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[chris gadsden]

When I went to the BBQ last week for Harper I talked to John Cummins as I said. I suggested as far as this F/N situation goes why does FOC not give them a number of fish what FOC feels they should have and need. Then they could do whatever they want with them, sell, eat, give away or barter. That would cut down on some of the enforcement issues. The kicker would be that there must be independent people counting the fish to get an accurate number of pieces being taken. Also any of them fishing out side the regulations set down would face loss of fishing privileges as well as fines. Seems a simple system to me but maybe being close to 70 I am missing something.

Cummins said they had worked on this but I believe he said a number of bureaucrats did not go for it..

[alwaysfishn]

When I went to the BBQ last week for Harper I talked to John Cummins as I said. I suggested as far as this F/N situation goes why does FOC not give them a number of fish what FOC feels they should have and need. Then they could do whatever they want with them, sell, eat, give away or barter. That would cut down on some of the enforcement issues. The kicker would be that there must be independent people counting the fish to get an accurate number of pieces being taken. Also any of them fishing out side the regulations set down would face loss of fishing privileges as well as fines. Seems a simple system to me but maybe being close to 70 I am missing something.

Cummins said they had worked on this but I believe he said a number of bureaucrats did not go for it..

I think it's a great suggestion, however I see enforcement to be the issue. It's impossible to monitor the river 24/7. However, as long as sport fishermen are on the river in large numbers a least 15 of the 24 hours are being covered.......

As far as the bureaucrats not going for it....  then the politicians should fire them!  Who is in charge anyway?

[Fish Assassin]

When I went to the BBQ last week for Harper I talked to John Cummins as I said. I suggested as far as this F/N situation goes why does FOC not give them a number of fish what FOC feels they should have and need. Then they could do whatever they want with them, sell, eat, give away or barter. That would cut down on some of the enforcement issues. The kicker would be that there must be independent people counting the fish to get an accurate number of pieces being taken. Also any of them fishing out side the regulations set down would face loss of fishing privileges as well as fines. Seems a simple system to me but maybe being close to 70 I am missing something.

Cummins said they had worked on this but I believe he said a number of bureaucrats did not go for it..

Since when did bureaucrats make policies ? That's a good idea Chris. DFO can give them the fish caught in the test fishery.

[chris gadsden]

I think it's a great suggestion, however I see enforcement to be the issue. It's impossible to monitor the river 24/7. However, as long as sport fishermen are on the river in large numbers a least 15 of the 24 hours are being covered.......

As far as the bureaucrats not going for it....  then the politicians should fire them!  Who is in charge anyway?

Ask your MP Chuck and see what he says and please let us know what he says.

[chris gadsden]

Since when did bureaucrats make policies ? That's a good idea Chris. DFO can give them the fish caught in the test fishery.

Ask your MP and see what he says.

[blueback]

Hi Boys,
Great suggestions, however I think the point is really that DFO does not want to face a challenge regarding native fisheries in court. Even with the illegal drift netting, the challenge FN could/would make is that they are still allowed to fish as long as sporties are on the river (depends how you read the judgments). If a judge sides with them, a case law precedent would be established and DFO could lose any/all legal leverage in setting regulations for FN, and that's only within Canadian law. As far as international law goes, remember that most FN bands haven't signed any treaties yet and they could possibly win in court (in the type of cases mentioned above) what they would otherwise need to bargain for in treaty negotiations (as far as fish quotas/access). In fact depending how you look at it, DFO really has no say over FN as they are still in nation to nation negotiations and DFO is part the Canadian national government's infrastructure and as sovereign nations, FN do not (yet, at least) recognise Canadian Law and can claim (as I'm sure they're doing) complete rights over the entire river and all of it's fish as a starting point in treaty negotiations. If/when FN settle treaties, DFO will start enforcing the law (or maybe after the Olympics  )  I don't like any of this, but it's the only explanation I can think of that makes any sense to me in this whole fisheries mess.   

[alwaysfishn]

Hi Boys,
Great suggestions, however I think the point is really that DFO does not want to face a challenge regarding native fisheries in court.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head. There is a bigger picture that we are not being allowed to see. On a political level our "leaders" are trying not to rock the FN boat so that the public doesn't notice the mess they have gotten us in. There is no chance that the politicians will do the right thing, as the political repercussions would likely result in them losing their jobs.

I fully support the FN keeping their traditions and even expanding their rights, to fishing and hunting whenever and whatever they want and even selling their catch. However only on the condition that they be limited to using only traditional fishing and hunting tools. Traditionally they were able to sustain themselves using those techniques, why is it that today they allowed to use drift and set nets and motorized boats? The traditional customs card is something they have been allowed to exploit to a totally illogical level. And yet our leaders play along....  for what reason?

That's why we as  sportsfishermen must be united and stop the bickering about issues that divide us  We need to give our politicians some reasons to stop ignoring us. While writing your local MP is a good thing to do, it likely has minimal impact probably because few people do it. On the other hand politicians today are very internet savvy. I'm sure they have staff members reading this forum and others like it, measuring the sentiment and deciding whether it is an issue that they need to address.

The politicians will only react to whatever presents the greatest risk to them losing their jobs. Right now the sports fishermen present no threat to their jobs.

[chris gadsden]

IThat's why we as  sportsfishermen must be united and stop the bickering about issues that divide us 

This will never happen as it is similar trying to get people to agree what religion is correct and what what political party is the best. This is just life as people will always have different views on an array of subjects.

[hotrod]

Hi Boys,
Great suggestions, however I think the point is really that DFO does not want to face a challenge regarding native fisheries in court. Even with the illegal drift netting, the challenge FN could/would make is that they are still allowed to fish as long as sporties are on the river (depends how you read the judgments). If a judge sides with them, a case law precedent would be established and DFO could lose any/all legal leverage in setting regulations for FN, and that's only within Canadian law. As far as international law goes, remember that most FN bands haven't signed any treaties yet and they could possibly win in court (in the type of cases mentioned above) what they would otherwise need to bargain for in treaty negotiations (as far as fish quotas/access). In fact depending how you look at it, DFO really has no say over FN as they are still in nation to nation negotiations and DFO is part the Canadian national government's infrastructure and as sovereign nations, FN do not (yet, at least) recognise Canadian Law and can claim (as I'm sure they're doing) complete rights over the entire river and all of it's fish as a starting point in treaty negotiations. If/when FN settle treaties, DFO will start enforcing the law (or maybe after the Olympics  )  I don't like any of this, but it's the only explanation I can think of that makes any sense to me in this whole fisheries mess.   

You are exactly right here! The land or anything has not been ceded to or sold to anyone and FN still have authority!

 

 Hotrod

[lucky]

I say SHUT HER DOWN!!!!

Here's a quote from our very own Mr Gadsden

"With the low returns of sockeye now forecast and with extreme water warming I think this study should be suspended for this year as each and every sockeye possible should be given the best chance possible of reaching their natal streams.

Regards and thanks for this consideration.

Chris "

If this is true that every fish counts then what the hell are the bar fishers doing pointing fingers at the bottom bouncers??? Sockeye DO get caught on bar rods although not as frequent as bbing.

In my opinion if you aint part of the solution you are part of the problem. Simple solution to avoid hooking sockeye close the river to all anglers, then let the natives enjoy the last of the runs.

[Steelhawk]

Right on Lucky.
That is the point. For bbers, the sin of seemingly harming a c/r sockeye is something they bonk your head over & over again, but when it comes to bfers, they won't give up the world for their chance to fish even if the sockeye caught by bf will have to fight much harder by pulling a big chunk of lead. And about deliberately using a lighter line for the lead so that they can seek more thrill of fighting a lead-free fish, thereby dumping these big lead slabs all over the bar, I don't see any bfers regret a bit over it. This is always about 'me-right-you-wrong', do-it-my-way-or-don't-fish attitude. But can bfers see their own wrongs? If so, why do they keep fishing? I honestly feel that there is more chance that the big lead will harm a sockeye more, whether during the fight, or during casting where the big lead has a high chance of hitting sockeyes in the head due to shorter casting by bfers than bbers. If bbers have to stop even when last year's study proves their c/r fish had a high rate of survival, should'nt there be a study done on how much bfers can harm sockeye by casting their huge lead slabs? Just to be fair. 

[Steelhawk]

This will never happen as it is similar trying to get people to agree what religion is correct and what what political party is the best. This is just life as people will always have different views on an array of subjects.

Not true. All fishermen (commericial included) are interested on the big picture of fish stock conservation and that it is wrong that DFO & politicians are keeping a blind eyes to a special privileged group by allowing them to use potent fishing methods not part of their tradition, by allocating way more than fish than an individual's daily consumption (therefore encouraging illegal sales of fish), and by not willing to confront that group's frequent defying of the law.

We are not interested in starting fights over the narrow vision of fishing ethics interpreted by some individuals above and beyond what DFO has intended. But we are interested and united to fight over matters of real concern.

Chris, with your influence and your care for sockeye stock, perhaps you should call up the fishermen brothers up in arm against illegal fishings by FN. If you bring the media and want to show our strength in opposing the unfair fishing practice of this group, there will be a lot of us bbers who will join you. How about a demonstration of sort.

But we will not be interested in your bf clinics. 

[Morty]

If you bring the media and want to show our strength in opposing the unfair fishing practice of this group, there will be a lot of us bbers who will join you. How about a demonstration of sort.   

The media is interested in sensational stories that will sell newspapers, or boost air-time ratings so they can sell advertising.  Do not forget for even one minute that these are profit seeking enterprises.  There will need to be human blood shed before our big media gets serious about this.   "Brothers in ARMS" may be more accurate than you realize.

And get the press to look at how well the First Nations managed the Upper Fraser Valley elk heards.

[chris gadsden]

Chris, with your influence and your care for sockeye stock, perhaps you should call up the fishermen brothers up in arm against illegal fishings by FN. If you bring the media and want to show our strength in opposing the unfair fishing practice of this group, there will be a lot of us bbers who will join you. How about a demonstration of sort.

I will let you do it this time as a number of us gave up considerbale time and effort with the SDA working on this for a number of years. As I said the other day angler apathy and lack of monetary support saw it cease to operate. New and younger blood could maybe have more success with new voices for the government to listen too. I believe by the opinions stated here by some members you should have  a number of people that will help you out. Let us know when you have a group formed to tackle this issue as I will be willing to donate some funds. Keep us posted.

[chris gadsden]

And this definitely is my last post on the subject for 2009 so please donot ask me any further questions. I also respect the opinions of all that post on this subject and hold no animosity to anyone. I must add, finally FOC has spoken with the notice that was sent out today and put on a lot of vehicles at Island today 22. It is now in the hands of the anglers if they wish to co operate or not. I know they will be having boats out on the water this week observing what is going on and if the results are not favorable the river could be closed for salmon angling for a unknown period. I hope everyone enjoys the rest of the Summer, time to write The Journal on today's trip.