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[Morty]

Whatever they did for Snow Geese worked pretty well.

[bentrod]

BWIBWI,
not keeping distinct population segments "distinct" will shut down a hatchery in Washington.  Too many hatchery strays up a different river will put a hatchery in hot water.  Also, if hatchery fish are suspected of bypassing the hatchery and spawning with natives in the river, the hatchery can face penalties and be forced to correct the situation.  Genetic diversity, distinct population segments and evolutionary significant units are not taken lightly in the US. 

[BwiBwi]

Both countries would do for rivers that still has hope in rebuilding by itself your right they do try to keep it as natural as possible and aid by building spawning channel and/or enhance river environment.  But for those river that has very little chance of rebuilding on it's own, US government has no problem with installing and rearing lots of hatchery fish.  In comparison Canada isn't doing much to increase production.  As far as strays it is not as common upon salmon and in the higher latitude rivers.  But is more common in California and also more common for steelheads.

[Eagleye]

American believe in hatchery supplement.  Canadian government believe in keeping gene pool variety.

Actually genetic variety isn't really negatively affected by hatchery operations that use the strains of fish from the waters the hatcheries operate on. From what I've learned about hatchery methods, they don't use the returning hatchery fish for breeding, this essentially guarantees that you don't lock in on any particular variants in the population they are working with. Although I'm pretty certain that there are still hatchery fish that manage to make it to spawn, and I doubt that there is any discrimination in breeding between the wild born fish and the hatchery ones when they are on the redds. I doubt very much that this is a cause for concern for the genetic variety that results from that, it is more likely to enhance the variation.

I think the main reason that our Federal and Provincial gov'ts have cut back on hatcheries in BC is because they are cheap SOBs.

From what I understand the problem is that the fish are shielded from natural selection early on in their lives.  How much of a difference this makes I think is negligible.

[Steelhawk]

Less hatchery production, less returners in the river. Americans flood their rivers with fish and ours are the other way. Still remember the Expo years when the Cap was loaded with coho. Used to go after high tide and saw runs and runs of coho and patches of blue shades all over the river. Now the Cap is sort of like an abandoned ghost town. The Vedder used to see thick waves of coho going by all day long. Now the number is soooo low too. Whatever happen to our fishery people? The license fees have climbed through the years and the fish getting less and less. I guess the money all go towards some fat pension or wage increase than the fish.    No wonder why license sales is declining year after year. People are no dummies and will not buy a product or an entertainment unless it is worth the money.

[bbronswyk2000]

Less hatchery production, less returners in the river. Americans flood their rivers with fish and ours are the other way. Still remember the Expo years when the Cap was loaded with coho. Used to go after high tide and saw runs and runs of coho and patches of blue shades all over the river. Now the Cap is sort of like an abandoned ghost town. The Vedder used to see thick waves of coho going by all day long. Now the number is soooo low too. Whatever happen to our fishery people? The license fees have climbed through the years and the fish getting less and less. I guess the money all go towards some fat pension or wage increase than the fish.    No wonder why license sales is declining year after year. People are no dummies and will not buy a product or an entertainment unless it is worth the money.

License fees have climbed? You show me where they have climbed much at all? Seems to me with this post and the post about increasing chum limits on another thread you are only thinking of yourself. For a freshwater license and salmon tag you are paying just over $50/year. If you retained 10 salmon in a year you are getting one heck of a deal for your money. Than because you have the freshwater license you can also retain lots of trout as well. Seems to me someone is being a bit greedy....Your freshwater license puts all those trout in all the lakes. Go to http://www.gofishbc.com/stockingreports/default.htm and see where your money is going. Over 500 lakes were stocked this year. What more do you want for $50?

[Steelhawk]

I don't want to get personal and I hope you do the same. If you think the fees had not climbed, where were you 20 years ago? Fishing were phenomenal and fees were much lower. I don't have a good memory, but there were no extra fees for salmon & steelhead. I think the total fees (with everything included) must have doubled.  It is plain truth that the stocking and fishery budget has been cut years after years. The low coho run is probably due to the cut of 600k smolts a few years back. Unless somebody wants to be DFO spokeman, I don't think DFO's track record is worth defending.    Hey, it is not a sin to defend the right of average fisherman to say the Vedder should have equal quota for chum as other systems just for the sake of comparison. I am not a elitist or a c/r specialist. If somebody wants to be one, be my guest. To each its own. It is important to respect forum member's fishing preferrences as long as they are fishing legally. Some people like to eat fish, have a big family and would keep or strive to fish for the quota. Some don't eat fish or eat little so they don't want to keep the quota. Just respect that.There is a tendency of holier-than thou attitude here. I don't think it is necessary. As long as people are fishing legally and the fish are hatchery origin, what is so wrong about taking the daily quota if you have the skill to do so? These are mostly hatchery augmented fishery and there is no need to pretend otherwise. If we want to talk about conservation, then the discussion should be about the wild system like coquihalla, Thompson, the Gold, etc. Just my 2 cents.

[bbronswyk2000]

I wont make it personal just giving my opinion.

So the Vedder should have increased hatchery production? Thats interesting. You do know all the anglers in BC who buy licenses are paying for that hatchery right? So what about the rest of the rivers in BC? I think for the money we are paying its not so bad. Their are other reasons that those hatchery fish are not returning. Look at ocean survival. Its on a huge downward trend in the last 10 years.

Now for your point about licenses increasing. It has increased in the last 20 years but you tell me something that has not increased in the last 20 years. Do you think the hatcheries require more or the same amount of money they required 20 years ago? Do you not think with technological advances that it has not cost them more money? Do you remember when a can of pop was .25 cents? Now that same can is $1.50. Gas twenty years ago was like .30 cents a liter, now its a $1.00/liter. Everything has gone up. How do you expect the costs of licenses to stay the same as they were 20 years ago? They have not even gone up at the same rate of inflation. We are lucky to have them at the prices they are. One thing I well never complain about is the prices of licenses.

[Steelhawk]

I don't think I ever mention about increase in hatchery production, did I? How about just keeping the old production. Factually, I think it has reduced production drastically, particularly in coho and steelhead which are the more expensive species to raise compared to the chum. Those 600k coho smolts cut a few years back, if stocked, could have 10K or 20K more adult coho in the Vedder and coho fishing should have been much better . But unfortunately there were cut. lThis in face of increased license fees is not something that is fair and right. If a business does that, it will not be a viable business model, but we all know DFO is a monopoly.  Yes, everything has gone up (surely DFO wages & benefits), but in the real world, a product has to be enhanced to be worth the increase fees to survive. The Honda civic of today has way more improvement of its counterpart 20 years ago, so it justifies the increase. Not so about our fishing... it has gone way down.

This whole discussion is about comparison, including my thread about chum quota which tries to compare Vedder to other systems. I don't think license fees here in Canada is expensive compared to Europe. But hey, there are places in the world where you can fish without a license. I just got back from Hawaii where a tourist don't need a license to fish. Tell that to the American tourists who want to fish here.  So I don't think we need to use that argument that our fees are low. It is just a comparative discussion that cutting fish production while increasing fees is not reasonable. Perhaps a lot of the money has gone into administrative & wage expenses of DFO and not where it should be. If you don't think so, I respect that but respectfully disagree. Perhaps DFO should open their books for all to see where the money went. But we know this won't ever happen. I will just leave it at that and there is no more I can say.

[Morty]

Thanks guys - you've brought this full circle right back to the intended topic - fish stocks are WAY DOWN!!!

What are YOU going to DO about it ??

[Steelhawk]

John Cummings for Fishery Minister. 

[BwiBwi]

http://www.natureandliving.com/Salmon/Salmonreleased.htm

Less than favourable ocean survival and reduced hatchery output sure makes returns look worst than ever.

[Morty]

"ocean survival"    WHAT A CROCK !!!

I guess those Alaskan fish spend their 2 or 3 years in a different, cooler Pacific Ocean than our fish do.
?

Fish Farm Gauntlet would be more accurate I believe.

[Steelhawk]

From the yearly stocking data of the Chilliwack River Hatchery, we know why this year's coho return is so dismal. The 2006 stocking was 800,000 less than 2005, and is only half of 2003. No wonder. Geez, the chum return has been 100k to 200k per year. If each fish has same survival rate in the ocean, then just think if we stock same # of coho smolts as chum. That will mean 100k to 200k coho swimming up the Vedder. Can you imagine what coho fishing will be like.    But too bad, it is the Americans who are doing that while we are cutting back year after year.

[bbronswyk2000]

From the yearly stocking data of the Chilliwack River Hatchery, we know why this year's coho return is so dismal. The 2006 stocking was 800,000 less than 2005, and is only half of 2003. No wonder. Geez, the chum return has been 100k to 200k per year. If each fish has same survival rate in the ocean, then just think if we stock same # of coho smolts as chum. That will mean 100k to 200k coho swimming up the Vedder. Can you imagine what coho fishing will be like.    But too bad, it is the Americans who are doing that while we are cutting back year after year.

Chum survival is higher than that of coho. Thats why so many tributaries release so many chum fry. Those tributaries need the nutrients. What were the numbers of coho released in 2004. Thats where this years fish came from.

Dont you think the Americans have more money than we do? Think of the population and think of how many licenses they sell. If we sold as many licenses as they did we would have more money like they do...

Why dont you write some letters and ask why they have been cutting back. Than you can come back on here and paste the response you get back. It could be an interesting response from them.