwise why would they bring out the "carrots to lead the donkeys" with. That money could be better spent on a wide range of uses, including enhancements to the hatchery programs as a way of mitigating some of the damage from this "gravel grab", and other threats to the various fisheries. Like I mentioned above, I honestly believe it's all about payoffs to, or from, their past and future financial supporters, friends, and relatives.

I love my job.  I don't always make a ton of friends, but at least I can still sleep at night with a clean conscience.  It was nice meeting you too clownfish.  We'll have to hook up next October when I come up for my annual BC fishing trip.  Typically we bring a couple RV's and stay at the Vedder Campground.  We fish hard and relax even harder.  We have great BBQ's in the rain and go through a ton of cold ones.

Bentrod, that sounds like an idea. Can you give me a guess as to when, I’m currently figuring out my vacation days for July 08-June 09, the wife has suggested camping at that location a few times, so I can easily set a few days aside around a weekend for then. You can send replies to me at clownfish@live.ca

Tight Lines

[glog]

bought into scare tactics in regards to the flooding.

Wrong!!

What I haven't bought into is the scare and fear mongering tactics used by the enviro's to stop all projects:
statements like millions of fish are going to die, all habitiat is going to be destoyed, Fraser valley turned into giant gravel pit.

The powerpoint is a classic exagageration of number manipulation and exaggeration.

The whole idea as i see it, behind these gravel holes is to remove the gravel, then gravel  from higher up moves down and in fills the holes and so on thus preventing the gravel acuumualting further downstream and thus reduce the potentail for flooding.

Its to bad that guys can't see the overall benfits, instead of looking at the area of the gravel removal alone.  The direct benfits from gravel removal at spring bar are not at spring bar, itself its downstream all the way to mission such that its 400,000 tons less gravel being dumped down there by dumping it into the newly created holes.


As for the loss of habitat I don't see any. By the time the spring has come and gone, these gravel holes will be filled in long before the summer and fall fish seasons and a full year before the pinks come in again, thus creating the same or better habitat than what's there right now. 

So no I'm not being brainwashed like the others by these wild exaggeration, poor and/or selective science, and failure to look at the overall picture.

As for the liberals and NDP I don't like any of them, but I do like to work and if these enviro groups continue to stop,delay legitimate projects then we will run out of work . Maybe that's not too bad , we can all become fishing guides living of the americans. If they have any money left.

Like I said stop the wild exaggeration and lets get back to a balance, where legitimatre projects can be completed and still maintain a healthy enviroment instead of this no development at any cost mentallity. 

[speycaster]

Glog i thought it was "any development no matter the cost" in BC now. Then there are those like glog whose only master is the dollar. Some just have to butcher the environment to pay for all things they bought without the money to pay for them, i think it is called over extended. Just one pay cheque from bankruptcy.