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[SnaggedADuck]

Do pacific salmon cross breed at all? coho - spring - pink for example physically look similiar.  I read some fellow mention springs and pinks crossing to be a pinook but i didnt know if that was a joke.

[Every Day]

I dont know if different species cross bread. The only fish I know of that cross bread are white and red springs. This is why the Vedder gets "marble springs."

[milo]

I dont know if different species cross bread. The only fish I know of that cross bread are white and red springs. This is why the Vedder gets "marble springs."

Hey, ED, whoever told you that story was pulling your leg. Marbled chinook are not the result of red and white springs' 'interbreeding'.
The phenomenon of different coloration has to do with the absorption of carotenoid pigments.

I recently asked a fishery biologist about these fish and he told me that marbled springs are in reality your usual chinook salmon that have a recessive genetic feature, something about having limited ability to absorb carotenoids, specifically astaxanthin, which is found in shrimp, krill and many other salmon food sources. The result is a fish with some red flesh (usually closer to the backbone) and some white flesh (usually towards the edges).

Red-fleshed springs process this carotenoid pigment without any problem, and as a result, their flesh is nicely coloured throughout.

White-fleshed springs, OTOH, can't absorb astaxanthin at all - resulting in the white flesh. White chinook are actually quite rare out of BC. AFAIK, only the Harrison run (transplanted to the Vedder) has a predominantly white population.

Curiously, white-fleshed chinook are VERY much in demand in the US because they are rare - they constitute only about 1 percent of the total chinook population. It seems that some high end restaurants in the US are willing to pay premium prices for white-fleshed chinook, or as they call them "ivory kings".

This "marbling' of salmon flesh is mostly found in chinook salmon, but it has been observed in other species, particularly chum, albeit on a much lower scale. I have yet to undig a picture of a chum I caught in the Squamish a couple years ago. One fillet was almost white, the other was as red as that of a coho.

Anyway, to make a long story short, marbled-fleshed springs are marbled because of a genetic predisposition, not because they had one red and one white parent.

Cheers,

Milo

edited to add: red, white, or marbled - they are the same species!

[canoe man]

its all in the marketing 
cnm

[Terry D]

Just for info, there is quite a lot of cross breeding between coarse fish in the UK and Europe.  Roach/rudd/bream regularly interbreed as do carp and goldfish.  It has now reached the stage where the British Record Fish Committee are looking at introducing DNA testing of fish to verify their true identity when claiming a record.  I don't see any reason why it should be any different for the salmon and trout varieties when they are spawning together.

[frenchy]

Anyway, to make a long story short, marbled-fleshed springs are marbled because of a genetic predisposition, not because they had one red and one white parent.

Actually, to be marble you need to have one white allele (call it W) from a parent and one red (call it R) from another (unless there is some recurent mutation going on, which may happen from time to time).
a red fish has a genotypes RR, a white fish is WW, and a marble fish is WR. So a marble fish either have a red and a white parent (all the offsprings are marble), one marble parent and one white parent (1/2 of the offspring is marble, the other half is white), or one red parent and one marble parent (1/2 of the offspring is marble and 1/2 is red), two marble parents (1/4 red, 1/4 white, and 1/2 marble).
You are right, it is some intraspecific polymorphism.


Talking about hybridization, it seems that there is some rare natural hybridization between cohos and chinooks and between chums and pinks.
 

[Nicole]

One hybrid that I remember seeing was the Pinook... A cross between a pink and a chinook.



Cheers,
Nicole

[Sam Salmon]

One hybrid that I remember seeing was the Pinook... A cross between a pink and a chinook.

For some reason they have more of those in some parts of the Great Lakes.

Thank to everyone for the info on Whites/Marbles.

[adriaticum]

Hey milo, I believe the scientist who told you that this is genetic could be right. Partially.

I was VERY interested in this "MARBLE MEAT" thing.  There was a post on this already.
This is my first season on the Vedder in September so I was curious.
Here is what I concluded.

I've been catching spings on the Vedder for the past 3 weekends regularly and always bringing home a couple, 1 adult and 1 or 2 jacks.
Now 3 weeks ago the fish I caught were almost purely red meat, little tinge of white or none.
Suddenly 2 weeks ago they are turning whiter and whiter. Even jacks. All from the same spot on the river. They all look chrome from the outside.
I had the misfortune of trying one of these half and half springs and they taste like garbage. The red portion tastes somewhat ok and the white is GARBAGE.

BASICALLY THESE FISH ARE SPOILING AND AS THEY ARE GOING BAD THEIR MEAT IS WHITER AND WHITER.

Show me an ocean caught marble spring...

They are all red springs that are going bad and should not be eaten, as far as I am concerned.
I felt bad for killing these fish.
This year the runs are late and these springs are the red springs you would usually catch in July and August.

I believe guys that sleep on the Vedder know this and they don't catch these fish.

Now it may be that as they are spending more time in the river they absorb less and less pigment as you suggest from their food.
But that is probably because there is no food in the river that they mostly feed on. Herring, krill, squid, shrimp etc.

Now my conclusion may be wrong,
but I will leave the springs for the bears..

[SnaggedADuck]

One hybrid that I remember seeing was the Pinook... A cross between a pink and a chinook.



Cheers,
Nicole

how would you identify a pinook? has completely black mouth with an enormous pink hump?

[Every Day]

BASICALLY THESE FISH ARE SPOILING AND AS THEY ARE GOING BAD THEIR MEAT IS WHITER AND WHITER.

This weekned I got a white jack spring AND a marble jack spring. Both jacks still had sea lice on them. These sea lice will usually fall off the fish within 48 hours of entering fresh water. Also sea lice tend to change colour when they come from salt water in the fresh water, turning from clear (in salt) to a darker colour in the fresh water. Both of these fish had CLEAR sea lice on them. So unless fish start spoiling in the ocean too, these are a unique breed or speices, whatever the case may be.

I also got a red the same day. The red was no where near as clean as the jacks (but still was completely chrome) and had bright orange/red meat just like a coho would. It was in the river way longer than the jacks were but the meat was still red, so by your theory the meat should be white or going white.

Thanks Milo for the correction, learned something new today 

[BigCoho]

I have cought a coho/spring in the chehalis river

[DionJL]

mmmmroe caught a chinook/coho on the chehalis last season too.

[milo]

BASICALLY THESE FISH ARE SPOILING AND AS THEY ARE GOING BAD THEIR MEAT IS WHITER AND WHITER.
Show me an ocean caught marble spring...

Sorry, Adriaticum, but you conclusions are erroneous.

If you come to my house, I will show you not one, but two ocean caught marbles. They are cut in steaks, however.
IronNoggin, who is a Marine biologist and was our guide on my recent ocean trip out of Ucluelet, was the skipper that got us into those fish.
If he reads this, he will confirm to you that yes, indeed, there are marbled springs in the ocean (as there are whites among mostly reds).

The reason you are finding more and more whites in the Vedder is that this is a different strain making its way into the river - its' the fall fish, as opposed to early spring fish, which are predominantly red, and mostly done by now. The whites are Harrison fish which were hatchery introduced to the Vedder. And this particular strain is famous (or infamous) for its white flesh. If you intercept one of these fish in the Charlottes, it will still be white.

Also, the red springs have different degrees of redness, varying from very intense, almost coho-like orange, to a subtle light pink.
It has nothing to do with spoiling, but with how well they absorb carotenoids. Also, the diet of the fish dictates to an extent how red they will be Granted, it may be true that a red-fleshed spring might not be as intense red after spawning, but it WON'T turn white.

I hope this clears up your confusion.

Cheers,

Milo

[adriaticum]

Thanks Milo,

your argument is convincing, especially if you have caught them in the ocean and they are marbled.

After long searching I finally did find one article that adds to your argument and shows a picture of a marbled chinook and explaining that they come from our waters.

http://www.slowfoodusa.org/index.php/programs/ark_product_detail/washington_marbled_chinook_salmon/

Unfortunately they taste awful.

Cheers,
Adriaticum