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[gman]

As far as I know the FN fishery for pinks always targets roe only. DFO knows this, and yet allows the fishery. So, while it seems wasteful and immoral to me, I'm not sure it is actually illegal. The commercial herring fishery was roe only, with the rest tossed for years.

[Stu]

I was working with a FN guy a few years ago, he was a nice guy, but the stories he told me made me believe that a majority of his band members have not much respect towards fishing regulations especial about selling the fish they catch for "ceremonial and food purposes" It makes me really sick when I see in TV how they wine about fish and not having enough , on the other hand wasting the fish like there is no tomorrow. I definitely believe that not all FN are this way but a great majority who is involved in fishing are.

[redtide]

i  read somewhere that the sto:lo indian band have their own native fisheries police that watch over infractions caused by band members. i think they are the only band that does this. please correct me if i'm wrong but maybe all interested FN bands should do this (self policing) along with DFO on the fraser. Too much waste and greed the way it is right now.

[Ed]

I guess it's sort of hard for the FN to respect the rules of the Government of Canada when Canada was created from settlers stealing the land from the FN. A reason why the DFO does not regulate their action is probalby due to sensative issues regarding FN. I dont agree with their actions but i'm sure our commercial fisheries do a lot more damage than they could ever. The destruction of the Atlantic Cod Industry is one of them and i'm sure it wasn't caused by FN.

I'm sure the fishery to them is more important to us as it is not a "sport" to them.

[Rodney]

Sto:lo is not a band, but a tribal council.

There are two main tribal councils in the Fraser Valley - Sto:lo Nation and Stó:lō Tribal Council, each are made of many First Nations from Hope to Langley.

The Lower Fraser First Nations' pink salmon fishery is not a communal or ceremonial fishery, but an economic opportunity opening. A similar opening for chum salmon is also available in October and November. It is a seine fishery, which allows participants to selectively harvest pink salmon and release other species. Harvested fish, specifically the roe in females, are sold.

The discarding of male pink salmon is obviously not a good practice. Several years ago members of the Upper Fraser Valley Sportfishing Advisory Committee pointed out that when a allocated quota of pink salmon is given in this fishery, the actual harvested/killed amount is in fact double of the quota, assuming the gender ratio is 1:1 and only female fish are harvested.

If it is any consolation, unharvested dead fish return to the ecosystem, doing what they do best, becoming nutrient of the Lower Fraser River watershed. The run size is much larger than required spawning escapement so from the fishery management's perspective, it does not have a significant impact on the number of offsprings produced.

If individuals find this practice unethical, then perhaps one should take a look at the commercial pink and chum salmon fisheries, which remove millions more fish than the First Nations' economic opportunity openings. Both fisheries' objective is to harvest the profitable roe, the difference is that unwanted fish by the commercial sector do not go back to the system, instead majority of the biomass is processed cheaply as various animal food products.

This of course does not excuse witnessed behaviours, because ALL fisheries in every sector have room for improvement. Wasted by-catch in commercial harvest (dumped into the ocean) should be significantly reduced, many participants in the recreational fishery should be treating the resource respectfully (a tour around the Chilliwack, Stave, Chehalis River summarizes this), this planet could be better of without aquacultural practices of predatory species at high trophic level.

The problem with discussions such as this is they simply lead to rants without action and in a couple of months from now, most are forgotten and sink into the archive. Addressing the problem is always good, but failing to research for better understanding of the problem and develop possible solutions only repels any further interests in the issue. Secondly, both intentionally and unintentionally, participants generalize all First Nations as individuals who disrespect the resource. Further more, there is tremendous amount of misinformation and speculations presented, which only widens the division between recreational anglers and First Nations.

If people wish to change things, try dealing from a different approach. Join and volunteer at a local sportfishing organization that can represent your voice. The Fraser Valley Salmon Society, or the BC Federation of Drift Fishers (which by the way, will be launching the new Chehalis fishing trail with the Chehalis First Nation in two weeks from now). Attend the sportfishing advisory committee meetings, which only take place twice a year.

[Stu]

Well spoken Rodney,
it is just hard to stay objective when we hear/see the wasting of fish that is going on. I mentioned in one of my previous posts that the commercial fisheries do the most damage to the fish stocks not the sport fishers or the FN people. We just tend to forget about the commercial impact because we don't see them in contrary to the practices that going on the Fraser.

[Ed]

Very informative post Rodney. I totally agree with the fact that FN fisheries only harvest a very small portion of the pie. Instead of putting the blame on the FN we should focus more on the commercial fisheries which are way more destructive. If we expect the FN to stop their practices, do you guys think that Canadians employed in the fishing industry would appreciate losing their jobs so fishes can be preserved? I'm sure if that was the case then we would be a lot more understanding because fishermen need an income. However, FN also need a source of income and i'm sure if they had more opportunities, they would not be doing what they do.

We dont want our bias in opinion within the sportfishing community turn us into a "Team America".

[kingpin]

the concerning part is, they throw back the males dead not alive...so how selective is this? what are the chances thompson coho and steelhead are casualties in this fishery?

[roeman]

the concerning part is, they throw back the males dead not alive...so how selective is this? what are the chances thompson coho and steelhead are casualties in this fishery?

That would never happen, use of nets is fine, but sports fishing does not allow the use of roe,, what a joke..
I don't care if I offend people with my views of FN...  Go live with them if you want to..
My grandparents could do things 80 years ago that I can't do now, things change, seems FN only wants to take things that are
beneficial and suit their needs and greed.
Just wait for the day we have to pay FN to fish their waters and their fish.
Then see what you will say..

[Ed]

That would never happen, use of nets is fine, but sports fishing does not allow the use of roe,, what a joke..
I don't care if I offend people with my views of FN...  Go live with them if you want to..
My grandparents could do things 80 years ago that I can't do now, things change, seems FN only wants to take things that are
beneficial and suit their needs and greed.
Just wait for the day we have to pay FN to fish their waters and their fish.
Then see what you will say..

You say that FN only wants to take things that are beneficial and suit their needs and greed, well the entire western society is built on that idea AKA Capitalism. Also what is the difference between paying the FN to fish their waters and paying the Canadian Government? To be honest its not about the FN or the sport fishermen, its about pointing fingers at others when i'm sure most of us do things that impact the environment. Most of us are fortunate enough to purchase things that improves our livelihood while the FN dont, so why complain so much about the few rights that they DO have? We are Canadian and we are made of many vast cultures so might as well accept it and if not the USA is a great place to fit in. They love to preach about beliefs and ideas while they create enough problems of their own.
If the day comes that we lose the rights to fish, we wont be able to blame anybody except for ourselves. If we dont have the demand for fish then commercial fisheries would not exist. To be honest I could care less if all the people working in the lumber industry (deforestation), and fishing industry all lost their jobs because it would not affect me at all but I wouldnt steep myself that low.

Also if one day I go catch a fish without using a fishing rod (not going to happen) but I'm sure I still created less of an impact on the fishery than most of the members in this forum since i've only taken home 3 salmon my whole life. For me I just go buy the fish that are dead (killed by commercial boats) and sashimi it up.


PS. If we can't fish anymore might as well go play some golf! oh wait the amount of water consumed for golf courses probably also impacts the ecosystem.

[bbronswyk2000]

You say that FN only wants to take things that are beneficial and suit their needs and greed, well the entire western society is built on that idea AKA Capitalism. Also what is the difference between paying the FN to fish their waters and paying the Canadian Government? To be honest its not about the FN or the sport fishermen, its about pointing fingers at others when i'm sure most of us do things that impact the environment. Most of us are fortunate enough to purchase things that improves our livelihood while the FN dont, so why complain so much about the few rights that they DO have? We are Canadian and we are made of many vast cultures so might as well accept it and if not the USA is a great place to fit in. They love to preach about beliefs and ideas while they create enough problems of their own.
If the day comes that we lose the rights to fish, we wont be able to blame anybody except for ourselves. If we dont have the demand for fish then commercial fisheries would not exist. To be honest I could care less if all the people working in the lumber industry (deforestation), and fishing industry all lost their jobs because it would not affect me at all but I wouldnt steep myself that low.

Also if one day I go catch a fish without using a fishing rod (not going to happen) but I'm sure I still created less of an impact on the fishery than most of the members in this forum since i've only taken home 3 salmon my whole life. For me I just go buy the fish that are dead (killed by commercial boats) and sashimi it up.


PS. If we can't fish anymore might as well go play some golf! oh wait the amount of water consumed for golf courses probably also impacts the ecosystem.

Are you saying that the FN cannot purchase things to improve their livelihood like we can? If so where do you get that idea from? They go to school, they can further their education and get any job they want. How can they not?

[Ed]

Are you saying that the FN cannot purchase things to improve their livelihood like we can? If so where do you get that idea from? They go to school, they can further their education and get any job they want. How can they not?

Sure they can and sometimes if they purchase stuff for example in West Vancouver Park Royal they dont even have to pay taxes. But in realty, us Canadians are very fortunate to be able to live in such a beautiful country. However this country was not native to us. If you understand some Canadian History or taken some sociology courses regarding FN societies you would understand what i mean by them not having access to similar opportunities. Sure they can even go to UBC with a 60 avg but how many UBC students are actually FN? or How many of them actually get income to purchase stuff like we own (i've seen posts about how much many of you fishermen spend on fishing gear a year).  Its not because they do not want to go its more because their culture has gone through many generations of suppression which has created many negative effects (E. Hastings). A psychological term would be "learned helplessness" where you lose for so long you just give up.

I dont believe in them taking advantage of their rights, but give them a break. How would you feel if someone came to your house and changed the land title to them but they allowed you to occupy in only a part of your house ( probably the basement, if you've seen where the reserve is in west vancouver near the railroads and industrial plants). A buddy of mine which is FN is from the Shushwap area and the land is BEAUTIFUL! But you know what its their land and they do have the rights to govern it however they want without other people's judgement.

[alwaysfishn]

 How would you feel if someone came to your house and changed the land title to them but they allowed you to occupy in only a part of your house ( probably the basement, if you've seen where the reserve is in west vancouver near the railroads and industrial plants). A buddy of mine which is FN is from the Shushwap area and the land is BEAUTIFUL! But you know what its their land and they do have the rights to govern it however they want without other people's judgement.

It was only when land title systems were created that individuals had a legal right to the land.

FN (indians) were settlers, how did we get to the point of suggesting they had legal rights to the land?  Just because they lived in a small part of the land, how does that make it all theirs?

[hotrod]

It was only when land title systems were created that individuals had a legal right to the land.

FN (indians) were settlers, how did we get to the point of suggesting they had legal rights to the land?  Just because they lived in a small part of the land, how does that make it all theirs?

I think you better get your head out of the sand on this one! What you need to remember is the land here is owned by the said Indians and never has and never will be sold or ceded.A smalll part of the land!...... you're dreamin! You should look into some history and get the facts! We lived on all of it. duh!

  Hotrod

all rights reserved

[Ed]

It was only when land title systems were created that individuals had a legal right to the land.

FN (indians) were settlers, how did we get to the point of suggesting they had legal rights to the land?  Just because they lived in a small part of the land, how does that make it all theirs?

The land title system that we have is also called a Torren's system which was adapted from another country. The reason why we adaped to such a system was because of the growing popularity of the real estate market. In case you dont know what that means it is the buying/selling of your rights to a particular parcel of crown land. However you should note that the system was developed by our government and not theirs so they are not required to have it to have ownership over land.

Maybe you should stop fishing all the time (suggested by your forum name alwaysfishin) and hit some books becuase your ignorance will only worsen any problem. We are merely sportfishermen comparing our fishing standards to a group of fishermen that do it for a living. So back off and let the FN do as they please because the real group of fishermen that cause the greatest impact on the ecosystem are the commercial ones.

BTW if your logic was put into place, maybe one day if CHINA invades Canada i'm sure you'd be cool that you lost your house because they dont go by our system.