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[Terry D]

Just to throw in my penny's-worth.  If we want to show how concerned we are as anglers and conservationists, then WE should be telling 'the powers that be' that we are not going to carry out any survey involving the catching of sockeye given the current water temperatures.  The fish are under enough stress already without us doing this survey when the water temperatures are so high.  Not only that, the data collected will always be suspect!

[firstlight]

That will be the day when i go out to a river to prove that flossing is ok.
This whole thing stinks.
Why does the Government hand out contracts and then have the contractor  using volunteers to do the leg work.
Is this contractor Volunteering there time also?Na,didnt think so.
Milo,ive seen you at this game now for years.
Ive aslo seen your tune change to fit the dance and its getting a little old.
Remember when you stood vehemently behind the Sockeye are biting the wool camp and then once that theory was shot all to heck you jumped onto the this is only a harvest bandwagon.
Along with many others that feel the need to snag fish this is now apperently an ok way to fish for Chinook now also.
I dont believe in your sky is falling BS either.

[milo]

Can't resist taking shots at me, eh, Bruce? 
Sure, I'd been deluded into thinking sockeye bite - haven't we all?

As for changing my stance over the years, nothing wrong with that in my books. It reflects an angler's new understanding of issues.
I stand by what I've said before: if the numbers are good, let all recreational angler's have at it. If not, close the darn river altogether.

Flossing a fish is no different from feeding it guts anyways.
Both take some effort and little skill, and it makes no difference to the fish. 

Anyway, keep shooting, Bruce - I sure make your online life more interesting, don't I?
And BTW, sincere congrats on the new job, but it sure cuts down on your online time, eh?

Have fun this summer.
I am soon off to Europe with my son, but I will be back in time for the peak of the salmon season. Don't worry, I won't be flossing, at least not deliberately. 

[bbronswyk2000]

I have not bottom bounced in over 6 or 7 years. I learned that they didnt bite so I stopped. Do I believe they should ban bottom bouncing on the Fraser? Nope I dont. If any of you seriously think that sporties are making any kind of dent in the sockeye populations your crazy. The few fish they take is a drop in the bucket. Like Milo said we all need to come together and stop debating this stupid topic.

If the river temps go above 20 degrees they need to completely close the river to EVERYONE!!! And enforce it.

They are calling for a cooling trend so lets hope that it brings down the rivers temperature.

[firstlight]

I dont understand the close the river idea?
Lets just close the Sockeye fishery and get back to the river and type of fishing  we had for all those years before this disgusting and harmfull way of snagging took place.
 
There is no need to close the river if people arent targeting Sockeye,but if they continue to fish this way then yes we stand the chance of the river being closed to all and that would be a real shame.

Milo,im not taking shots at you buddy,im just on the opposite side of the fence on this issue and wont sit here and take some the crap that some are trying to shovel out.
So dont take it personal and it doesnt matter who posts on this subject ,my views will never change in regards to snagging
As far as the new job goes,thanks for the congrats.Im really liking it and i actually have more time off than i ever did. ;
Have a nice trip to Europe.

[chris gadsden]

From the daily today. I found the caption under the picture interesting. It said, "Sockeye salmon with wounds that indicate snagging or flossing by sports fisherman are being spotted upriver by First Nations observers."


As a number of us having being saying those that contiue this activity during a period of concern and low sockeye returns could be  causing the river to be closed to us all. Lets hope most will cease this activity before it is too late.

Chris



Halt sport fishery to save sockeye: Crey
 
Sports fishing on the Fraser River.
Tyrone McNeil



Published: July 31, 2009 4:17 PM
Updated: August 04, 2009 10:42 AM

Sport angling on the Fraser River should be shut down quickly to prevent a catastrophe for returning sockeye salmon, says Sto:lo fisheries advisor Ernie Crey.

Anglers on the river aren't currently allowed to target sockeye, but some catch them either accidentally or deliberately by snagging them while officially fishing for other species, like sturgeon or chinook salmon.

Crey says the species can't afford to take any more hits this season in light of what's already shaping up to be a low return, coupled with dangerously high river temperatures that may kill many of the sockeye that do arrive before they can spawn.

"DFO should, with some reasonable notice, tell anglers to get off the water until we get a better understanding of the sockeye numbers overall," Crey said.

Biologists had forecast a healthy run of 10.6 million sockeye this summer, but so far the Pacific Salmon Commission says the runs are all coming in much lower than expected.

The commission warned the hot dry weather and low stream flows in the Interior may prove deadly to returning sockeye.

The river reached a temperature of 20.7 degrees on July 30 – 3.4 degrees higher than normal and above the 20-degree threshold that triggers high death rates in salmon.

And it's projected the water temperature may climb further to 21.4 degrees by Aug. 8 – a record for that date.

The last time the water got this hot, Crey says he witnessed disoriented sockeye swimming around in circles that could easily be picked up by hand.

"They made no effort to swim away," he said. "Their instinct for survival was completely sapped by the warm river water."

Commercial fishing has so far been blocked and aboriginal food fisheries remain closed after a very brief opening earlier in July.

Crey said he doesn't believe there can reasonably be new openings for any sector unless counts of returning sockeye improve dramatically.

Wayne Goeson, an area director with the B.C. Federation of Drift Fishers,

agreed the sockeye plight this year is a huge concern.

"Rule number one is get the fish on the spawning beds," he said.

But Goeson said he doesn't believe a general angling closure on the lower Fraser is necessary to protect sockeye.

"As long as people aren't targeting sockeye, it shouldn't be a problem," he said.

[Steelhawk]

Once again, another anti bbing thread by the absolute minority of fishermen out there and the bashing game begins.

Once again, the 'me-right-you-wrong' attitude and jam-down-your-throat approach. Pretty soon those bb haters from another site will come in with out right shaming of the bb fishing brothers. What else is new?

On the one hand, if you bbing, they tell you that even if the study showed a low mortality rate, you as sporties should protect every sockeye, as if killing the few fish accidentally is horrible in the big picture of the fish stock. But when you point out that their bf method kill sockeyes too, they say Nay, it doesn't happen or happen enough (hey wasn't there a soc in a recent post caught by bf). Now there is no worry about killing that precious sockeye by bf. In reality, they are more keen on bonking you on the head on bbing than the real issue of protecting the fish stock or protecting river ecology. These are bb haters, man. They are not interested on discussing the big picture, but instead it is about ethics, their form of fishing ethics.

And then they justify their beloved method of bar fishing as if it is saintly. Give me a break. If you question the survival rate of sockeyes caught by bbers, each of those sockeyes hooked by barfishing will die by the mere fact that the fish has to fight pulling the 1 lb weight instead of a 2-3 oz betty. Every oz of their energy reserve depleted, how can they survive? Also, each of those heavy lead slab they throw in the river pollutes the near-shore water mightily for any fish habitat while bbers are known to retrieve those lead betties snagged up. Some betties are coated in plastic, so lead discharge will be minimized or gradual. But I have not seen those lead slabs ever coated. And they are all within 30-40 ft from shore where flow is slower and the impact on near-shore water ecology can be questionable.

When you bf guys cast the heavy lead weights, you are landing most weights much closer to shore than bbers, directly into the travel lane of sockeyes. How do you know your lead bombs don't knock those sockeyes silly, don't disrupt their navigational system, or don't kill them if they get hit right on the head? How do you know for sure your method is that safe during time when you think every sockeye counts. Stop fishing man. Can't you do that for the fish?

Of course, the problem is this me-right-you-wrong and holier-than-thou attitude. You can keep fishing and we can't, that is what is at stake. For that I say, my friend, Milo is right. If we are out, you are out too. Don't kid yourself if you think FN will leave you guys alone. So what if you do succeed to shut us out only, and if that day comes, you will find your secluded spots over-crowded with fishermen forced to fish your style, or you can't have a spot anymore when you take yout time and arrive late. But frankly, I can't even imagine what will happen to the Fraser near-shore ecology when there are another few more thousand new bf converts chucking those unretrievable heavy lead slabs into the Fraser daily.  You think your beloved fishing method will stand a chance if environmentalists start raising the issue in the public media, or when PETA does a video on YouTube on what cruelty a poor smallish sockeye has to fight 'evil' men & their big lead slabs while they are endangered?  Good luck out there. 

[alwaysfishn]

"Sport angling on the Fraser River should be shut down quickly to prevent a catastrophe for returning sockeye salmon", says Sto:lo fisheries advisor Ernie Crey.

This is their agenda......   Ernie isn't concerned about fishermen using the bottom bouncing method to catch chinooks, he wants all sport fishermen off the river! Let not be delusional in thinking if we all fish with bar rods that we'll suddenly be welcome on the river.

I'm also wondering how the FN observers can be seeing "sockeye salmon with wounds that indicate snagging or flossing by sports fishermen" when they haven't had a fisheries opening since earlier in July  

[Rodney]

... when they haven't had a fisheries opening since earlier in July  

There have been several First Nation sockeye fishery opening on the Fraser River since July.

Plenty of misinformation throughout the thread as the usual by the same participants every year. Not sure why people are willing to expend so much time on typing out the same thing, especially when most of the participants are annonymous. Want to make a difference? Regardless your point of view, join a sportfishing group, attend meetings, be properly informed, develop ideas and put them to use.

[Steelhawk]

Yes, interesting. AF is right on the money. Something fishy indeed. Also, we little sporties with one barbless hook can cause catastrophe to the Sockeyes? What an honour? Don't even know we are that influential. Factually, per bb trip this year so far, I either didn't see any sockeye hooked, or very few hook ups compared to springs. If the survival rate of the study is any indication, then the impact to the stock should be negligible. As far as I know, sporties - 0 sockeye kept, FN & others 30,000+ sockeyes killed plus more to come, and we are the one to cause catastrophe to sockeyes. Give me a break, man. Even bb haters should have smarter heads to know the statement is a joke.  

As for the debate issue. Yes it is a waste of time here. But when the other camp has started firing shots and repeating the bashing game, we just have to respond in kind. Just the nature of us mortals. 

[milo]

Once again, another anti bbing thread by the absolute minority of fishermen out there and the bashing game begins.

Once again, the 'me-right-you-wrong' attitude and jam-down-your-throat approach. Pretty soon those bb haters from another site will come in with out right shaming of the bb fishing brothers. What else is new?

On the one hand, if you bbing, they tell you that even if the study showed a low mortality rate, you as sporties should protect every sockeye, as if killing the few fish accidentally is horrible in the big picture of the fish stock. But when you point out that their bf method kill sockeyes too, they say Nay, it doesn't happen or happen enough (hey wasn't there a soc in a recent post caught by bf). Now there is no worry about killing that precious sockeye by bf. In reality, they are more keen on bonking you on the head on bbing than the real issue of protecting the fish stock or protecting river ecology. These are bb haters, man. They are not interested on discussing the big picture, but instead it is about ethics, their form of fishing ethics.

And then they justify their beloved method of bar fishing as if it is saintly. Give me a break. If you question the survival rate of sockeyes caught by bbers, each of those sockeyes hooked by barfishing will die by the mere fact that the fish has to fight pulling the 1 lb weight instead of a 2-3 oz betty. Every oz of their energy reserve depleted, how can they survive? Also, each of those heavy lead slab they throw in the river pollutes the near-shore water mightily for any fish habitat while bbers are known to retrieve those lead betties snagged up. Some betties are coated in plastic, so lead discharge will be minimized or gradual. But I have not seen those lead slabs ever coated. And they are all within 30-40 ft from shore where flow is slower and the impact on near-shore water ecology can be questionable.

When you bf guys cast the heavy lead weights, you are landing most weights much closer to shore than bbers, directly into the travel lane of sockeyes. How do you know your lead bombs don't knock those sockeyes silly, don't disrupt their navigational system, or don't kill them if they get hit right on the head? How do you know for sure your method is that safe during time when you think every sockeye counts. Stop fishing man. Can't you do that for the fish?

Of course, the problem is this me-right-you-wrong and holier-than-thou attitude. You can keep fishing and we can't, that is what is at stake. For that I say, my friend, Milo is right. If we are out, you are out too. Don't kid yourself if you think FN will leave you guys alone. So what if you do succeed to shut us out only, and if that day comes, you will find your secluded spots over-crowded with fishermen forced to fish your style, or you can't have a spot anymore when you take yout time and arrive late. But frankly, I can't even imagine what will happen to the Fraser near-shore ecology when there are another few more thousand new bf converts chucking those unretrievable heavy lead slabs into the Fraser daily.  You think your beloved fishing method will stand a chance if environmentalists start raising the issue in the public media, or when PETA does a video on YouTube on what cruelty a poor smallish sockeye has to fight 'evil' men & their big lead slabs while they are endangered?  Good luck out there. 

Very interesting post and definitely some good food for thought.
It would be interesting to see if an objective barfer can write a rebuttal to the above.

I would like to add that I have witnessed a disturbing practice by some barfers: they tie their heavy lead weight on with a thin line (4# test) so that they can easily break it off when they set a hook on a fish and then fight the fish without the inconvenience of the lead weight. I hope it is not common practice. With the price of lead these days it is not only very environmentally unfriendly, but also bloody expensive.
I hope it is not standard practice.

[firstlight]

No it isnt standard practice.
Those that fish this way usually use a railway spike or some other non-lead material.
I was also a little shocked to see this on Rods video.

[alwaysfishn]

Quote from: alwaysfishn on Today at 04:51:52 PM
... when they haven't had a fisheries opening since earlier in July   

There have been several First Nation sockeye fishery opening on the Fraser River since July.

Plenty of misinformation throughout the thread as the usual by the same participants every year. Not sure why people are willing to expend so much time on typing out the same thing, especially when most of the participants are annonymous. Want to make a difference? Regardless your point of view, join a sportfishing group, attend meetings, be properly informed, develop ideas and put them to use.

I was quoting from the newspaper article posted by Chris. 

"Commercial fishing has so far been blocked and aboriginal food fisheries remain closed after a very brief opening earlier in July."

[Rodney]

Newspapers provide second hand information and at times it is incorrect, such as in this case.

Communal openings for sockeye salmon in the Lower Fraser First Nations have been happening weekly for several weeks now. Most of the catches have been from the last two weeks, not early July.

[Funeral Of Hearts]

Want to make a difference? Regardless your point of view, join a sportfishing group, attend meetings, be properly informed, develop ideas and put them to use.

Well said.