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[Sterling C]

If you don't want to listen to what I have to say then don't but to everyone else participating in this discussion please do not discount how important using a loop knot is.

If you caught 40 fish in a day then I would say that you were fishing a pretty easy lake where presentation isn't as important. I've fished lakes like that before, gets boring fast.

Some of the lakes I like to fish, subtle differences in presentation can mean the difference between one or two 16 inchers a day vs 10-12 fish averaging over 6lbs.

Just like any other type of fishing its always important to never overlook details. You always want to have as much going for you as possible.

[bbronswyk2000]

If you don't want to listen to what I have to say then don't but to everyone else participating in this discussion please do not discount how important using a loop knot is.

If you caught 40 fish in a day then I would say that you were fishing a pretty easy lake where presentation isn't as important. I've fished lakes like that before, gets boring fast.

Some of the lakes I like to fish, subtle differences in presentation can mean the difference between one or two 16 inchers a day vs 10-12 fish averaging over 6lbs.

Just like any other type of fishing its always important to never overlook details. You always want to have as much going for you as possible.

Unless you have an underwater camera where you see the same fish pass by the presentation without the loop knot and than take the one with the loop knot you cannot say either way.

You are also saying your way is right and my way is wrong. Its not the case and the proof is in the pudding. The loop knot works but it works no better with it than without it IMO. Your theory is also an opinion and not fact just as mine is. Although I did do a serious testing of both methods on purpose.

Its not an easy lake. Their are days where your lucky to catch one or two. I just had a magical day. My buddies beside me where not catching half the fish I did.

Also if you go back I did mention something.I said if it gives you confidence than by all means use it.

I have already discredited your theory about only small stupid fish taking this presentation so your not doing a very good job in this argument. Let me tell you something. Fish are STUPID!!! They have a brain the size of a pea. The day I stopped over analyzing fishing is the day I started catching more fish. Just find the fish and if you have any knowledge at all you will catch them.....

[Sterling C]

Unless you have an underwater camera where you see the same fish pass by the presentation without the loop knot and than take the one with the loop knot you cannot say either way.

Sorry, don't own an underwater camera. I don't have money to waste on expensive toys 

...But I have seen enough evidence to convince me of my beliefs. I'll get to this later in my post.

You are also saying your way is right and my way is wrong. Its not the case and the proof is in the pudding. The loop knot works but it works no better with it than without it IMO. Your theory is also an opinion and not fact just as mine is. Although I did do a serious testing of both methods on purpose.

Serious testing? Please elaborate...and try not to over embellish 

How is this for proof: I've fished chronies for several year. In the past I always enjoyed good success. Particularly on the easier lakes. Lots of high number day and with quite a few large fish mixed in (6-9lbs). This was all using a standard clinch knot (read I'm acknowledging a clinch knot will work). However, there was one trophy lake that was notoriously hard. I fished this lake about 6 times in the past and every time I'm only able to catch at most 5 fish with only one or two over 5lbs (smaller than average for this lake). A while back I was at this lake and was skunked on my first day of the trip. I talked to one of the other anglers on the lake who was enjoying good success and he recocmended I switch to a loop knot. Next three days I fished the lake and every day brought 10 to 12 fish to hand. Average fish was 5-7lbs, running up to 9lbs. None under 3lbs. We were rocking the lake so bad that people were following us around the lake. Only difference between day 1 and days 2-4 was switch knots.

Its not an easy lake. Their are days where your lucky to catch one or two. I just had a magical day. My buddies beside me where not catching half the fish I did.

If those fish aren't from an easy lake then your getting ripped off, cause they aren't really that impressive to me.

Also if you go back I did mention something.I said if it gives you confidence than by all means use it.

Agreed, confidence is everything.

I have already discredited your theory about only small stupid fish taking this presentation so your not doing a very good job in this argument. Let me tell you something. Fish are STUPID!!! They have a brain the size of a pea. The day I stopped over analyzing fishing is the day I started catching more fish. Just find the fish and if you have any knowledge at all you will catch them.....

You didn't disprove anything cause in my books those still count as small stupid fish.

If it was as easy as you are saying then everyone would get fish every time they went out. There is a good reason that 10% of the fishermen catch 90% of the fish.

If your ego won't allow you to listen to what I have to say then go over to flybc and talk to a guy like Tom Lamb who teaches chronie courses and see what he has to say on the matter.

[bbronswyk2000]

Tom Lam has taught me lots about chronie fishing.......I have fished right beside him and spoken to him on numerous occasions.

Those fish pics I posted are not from the 40 fish outing. They are all from different lakes. Also take in fact my hands are twice the size of yours None of those fish are under 20 inches. I wouldnt post some small fish.

[HOOK]

how many times have you brought in a chironie after a small strike or something and had it sitting crooked?? and be honest!!!

I started using the loop knots after getting frustrated having to bring in my fly after missed strikes to make sure it was sitting correctly, with a loop knot if they strike and miss then the fly just goes back to sitting perfectly the way it should be. NOW ! doesnt that mean more fishing and less screwing around?? I think so! 

[bbronswyk2000]

how many times have you brought in a chironie after a small strike or something and had it sitting crooked?? and be honest!!!

I started using the loop knots after getting frustrated having to bring in my fly after missed strikes to make sure it was sitting correctly, with a loop knot if they strike and miss then the fly just goes back to sitting perfectly the way it should be. NOW ! doesnt that mean more fishing and less screwing around?? I think so! 

It happens if I miss a strike and than I straighten it out.

How many times in the fall when its freezing cold has it been a pain in the butt tying that knot? And be honest

I am a lazy fisherman and I have already said this. I am also just getting Sterling going lol C'mon Biff you should know me by now why are you biting so hard on my posts LOL I do use the loop knot from time to time still but when lazy I dont use it and still catch fish. I am just saying that its not the most important thing when chronie fishing. Remember the original post is about lower mainland lakes. They are all stupid pellet fish.

I use the loop knot more on leeches under an indicator. The leech really needs the action even more so than the chronie. If you have a good chop on the water than its not needed as much. That chop will move any fly under the water.

[HOOK]

Wool gloves keep the hands warm  even when my hands are frozen i can still tie any knot that i need, it does make some a little trickier though but not impossible or really much more time consuming. And not all lower mainland lakes are full of stupid pellet fish ya know  there is a few trophy lakes within an hours drive of Vancouver.

[fishseeker]

Wool gloves keep the hands warm  even when my hands are frozen i can still tie any knot that i need, it does make some a little trickier though but not impossible or really much more time consuming. And not all lower mainland lakes are full of stupid pellet fish ya know  there is a few trophy lakes within an hours drive of Vancouver.

Lucky you.  I have enough trouble tying knots in the comfort of my own room let alone outside, in the wind and on a boat .  If the knot is easy, that is the one I am most likely to tie even if it is not the strongest.

The Loop knot is way over rated. I personally tested it last year on purpose. I used both. I caught just as many or more not using the loop knot. If its a confidence thing by all means use it but after testing it several times last year at different lakes it made no difference. 

Just my opinion but you are way off base with this one.
Loop knots allow your fly to hang perfectly vertically. Maybe small stupid fish don't care about this but the big boys sure do know the difference.

Bear in mind that I am talking about stocked lakes where the fish may not be that discriminating.  I will try the loop knot provided I can tie it just in case it increases my odds.  If I have any success I will try it both ways just to see if there is a difference.  I don't want to tie more complex knots than I have to.

It is perfectly acceptable to tie fluoro to mono. Use a blood knot or double/triple surgeon's knot. When Fluoro first came out it would cut the mono, but this is no longer the case.

With Fluoro of 6lb test or lighter a loop knot is not required. it is limp enough for the chironomid to sit right. Many good chironomiders (much more successful than me) don't want the added bulk of a loop knot above the fly.

Thanks Typhoon.  Good to know.

I like to connect the mono leader and fluro tippet by using a small swivel, which also acts as additional weight to get the fly down to the fishing depth more quickly.

Thanks Rodney, I really like that idea because I have never been great at tying lines together.

Thanks a lot guys I think I have all the answers I need.   Now I am just itching to get out on those lakes so I can put all this into practice - nothing is more satisfying than trying something new and seeing it work.

[trout80]

  I am suffering fly fishing for trout withdrawl  just like all of you.But at least this thread was a good read.

[bbronswyk2000]

I am suffering fly fishing for trout withdrawl  just like all of you.But at least this thread was a good read.

YUP big time!!!!

The little lake down the road from me is covered in a thin layer of ice. It will be a few weeks before I am back out there.

[mastercaster]

All I do is chironomid fish...usually to the tune of 60 or so times a year.  Can't remember using a sinking line in still water in the last 5 years.  You can find chironmids and/or blood worms in the water all season long.  Actually, I believe a fish's diet is comprised of more than 40% chronies but the exact figure will probably differ from lake to lake and area to area.  I don't trout fish on the coast so I have no idea of what the per centage is.

Last year I got the "loop smoop"line so I too decided to test it for myself.  BTW, until I went back to trying the clinch not for testing purposes the knot I use is the duncan loop...in fact, I use it for all sub surface applications.  Once you've tied it numerous times you can tie it just as fast as any knot and as stated earlier the only draw back is using more leader material in the end because you need to cut off the tags.  But the knot has to be done properly...I don't like the loop any bigger than an 1/8th of an inch in diameter but that's just me. 

I FULLY agree with Biffchan...smaller fish are a dime a dozen...if you want to fool larger fish (over 4 lbs.) the better the presentation the better your chances are.  To test the theory I went to a lake that I'm really dialed into. I anchored up in 3 different spots that I like.   For the two days I tested I set EVERYTHING up exactly the same way right down to using the same fly.  Over that two day period I hooked over 30 fish each day.  When the bite was really on where it seemed you couldn't do anything wrong my looped fly still out fished the other 3 to 1.  When the fishing slowed that number was closer to 4 to 1 which to me is the really proof in the putting.  After every half dozen fish hooked on the looped fly I would bring in both rods and switch flies with each other. After every dozen I would put on 2 new flies. There was one period where I hooked 11 in a row on the looped fly.

It was a pain in the butt switchin' back and forth for those two days but I did it for my own sake to finally find out for sure what I thought I had known..... and in so doing I DEFINITELY will stick with the duncan loop.

On another note I find the full sink line technique too boring for my liking.... just sitting there with a rod in each hand.  So unless I fish in water over 30 feet I'll continue to use a floating line with an extra long leader.  Like the loop knot...once you done it enough casting a long leader becomes less and less difficult.  The more you "get out" the easier it gets...pretty much like everything that involves learning a skill.



 

[lucky]

Mastercaster, thanks for the clarification on the loop knot. It would appear that using it IS a good idea, and it WILL increase catch rates despite what some of our internet "experts" have to say. 

In the past all Ive used is the clinch knot, but if there is something that will increase my odds of catching fish I will use it! I could see the loop being really helpful when fishing tiny chironimids in sizes 14 and smaller.

[bbronswyk2000]

Mastercaster, thanks for the clarification on the loop knot. It would appear that using it IS a good idea, and it WILL increase catch rates despite what some of our internet "experts" have to say. 

In the past all Ive used is the clinch knot, but if there is something that will increase my odds of catching fish I will use it! I could see the loop being really helpful when fishing tiny chironimids in sizes 14 and smaller.

Who said I was an "expert" I never claim to be one. If you ask anyone that fishes with me I call everything "luck" I have always been the "lucky" fisherman. I would always out fish all my friends and family. It has nothing to do with skill. Some guys just have "luck" and for some strange reason I always had it. I am the "lucky lazy " fisherman. All my fishing buddies know this. I really dont care how many fish I catch because if I did I would listen to the REAL experts who have given me advice over the years. Dont get me wrong their are times I do get serious and challenge myself and at that time I use what the "experts" have taught me.

Cheers
The " Lazy Lucky " Fisherman

[fishseeker]

I guess I am lazy but not that lucky so I am always having to think what I need to do to increase my odds.  Thats why I put so many questions on this forum.

Its all good info and I since fishing is not much of an option right now I will be practicing those Duncan knots some more.

[Sterling C]

Thanks for backing me on this one mastercaster. I guess I got a little carried away, but its just something that I truly believe in. 

You seem like a pretty knowledgeable lake fisherman. I would be more than happy to spend an afternoon on a lake with you should our paths ever cross.