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[bentrod]

Chris, last I checked, the cost of gravel charged to a state project (Washington) is usually 2-3 dollars per yard, up to $10 US if it is premium material and the market has driven it that far up. 

As far as glog's comments go, I can only say wow!  Chris and others have about as hard evidence as it gets.  It is not selective, or biased.  Going to a de watered spawning bed and finding dead fish is pretty conclusive.  Cause: no water, Effect: dead fish.  1+1 = you guessed it 2. 

BTW, we are not advocating for no growth.  It is called smart growth and should be paid for by those who proffit financially from it, not the tax payers. 

One other thing...There are other sources of gravel.  As I see it, the only reason the govt. is getting it from rivers is it is easier and the proffit margin is higher. 

[glog]

Same old same old rhetoric and exaggeration's.

Speycaster, what do you expect us humans to do to earn a living if there is NO development at any cost.  Maybe you well off and don't need to work but the rest of us do.  All I'm saying is that there is always a balance between development and nature and both can be sustained.  Nice to see the NDP up to ther old tactcis once again. Every time they get in they effectively kill the BC economy.

As for the dried up spawning beds, I see them all the time caused by mother nature not gravel extraction. 
Example last year on the Fraser no one mentioned that last year was one of the lowest flows on record for the Fraser and that the dried up spawning beds were the result. No it was all blamed on the gravel extraction.

also, ever been to the chehalis lately and seen whats happened to the spawning beds over there.

This is typical enviro exaggeration, enviro's see a dried up channel with a six dead fish in it then start blaming it on humans and expanding how millions of fish are going to die. I call the " chicken little sky is falling tactic" or the end of the world is coming.

finally, as for the gravel. I got news for you the gravel they are removing is low quality gravel, not high quality. so no huge dollars in it just a little bit.

And I for one support the gravel removal and will continue to support reasonbale development  as long as it is does in a reasonable manner which it seems to be doing, despite all the exaggerations and fear mongering being created

[bentrod]

Like I said before, I'm not against development, just development at all costs.  Not only is it smart growth, but it's also responsible growth.   Just because it's easy to get resources from somewhere or build somewhere doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.  And, like it or not, maximizing a proffit is not a "right". 

[bentrod]

One more thing... Hasty decisions and poor planning often results in construction site injuries and unforseen environmental impacts. Glog, now that you have at least come out and officially admitted that you're proffiting from this gravel take, maybe you can tell us why there are no hi-vis fences, silt fences, plastic on spoils, runoff berms, water quality ponds, re fueling stations, vegetable oil for hydraulic fluid in the tractors, etc. that are always required for this work in water bodies like this one in the US, without exception?  I was going to say gravel extraction, but extraction for extraction purposes has all but been outlawed in the US.  The USACE still gets away with dredging to keep shipping lanes open, but that's about it.    P.S. I'd really like to see the environmental mitigation agreement, (in other words, what is the govt. doing to try to repair the damage they're doing)?  Are they going back and putting more woody debrit in, planting more riparian vegetation, opening up any side channels to add to stream complexity, etc.? 

[glog]

bentrod. FYI I am not making a single cent of any gravel removal and have absolutely nothing to do with the Fraser gravel other than a third party observer, who happens to live, work and pay taxes close to the Fraser River and has watched the slow degradation of this amazing river system through stupidity and lack of action.

The bottom line is that the fraser river is shallowing at a large rate and will continue to do so unless we intervene to help out.  Blame forestry. whoever it doesnt matter, and before anyone cries BS think about the old paddle steamers going up beyond hope.

All I wish is that the NIMBY's would stick thier heads out of the ground and realize whats going on.

As for the safety issues, My guess it's a non union job and the union is now using its tactics as well to shut it down, to make it go union.

Another special interest group, thats had its day.

Nice to see the tactics have not changed if someone dare to challenge the almighty enviro's.

Step one Discredit them

a)  Saying they are for total destruction of enviroment at any costs
b)  Accuse them of making money or some how benefitting from the challenge
c)  bring up worker safety issues or other attacks and slanders

Step two
start the name calling

step three
cut them off from the platform or shut down thier opinions

This is right out of the political , or enviro or any speciall interest group play book.

I for one are not going to take it any more, the balance will be restored one way or another,

[troutbreath]

Back in the day of steamships etc, the paddle wheeler was used on rivers that were shallow, like the Fraser. When the railway went in the paddle wheeler went out. They used them in Alberta and Saskatchewan too. But things change and railways mostly displaced the wheeler. It wasn't gravel building up that stopped them from using them.

I think you just have some sort of longing for the old days of the paddle wheeler, and all the jobs that were lost when they left. Get a job with C.N. I used to work on their ships. No paddle wheelers though, that was too long ago. I quit because they only gave you two weeks vacation.

[bentrod]

Glog, please read this carefully, because it is very apparent that you haven't read any of the other posts. 

News flash, shallowing of rivers happens.  It's nothing new, it's nothing to worry about.  Unless this material is highly toxic or radioactive, it is meant to be in the river and eventually make it out to the coast line.

We are not using scare tactics.  Some of the world's premier experts on hydrology and the environment have weighed in and to my knowledge, they have firm science on their side and all agree.  Which, by the way, who ever approved this gravel grab only has emotional logic.  That is exactly why they tried to sell it to the public as flood control.  Now that they have been called out, they are backing off their stance and are looking for other reasons to justify their actions.  No one has yet to flip flop on the environmental side. 

As far as the non-union job thing goes..I seriously doubt that the union sabotaged the project to cause the fatality so it could then become a union job.  It's because the job was so poorly thought out and hastily executed.  Also, you act like this is a huge effort by rich environmental fat cats.  Last time I checked, most of this work to hold government responsible is being done by the minority and volunteers like Chris and Rod.  Correct me if I'm wrong, Chris and Rod, but you're not driving a new mercedes financed by the earth liberation front are you? 

BTW, my special interest group play book for dummies 2 ed. comes out next week.  I know, I am already stinking rich from my  environmental work, but I just need more money so I can compete with my other filthy rich environmental mafia friends, (trying to be sarcastic).   

[glog]

Missed the point totally as usual.

Just try and get a paddle wheeler up the Fraser today. Duh!!

"News flash, shallowing of rivers happens.  It's nothing new, it's nothing to worry about.  Unless this material is highly toxic or radioactive, it is meant to be in the river and eventually make it out to the coast line. "

Had a good laugh at this statement.  Filling in rivers with gravel and silt is now ,nothing new. Guess you haven't heard of the Coquitlam River.

Its a good thing that I fully read lots and not just the parts I like.

As for the fatality is is not only irresponsible its completely in bad taste to use a fatality to forward ones own agenda.  Especially when one is not aware of the full facts surrounding it.

 I just love the woods used to describe things " some of the world's premier experts", whatabout the rest.   There are premier scientists in hydrology that are support and see the need for the gravel removal.

If these are the same premier scientists that produced the powerpoint presentation then they had better return their degrees.

Don't use scare tactics.  What a joke.  What about "Millions of fish are going to die".  "Salmon on the brink of extinction", work will destroy all the habitat. and environment. Its just one scare tactic after another. The area being worked when stretched out is equivalent to 20 weaver creek spawning channels.
Scare tactics and wild exaggerations, all designed to scare Joe public to blindly support the enviro cause without fully looking into all the facts.

Then these are applied in various forms to anybody daring to do any development or work near any stream anywhere in the world.

In the past humans were out of control and created huge environmental problems and developed without thinking, not doubt there. However now we have gone the complete opposite where nothing gets done  and huge delays occur in project development despite having reputable scientific and accurate work done on the projects which shows they can be completed in an environmentally friendly or even beneficial way.  It does not matter how much work gets done there are those radicals out there that just won't accept it as it dares to challenge there opinion.

Its time we brought back common sense to the development and not these wild exaggerations and fear mongering caused by the elite few who have their own personal drums to beat!!!

[chris gadsden]

Missed the point totally as usual.

Just try and get a paddle wheeler up the Fraser today. Duh!!

"News flash, shallowing of rivers happens.  It's nothing new, it's nothing to worry about.  Unless this material is highly toxic or radioactive, it is meant to be in the river and eventually make it out to the coast line. "

Had a good laugh at this statement.  Filling in rivers with gravel and silt is now ,nothing new. Guess you haven't heard of the Coquitlam River.

Its a good thing that I fully read lots and not just the parts I like.

As for the fatality is is not only irresponsible its completely in bad taste to use a fatality to forward ones own agenda.  Especially when one is not aware of the full facts surrounding it.

 I just love the woods used to describe things " some of the world's premier experts", whatabout the rest.   There are premier scientists in hydrology that are support and see the need for the gravel removal.

If these are the same premier scientists that produced the powerpoint presentation then they had better return their degrees.

Don't use scare tactics.  What a joke.  What about "Millions of fish are going to die".  "Salmon on the brink of extinction", work will destroy all the habitat. and environment. Its just one scare tactic after another. The area being worked when stretched out is equivalent to 20 weaver creek spawning channels.
Scare tactics and wild exaggerations, all designed to scare Joe public to blindly support the enviro cause without fully looking into all the facts.

Then these are applied in various forms to anybody daring to do any development or work near any stream anywhere in the world.

In the past humans were out of control and created huge environmental problems and developed without thinking, not doubt there. However now we have gone the complete opposite where nothing gets done  and huge delays occur in project development despite having reputable scientific and accurate work done on the projects which shows they can be completed in an environmentally friendly or even beneficial way.  It does not matter how much work gets done there are those radicals out there that just won't accept it as it dares to challenge there opinion.

Its time we brought back common sense to the development and not these wild exaggerations and fear mongering caused by the elite few who have their own personal drums to beat!!!

I suggest you goggle "Big Bar Gravel Fish Kill 2006" and maybe you will change your opinion about the wild exaggerations and fear mongering you refer too. I would be interested on your remarks about what went on here in 2006.

I can tell you first hand if it was not for the work of  "an elite few" that were monitoring Spring Bar this year things would have been a lot worse as once again pink and chum redds would have been dewatered. The designed bridge to access the bar was increased 2 fold in lenght to prevent this dewatering.

[Rodney]

Posting these from today for Chris. His report to come.

[chris gadsden]

Thanks Rodney for posting the pictures.
A few of us made a trip up to Spring Bar on the Fraser River for a TV shoot with Shaw TV this afternoon. The purpose was to give the Ad Hoc committees perspective on this gravel excavation project that the Provincial Government has been promoting as a good thing to do for flood protection.

When one travels up the river and sees the size of the Fraser it is laughable that anyone would say by digging the hole you see in one of the photo it will help in flood protection. Of course anyone that has followed this story closely this year will realize that those that know anything about river hydraulics have been presenting the science behind my previous statement. Many have read the power point presentation giving all this science. I must add, you and I repeat you could never have enough equipment or resources to take enough gravel from this huge river to do one bit of good as far as flood control.

Then it is all the prime fish habitat that has and is being destroyed by this and other gravel excavation projects that is really disturbing. The Provincial Ministry of the Environment as well as FOC are allowing this to happen and they should be ashamed of themselves. I feel it is not the government's staff who are to blame but it is because some politicans are controlling things by silencing or shuffle off those that that go against what some elected officials want hear and do. Something is wrong here and I am glad so many organizations have joined together to try to change things. We all know what people power did with the Pitt River proposed Run of The River project.

This project is nothing more than a gravel grab for the money that can be made by some.

Thanks to all the took part today with special thanks to Great River Fishing Adventures including Dean and Ryan our boat captain who provided the jet boat for the afternoon. I am glad to be part of a group that gives so freely of their time trying to protect our fish for the future, it certainly is not an easy task let me tell you.


PS
Note the piers in one photo that were left in after the bridge structure was removed. I guess they will be coming back again for more gravel in the years ahead. This could be a bit of a boat hazard as well as catching a drift net or two. Maybe the freshet will wash them out.

[chris gadsden]

All valley residents should get behind this gravel removal
The Province
Published: Monday, February 11, 2008
A huge gravel-removal operation on the Fraser River near Agassiz and the Seabird Island native reserve is being criticized by a small group of environmentalists.
Their target is the extraction of 400,000 cubic metres of gravel, now under way to reduce the risks of flooding from the Fraser's annual spring run-off.
They're saying it will lead to a fish kill similar to one in 2006 in which millions of pink salmon hatchlings were destroyed in a nearby site (where about 50,000 cubic metres of gravel were removed).
The 400,000 metres of gravel currently being taken from Spring Bar represent about five per cent of the bar's total area, which is about half the size of Stanley Park.
The work is being done now because the gravel slated for removal is above the Fraser's water level, which will be much higher when the upcountry snows melt later this spring.
As Seabird Island Chief Clem Seymour points out, taking the gravel out of the bar will divert the fast-flowing river away from his reserve's shoreline.
Over the past few years, the native community has lost about 480 hectares of its land to river erosion caused by gravel buildup.
And like other Fraser Valley communities, Seabird Island faces serious flooding threats each spring from the rising, fast-moving waters.
The band and a private contractor are doing the work with the help of the B.C. government, which has provided $564,000 to build a temporary bridge to the gravel-removal site and has waived its usual royalty fee.
The federal fisheries department has also issued a gravel-removal permit. Indeed, everyone involved has learned a few lessons from the 2006 fiasco, the department says.
For example, the temporary bridge has been designed so water flowing underneath it benefits downstream salmon-nesting sites.
Full-time environmental monitoring is also taking place while the work is being done.
Yet, the hard-core environmentalists won't let the issue go and insist that, in effect, the sky is falling.
That's not the case.
The various levels of government and the Seabird Island natives are doing the job properly, with due respect for the environment and with the aim of protecting both people and property.
For this, they are to be congratulated -- not scorned by those who seem to have an unduly pessimistic view of what humans can achieve when they work together.

[Nicole]

Hard core environmentalists? The sky is falling? Jesus Louise!

What a garbage article, talk about poor pensmanship.

Chris I told you not to wear that Patchouli to the last meeting!

 
Nicole

[chris gadsden]

Hard core environmentalists? The sky is falling? Jesus Louise!

What a garbage article, talk about poor pensmanship.

Chris I told you not to wear that Patchouli to the last meeting!

 
Nicole

Yes the article is full of holes, excuse the pun.
The hard core environmentalists are still working on this.
The last few days the power point presentation has been shown and discussed with the Sports Fishing Advisory Board on Vancouver Island and at the BC Wildlife Federation annual meeting in Salmon Arm.

With the resignation British Columbia's Solicitor General a couple of weeks ago we now be dealing with his replacement. Of course John Les was one of the main advocates of gravel removal on The Fraser River, maybe the new John will have a different opinion.

We also have asked for a meeting with the Environment Minister to discuss this file as he should be working to prevent the loss of Fish Habitat not destroying it.

[Nicole]

Hmm, John Les, a land developer, supporter of gravel removal?

Who woulda thunk? I hope he rots in prison.

 
Nicole