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Author Topic: "There are safer places to get gravel"  (Read 144257 times)

speycaster

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Re: "There are safer places to get gravel"
« Reply #90 on: February 10, 2008, 06:56:49 PM »

Does not work with a mac Rod. ;D
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Rodney

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Re: "There are safer places to get gravel"
« Reply #91 on: February 10, 2008, 08:11:35 PM »

I just turned the slides into JPG files for those who cannot access the Powerpoint file.

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gman

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Re: "There are safer places to get gravel"
« Reply #92 on: February 10, 2008, 09:31:45 PM »

Thanks for posting that.
It is very intersting and sad reading.
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Rodney

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Re: "There are safer places to get gravel"
« Reply #93 on: February 26, 2008, 09:30:04 PM »

'Gravel grab' or saving grace
The science behind flood protection value along Fraser being questioned

Paul J. Henderson, The Times
Published: Tuesday, February 26, 2008

Large scale gravel removal in the Fraser River is now underway near Seabird Island, but opposition from a growing number of groups suggests it's nothing but a "gravel grab."

The science behind the flood protection value of the gravel removal at Spring Bar is also in question.

"The single-site 400,000 cubic metres removal is, in my estimation, much too large," said Michael Church, a sedimentologist and river hydraulics scientist at the University of British Columbia.

"The head of Spring Bar is a notably poor place for such an extraction . . . excavation of a relatively deep hole in the bed is a poor choice for the removal, and the effect on water levels will be small. The latter point has been known for some years from mathematical modelling of various proposed removals."

But Minister of Public Safety John Les stands behind the current gravel removal project on Spring Bar.

"We need to look at the long term," Les told the Times yesterday. "If someone were to say 'removing 400,000 cubic metres won't make much of a difference,' they would be correct. But the cumulative effect over time will be significant.

"One year isn't going to get the job done. We need to be able to do this year after year after year."

In January, the provincial government, through Les's ministry, announced $564,000 to fund a temporary bridge across the river to access the gravel on Spring Bar with an aim to reduce Fraser River flood risk and protect public safety and property.

"Major deposits, including entire islands of gravel that have formed over time, are increasing the flood risk for the millions of people who live and work in the Fraser Valley," Les said in a press release.

The Fraser Valley Salmon Society (FVSS)--backed by the B.C. Wildlife Federation, the David Suzuki Foundation, among other groups--have suggested that not only will the gravel removal damage high-quality salmon rearing habitat, it won't do anything to help to protect communities like Chilliwack anyway.

"I'm convinced by the science I have seen," said Frank Kwak, president of the FVSS. "Removing gravel out of the Fraser River is not going to do anything significant from protecting the city from flooding."

Kwak points to a number of scientific engineering reports including a gravel extraction modelling report done for Fisheries and Oceans Canada by Northwest Hydraulic Consultants that concluded: "It does not appear that large scale gravel removals from the gravel reach of the Fraser River are effective in lowering the flood profile."

Les's ministry has suggested that between 15,000 and 63,000 dump truck loads of gravel wash down the Fraser River each year, coming to rest between Hope and Mission.

But a study prepared in 2006 for the B.C. Ministry of Lands and Agriculture entitled Fraser River Potential Gravel Removals 2007-2011 reported that the area in question is actually a net area of gravel loss, not accumulation as the government has reported.

The study said there was more than four million cubic metres eroding from this stretch of river between 1952 and 1999, and more since then.

"Comparison to the 2006 georeferenced air photographs and the 1999 channel mapping indicates that the bar on the east side of Spring Bar has actually eroded by about 90 metres over the last seven years," the study concluded.

Kwak's main concern is that the area in question is a 10-hectare footprint equivalent to a four-metre-wide salmon rearing stream 25 kilometres long.

Kwak suggested this really is about the valuable gravel being used for the busy construction industry.

Work at Spring Bar has begun and will continue with DFO approval until March 15. For this work the contract provides the contractor with all rights to the gravel removed.

To protect against any environmental damage, the government announced has said an environmental monitor is there, but given the expense and size of the operation, Kwak says the monitor will have no real power.

"Do you really think that man has the capacity to actually say, 'whoa, you are not moving another rock of this gravel bar,'" he said.

Les responded that the oversight at the gravel removal site will be legitimate.

"Does that person have the ability to shut the site down?" Les asked, and then answered: "Yes they do. I've been clear from the beginning I want this to be meaningful oversight."

bentrod

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Re: "There are safer places to get gravel"
« Reply #94 on: February 27, 2008, 07:57:09 PM »

Time to start a campaign to oust John Les. 
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Old Black Dog

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Re: "There are safer places to get gravel"
« Reply #95 on: February 28, 2008, 07:53:00 AM »

Are they done yet?
What colour is the river above and below the gravel extraction?

Are the Early Run Chinook coming through where the extraction is taking place?
What effect is there on this run getting past this?
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glog

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Re: "There are safer places to get gravel"
« Reply #96 on: February 28, 2008, 12:08:33 PM »

Here’s a totally different point of view!!!

As someone that lives downstream along the Fraser, who has watched it rise for many, many years, I once again see a document with wild exaggerations, narrow vision and total bias to one side of an opinion.  The report totally ignores the wider scale effects and the river morphology but simply concentrates on the local area of the gravel extraction in order to create sensationalism.

There are a couple of obvious things that are completely ignored in the report as it looks only at the spring bar area.

here's some simple questions.

1.  If gravel at Spring Bar has been depleting instead of accumulating over the years then why can't paddle boats make it up through the area when they used to back in the early 1900’s. So much for the degradation crap.

2.   The report harps on about the loss of pink spawning in one area, but totally forgets to mention that additional spawning areas will be created as gravel from further upstream moves and fills in the hole during the freshets. All one has to look at is the gravel removal done on the Vedder and look where the fish actually spawn.  How many of you fellow fisherman catch all those lovely coho in those gravle holes in the fall!!!  These holes hold spawning fish and slowly fill in over the years as gravel rom upstream is moved downstream. With very little impact on the fishery.

3.   Interesting enough the report fails to mention that for every ton of gravel removed up stream is one less ton that gets deposited further downstream for example around my place thus raising the water level.  So removing gravel anywhere upstream has a major effect on downstream flooding. A point deliberately ignored by the report. 
4.   The entire Fraser river from  Hope on down has shallowed by a huge amount, all due to the deposition of gravel from upstream. That is A PROVEN FACT. Just ask the boaters.

Its time to bring balance to these environmental issues, instead of these total biased and misleading reports that try to sway public opinion. 

These special groups make a living by stopping all developments at any cost and do’nt have any care as to where the rest of us earn the money to feed our families as long as it doesn’t involve digging, building, processing or any other human activity.

Here’s a final comment for everyone to think about.  What contributes the most green house gases to the atmosphere?  The answer will surprise everyone.

 If you want to see hypocrites just go look at where the major managers of these huge environmental movements live and what vehicles they drive. Sorry about the soapbox, but I’ve seen so many people’s lives ruined in the past 20 years by these self serving special interest groups that only get a portion of the facts correct.
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bentrod

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Re: "There are safer places to get gravel"
« Reply #97 on: February 28, 2008, 12:18:48 PM »

Would not be an issue if people would not live or build in/around natural river migration/flood plains. 
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glog

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Re: "There are safer places to get gravel"
« Reply #98 on: February 28, 2008, 03:50:24 PM »

good solution.

 Lets move the entire lower mainland up into the hills.  just in case anyone hasn't noticed the entire area is/was part of the fraser deltaic system.

A good measure is how fast the boundary upstream of mission is moving down stream.  It's a very interesting boundary as that's where a lot of the sediment load is dumped as the water slows down.  Every year it migrates a little further downstream.

Which is booth good and bad.  Good because its creating more gravel fish habitat, bad because its shallowing the river.

Its strange how there's this outrage about fish habitat destruction on a small part of the Fraser, yet not a peep out of the fish habitat destruction caused by nature itself.  A visit to the Chehalis river sure brings that home,  look at the miles of habitat destroyed overnight that is rebuilding in a different path than before. All those stranded coho eggs that will die when the hatch as there is no water anymore.

Instead of concentrating on the small stuff concentrate on banning all net fishing, then watch thenumber of fish increase!!

cheers
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bentrod

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Re: "There are safer places to get gravel"
« Reply #99 on: February 28, 2008, 04:11:31 PM »

Moving towns...Stranger things have happened.  True destruction of natural habitat is incising channels, and not letting nature take its course.  Incised channels lead to head cutting and massive erosion.  Which, intern leads to large rip rap banks or bulkheads.  Gravel distribution happens all the time.  As long as water moves, so does the substrate.  These deltas caused by gravel redistribution create important estruaries for out migrating fish.  It's not all about spawning habitat.  Also, most of our fertile agriculture lands were created by floods in flood plains. 

The only benefit for deepening a channel is for shipping lanes.  Straightening and deepening river channels increases the velocity of the water.  Unless the BC government is planning on dredging their way all the way out to salt water, they're setting themselves up for a major event downstream at the next nearest chokepoint. 

Sorry man, but you're fighting a loosing argument here. 
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buck

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Re: "There are safer places to get gravel"
« Reply #100 on: February 28, 2008, 07:36:24 PM »

GLOG

      Your assumption that little damage is being done by the removal of gravel from such systems as the Fraser and Chilliwack rivers as it pertains to fish habitat is not correct.
       Loss of valuable spawning gravel has forced chum, pinks and chinook to spawn in areas not suitable for optimal survivals. Shifting river channels due to gravel mining will
       continue to degrade our river systems for a net loss. If one looks in depth at what has been going on, on the Vedder river over the last 10 years you may change your mind.
       Yes those large pits hold lots of fish but thats about all. Chum tend to spawn on the fringes of these area due to the freshly cleaned gravel. During the fist winter freshet
       they are all washed away as these holes and the river bed shifts. If you were to look at historical spawning areas in the upper water shed they have little or no gravel. Fish
       are being forced into areas such as the lower river to spawn in areas of high risk. Flood events take there toll on salmon juveniles and eggs especially in areas that are not protect
       buy log jams and established river channels.
     



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chris gadsden

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Re: "There are safer places to get gravel"
« Reply #101 on: February 28, 2008, 07:42:56 PM »

Good post, very informative as well as coming from someone that really knows what is going on here on the Chilliwack Vedder system. It certainly is a shame this is allowed to go on every 2 years.

Thanks for the post.

troutbreath

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Re: "There are safer places to get gravel"
« Reply #102 on: February 28, 2008, 10:24:56 PM »

My brothers place in PoCo is going underwater. I think lots of areas are going to need higher dykes and probably pumps behind them to keep the water out with the ocean levels rising.

Glog from what I understand as the sediments build up it causes the land to sink/compact with the weight.The sediments get carried right out to the ocean. Which may cause some concern to those living in Richmond. 
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another SLICE of dirty fish perhaps?

glog

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Re: "There are safer places to get gravel"
« Reply #103 on: March 01, 2008, 10:24:48 AM »

Not really true due to the slow moving current, gravels are dropped as soon as the water slow down.  The effect is so obvious from Mission to Hope.  Anyone familiar with the fraser for 20 years can see this.  The gravel comming down is shallowing the river bed at least 14 times faster than compaction.  Thta makes it not only bad for us humans but for the fish also.

AS for the vedder and gravel these are typical enviro comments. If you folow the logic of statements then the biggest cause to the loss of fish habitat is not gravel pits, its mother nature her self. Cutting into clay banks for example.  Mother nature does more re arranging of the habitat than any other effects. Yet strangely enough the fish still spawn and survive. The effects of these smaller pits on the fish habitat are as usual over exaggerated and blown out of portion in order to support a weak point.

One final thought why do you think the fish are spawning more in the lower river than the upper could it possibly be due to the river getting shallower and the fish not being able to make it up into the middle and upper areas, and thus staying longer in the lower reaches.  That shallowing has nothing to do with the gravel pits.

As the climate changes these condtions will continue to worsen and I have news for you there's nothing we humans can do the prevent these climate changes, as they have been happening many times for over the past 500 million years. We should be concentrating the money on mitigating the effects of the climate change,as even if we stopped all emissions and went back to caveman days, the earth will get warmer and the climate will change. There's is abundant proof of this in the ice and rock records of our planet.

cheers
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bentrod

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Re: "There are safer places to get gravel"
« Reply #104 on: March 01, 2008, 07:29:45 PM »

I've got a great idea.  How about we dredge each and every river.  We could then line them all with the concrete from the gravel.  Poof! we could then conquer mother nature. 

I doubt that fish are having a tough time getting up to the middle and upper reaches.  They will spawn where the substrate, water quality, depth and competition is suitable. 

As far as your other comments about mother nature being more destructive than all other human activities goes...Clearly we're reading different books and you probably agree with my first comment, so I won't even bother arguing.  I just hope I'm right, or we're all doomed. 
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