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Author Topic: Fight The HST!  (Read 172756 times)

Novabonker

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Re: Fight The HST!
« Reply #330 on: June 03, 2010, 05:26:34 AM »

NB - Since you stated that you are a businessman - and you also stated that businesses should pay they 'fair' share of tax:

- How much of a Business Tax increase are you willing take on as a Businessman? (since they have dropped in the past several years as you also stated)  
- How much will you absorb before you pass it on to your consumers?  (Unless your consumer is in fact the goverment which then we know they'll pay almost anything).  
- How much higher can you charge the consumer before the consumer looks elsewhere?

What do you do then? How do you better your competitiveness?  How do you reduce your costs to entice the consumer back and still make a profit?
- Do you trim payroll / benefits / go hungry?
- How long before you start moaning that your business tax is too high?


I not going to bother with the rhetoric, but here's a link showing corporate tax cuts. I could only find it for a few years, but if you'd like to research it, you'll find it's been dropping steadily since Campbell came to power.
http://www.pwc.com/ca/en/tax/budgets/2009/british-columbia.jhtml#Corporate
As to what I'll absorb- I won't be raising my prices since Gordo raised the tax. I was exempt of PST.
As to looking elsewhere- go for it. If I don't have enough on the ball to run a profitable business, then it's survival of the fittest.

Your other questions, again if I can't swim , I'll sink and someone else will rise from the ashes.
What I don't expect is corporate welfare to keep me afloat.

A lot of business sounds like a spoiled child that never gets enough, so let's go grab some of the other kid's stuff. The economics of greed or lack of business skills..... ::)
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Novabonker

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Re: Fight The HST!
« Reply #331 on: June 03, 2010, 05:39:56 AM »

Well this has to be one of the dumbest statements of all time!!

I'll post about business in BC that won't give a penny back as the products don't sell here and they're based abroad

This is so typical of the NDP hacks, they have no clue about business and how those companies that make products in BC and sell them overseas are critical for our existence and life style in BC.
They bring the money back to BC, which is paid in taxes, wages, employee benefits , social payments. Sure lets cut back on these businesses and watch them take their operations elsewhere, where they are welcomed with open arms. And String them up if they dare make a profit or the hard working pepole have better lives. Freeloaders always complain and what everything delivered to them without having to do a decent days work.  The loader the complaints the more they want.





Again, you assume I'm an NDP supporter. Tell me , where do you get that info from? It's not accurate, but make up stuff as you wish.

" Freeloaders always complain and what everything delivered to them without having to do a decent days work. "

Inaccurate - I work and work hard.

"The loader the complaints the more they want."
Just like the pro HST crowd! They've gotten generous tax cuts and now they want to shift more on to the consumer! Ironic isn't it?
 Instead of flinging insults and such, try backing up your arguments instead of calling those that don't agree with you "dumb". (BTW- My "gender" says it's louder, not loader ;))
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chris gadsden

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Re: Fight The HST!
« Reply #332 on: June 05, 2010, 02:46:07 PM »

Whooooo hooooo!
 
We have reached our 15% internal goal in 71 out of the 85 ridings, with the remaining ones really, really close. And excellent news - Vancouver-Quilchena has joined the "red club!" Look out Mr. Hansen!
 
Congrats to Vancouver West, Burnaby and Richmond. Even though they got a later start, all have worked feverishly to catch up and are now only one week away from catching up to the rest of you! Way to go!
 
We will win this! BC rocks!!!

CameronT120

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Re: Fight The HST!
« Reply #333 on: June 05, 2010, 05:51:53 PM »

Seems that all that hard work may be for naught...

____________________________________________________


The anti-HST initiative is doomed. Here's why
 
 
BY GEOFF PLANT, SPECIAL TO THE SUN JUNE 4, 2010 COMMENTS (6)
 
 
If media statements are to be believed, the organizers of the anti-HST initiative petition are on the verge of success. But their initiative petition is fundamentally flawed and cannot possibly achieve the purpose that they intend.

To understand why, it is necessary to say something about the process under the Recall and Initiative Act, and to examine the actual petition.

An initiative petition is not just a political campaign, it is a legal process.

At the heart of every initiative petition is a draft statute. The purpose of an initiative campaign is not simply to complain about government policy -- there are lots of other ways to do that. The purpose of an initiative campaign is to require the legislature to pass a statute. The proposed statute is part of the petition itself.

The Recall and Initiative Act states clearly that an initiative may be undertaken in respect only of an issue that is within the jurisdiction of the province. In addition, the act also states that the draft bill must be clear and unambiguous. The initiative petition fails on both these grounds.

The draft bill prepared by the anti-HST campaign is called the HST Extinguishment Act. Its central provision states very simply "[T]he HST is hereby extinguished in British Columbia."

As everyone knows or should know, the HST is not provincial legislation. It's part of a federal statute, which can be amended or "extinguished" only by the federal Parliament. The legislature of British Columbia has no ability to extinguish federal legislation.

The draft bill is therefore a constitutional impossibility. It cannot be passed by the provincial legislature.

It's important to realize that the question is not whether the anti-HST campaigners could have drafted a valid bill, but whether they did. No lawyer ever succeeded in court by asking a judge to ignore the words of a statute and decide the case on the basis of what the legislature should have said.

The proposed initiative bill is flawed on other grounds. Its preamble states that the HST "contravenes" the provisions of our constitution under which the provinces have the power to impose direct taxation.

Unfortunately for the anti-HST campaigners, this is simply not the law. If they had asked, any constitutional law student could have explained that the federal government has the power to raise money by any mode or system of taxation. Therefore, the federal government has all the constitutional authority it needs to enact the HST, which is just the GST by another name. Similarly, while the provincial government clearly has authority to enact the PST, it is equally capable of deciding not to, and that is what it did when it repealed the PST.

It is hardly satisfactory to have the statute books of British Columbia filled with preambles that are constitutional nonsense.

Other provisions of the proposed bill fail to satisfy the requirement that it be "clear and unambiguous." For example, the section of the bill that tries to provide for some kind of refund to British Columbians is particularly problematic. How will eligibility for this refund be determined? By whom? Where will the money come from to pay for it? None of this is answered in the bill.

In addition, the bill would reinstate the PST as the "only" sales tax in British Columbia. It is completely silent on what therefore would happen to, for example, the Hotel Room Tax, and the Motor Fuel Tax -- are they to be repealed or reinstated? If so, on what basis?

The fact is that this proposed initiative bill should never have been accepted by Elections B.C. It does not meet the statutory requirements. But somehow it was accepted, and thousands of British Columbians have been induced to sign it in the belief that it will cause the repeal of the HST, when it can do no such thing.

And what next? There is no procedure in the Recall and Initiative Act for correcting the flaws in an initiative bill, once it has been accepted by the chief electoral officer. If the necessary signatures are obtained, the bill goes to a committee of the legislature. The committee either recommends that the bill be introduced in the legislature, or refers it back to Elections B.C. for a provincewide vote.

To undertake a provincewide vote in the face of the constitutional issues I have described would be a mistake.

There is another option. Under a statute called the Constitutional Question Act, the provincial cabinet has the power to refer any matter to the Supreme Court or Court of Appeal of B.C. for hearing and consideration. (This is the procedure that the government is using to test the constitutionality of the Criminal Code provisions outlawing polygamy.)

My suggestion is this: If the signature drive succeeds, the committee should be convened and recommend that the draft bill be tabled in the house, and immediately thereafter the bill should be referred to the courts for an opinion on its constitutional validity.

Nothing will be lost by such a procedure and much will be gained. If the bill is found to be valid, it can be debated and voted on in the house. If not, the petitioners will be free to try again, but this time the campaign will be conducted against the backdrop of a much clearer understanding of how our Constitution works.

Some may say it would be a shame if it turns out that so much energy has been invested by so many people in a failed undertaking. But that is what the rule of law is all about -- making sure that we conduct our politics according to law.

This petition fails that test. If it is fatally flawed, as I believe, its proponents alone are to blame.

Geoff Plant is a partner at Heenan Blaikie LLP and a former Liberal attorney-general of British Columbia.

© Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun
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Bavarian Raven

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Re: Fight The HST!
« Reply #334 on: June 05, 2010, 09:07:29 PM »

Quote
The anti-HST initiative is doomed. Here's why
 
 
BY GEOFF PLANT, SPECIAL TO THE SUN JUNE 4, 2010 COMMENTS (6)
 
 
If media statements are to be believed, the organizers of the anti-HST initiative petition are on the verge of success. But their initiative petition is fundamentally flawed and cannot possibly achieve the purpose that they intend.

To understand why, it is necessary to say something about the process under the Recall and Initiative Act, and to examine the actual petition.

An initiative petition is not just a political campaign, it is a legal process.

At the heart of every initiative petition is a draft statute. The purpose of an initiative campaign is not simply to complain about government policy -- there are lots of other ways to do that. The purpose of an initiative campaign is to require the legislature to pass a statute. The proposed statute is part of the petition itself.

The Recall and Initiative Act states clearly that an initiative may be undertaken in respect only of an issue that is within the jurisdiction of the province. In addition, the act also states that the draft bill must be clear and unambiguous. The initiative petition fails on both these grounds.

The draft bill prepared by the anti-HST campaign is called the HST Extinguishment Act. Its central provision states very simply "[T]he HST is hereby extinguished in British Columbia."

As everyone knows or should know, the HST is not provincial legislation. It's part of a federal statute, which can be amended or "extinguished" only by the federal Parliament. The legislature of British Columbia has no ability to extinguish federal legislation.

The draft bill is therefore a constitutional impossibility. It cannot be passed by the provincial legislature.

It's important to realize that the question is not whether the anti-HST campaigners could have drafted a valid bill, but whether they did. No lawyer ever succeeded in court by asking a judge to ignore the words of a statute and decide the case on the basis of what the legislature should have said.

The proposed initiative bill is flawed on other grounds. Its preamble states that the HST "contravenes" the provisions of our constitution under which the provinces have the power to impose direct taxation.

Unfortunately for the anti-HST campaigners, this is simply not the law. If they had asked, any constitutional law student could have explained that the federal government has the power to raise money by any mode or system of taxation. Therefore, the federal government has all the constitutional authority it needs to enact the HST, which is just the GST by another name. Similarly, while the provincial government clearly has authority to enact the PST, it is equally capable of deciding not to, and that is what it did when it repealed the PST.

It is hardly satisfactory to have the statute books of British Columbia filled with preambles that are constitutional nonsense.

Other provisions of the proposed bill fail to satisfy the requirement that it be "clear and unambiguous." For example, the section of the bill that tries to provide for some kind of refund to British Columbians is particularly problematic. How will eligibility for this refund be determined? By whom? Where will the money come from to pay for it? None of this is answered in the bill.

In addition, the bill would reinstate the PST as the "only" sales tax in British Columbia. It is completely silent on what therefore would happen to, for example, the Hotel Room Tax, and the Motor Fuel Tax -- are they to be repealed or reinstated? If so, on what basis?

The fact is that this proposed initiative bill should never have been accepted by Elections B.C. It does not meet the statutory requirements. But somehow it was accepted, and thousands of British Columbians have been induced to sign it in the belief that it will cause the repeal of the HST, when it can do no such thing.

And what next? There is no procedure in the Recall and Initiative Act for correcting the flaws in an initiative bill, once it has been accepted by the chief electoral officer. If the necessary signatures are obtained, the bill goes to a committee of the legislature. The committee either recommends that the bill be introduced in the legislature, or refers it back to Elections B.C. for a provincewide vote.

To undertake a provincewide vote in the face of the constitutional issues I have described would be a mistake.

There is another option. Under a statute called the Constitutional Question Act, the provincial cabinet has the power to refer any matter to the Supreme Court or Court of Appeal of B.C. for hearing and consideration. (This is the procedure that the government is using to test the constitutionality of the Criminal Code provisions outlawing polygamy.)

My suggestion is this: If the signature drive succeeds, the committee should be convened and recommend that the draft bill be tabled in the house, and immediately thereafter the bill should be referred to the courts for an opinion on its constitutional validity.

Nothing will be lost by such a procedure and much will be gained. If the bill is found to be valid, it can be debated and voted on in the house. If not, the petitioners will be free to try again, but this time the campaign will be conducted against the backdrop of a much clearer understanding of how our Constitution works.

Some may say it would be a shame if it turns out that so much energy has been invested by so many people in a failed undertaking. But that is what the rule of law is all about -- making sure that we conduct our politics according to law.

This petition fails that test. If it is fatally flawed, as I believe, its proponents alone are to blame.

Geoff Plant is a partner at Heenan Blaikie LLP and a former Liberal attorney-general of British Columbia.

we know we couldnt stop it from the start. but its better to die fighting.

lol or better yet, maybe its time BC becomes its own country o.O
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chris gadsden

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Re: Fight The HST!
« Reply #335 on: June 05, 2010, 10:07:07 PM »

Seems that all that hard work may be for naught...

____________________________________________________


The anti-HST initiative is doomed. Here's why
 
 
BY GEOFF PLANT, SPECIAL TO THE SUN JUNE 4, 2010 COMMENTS (6)
 
 
If media statements are to be believed, the organizers of the anti-HST initiative petition are on the verge of success. But their initiative petition is fundamentally flawed and cannot possibly achieve the purpose that they intend.

To understand why, it is necessary to say something about the process under the Recall and Initiative Act, and to examine the actual petition.

An initiative petition is not just a political campaign, it is a legal process.

At the heart of every initiative petition is a draft statute. The purpose of an initiative campaign is not simply to complain about government policy -- there are lots of other ways to do that. The purpose of an initiative campaign is to require the legislature to pass a statute. The proposed statute is part of the petition itself.

The Recall and Initiative Act states clearly that an initiative may be undertaken in respect only of an issue that is within the jurisdiction of the province. In addition, the act also states that the draft bill must be clear and unambiguous. The initiative petition fails on both these grounds.

The draft bill prepared by the anti-HST campaign is called the HST Extinguishment Act. Its central provision states very simply "[T]he HST is hereby extinguished in British Columbia."

As everyone knows or should know, the HST is not provincial legislation. It's part of a federal statute, which can be amended or "extinguished" only by the federal Parliament. The legislature of British Columbia has no ability to extinguish federal legislation.

The draft bill is therefore a constitutional impossibility. It cannot be passed by the provincial legislature.

It's important to realize that the question is not whether the anti-HST campaigners could have drafted a valid bill, but whether they did. No lawyer ever succeeded in court by asking a judge to ignore the words of a statute and decide the case on the basis of what the legislature should have said.

The proposed initiative bill is flawed on other grounds. Its preamble states that the HST "contravenes" the provisions of our constitution under which the provinces have the power to impose direct taxation.

Unfortunately for the anti-HST campaigners, this is simply not the law. If they had asked, any constitutional law student could have explained that the federal government has the power to raise money by any mode or system of taxation. Therefore, the federal government has all the constitutional authority it needs to enact the HST, which is just the GST by another name. Similarly, while the provincial government clearly has authority to enact the PST, it is equally capable of deciding not to, and that is what it did when it repealed the PST.

It is hardly satisfactory to have the statute books of British Columbia filled with preambles that are constitutional nonsense.

Other provisions of the proposed bill fail to satisfy the requirement that it be "clear and unambiguous." For example, the section of the bill that tries to provide for some kind of refund to British Columbians is particularly problematic. How will eligibility for this refund be determined? By whom? Where will the money come from to pay for it? None of this is answered in the bill.

In addition, the bill would reinstate the PST as the "only" sales tax in British Columbia. It is completely silent on what therefore would happen to, for example, the Hotel Room Tax, and the Motor Fuel Tax -- are they to be repealed or reinstated? If so, on what basis?

The fact is that this proposed initiative bill should never have been accepted by Elections B.C. It does not meet the statutory requirements. But somehow it was accepted, and thousands of British Columbians have been induced to sign it in the belief that it will cause the repeal of the HST, when it can do no such thing.

And what next? There is no procedure in the Recall and Initiative Act for correcting the flaws in an initiative bill, once it has been accepted by the chief electoral officer. If the necessary signatures are obtained, the bill goes to a committee of the legislature. The committee either recommends that the bill be introduced in the legislature, or refers it back to Elections B.C. for a provincewide vote.

To undertake a provincewide vote in the face of the constitutional issues I have described would be a mistake.

There is another option. Under a statute called the Constitutional Question Act, the provincial cabinet has the power to refer any matter to the Supreme Court or Court of Appeal of B.C. for hearing and consideration. (This is the procedure that the government is using to test the constitutionality of the Criminal Code provisions outlawing polygamy.)

My suggestion is this: If the signature drive succeeds, the committee should be convened and recommend that the draft bill be tabled in the house, and immediately thereafter the bill should be referred to the courts for an opinion on its constitutional validity.

Nothing will be lost by such a procedure and much will be gained. If the bill is found to be valid, it can be debated and voted on in the house. If not, the petitioners will be free to try again, but this time the campaign will be conducted against the backdrop of a much clearer understanding of how our Constitution works.

Some may say it would be a shame if it turns out that so much energy has been invested by so many people in a failed undertaking. But that is what the rule of law is all about -- making sure that we conduct our politics according to law.

This petition fails that test. If it is fatally flawed, as I believe, its proponents alone are to blame.

Geoff Plant is a partner at Heenan Blaikie LLP and a former Liberal attorney-general of British Columbia.

© Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun

Former Liberal cabinet minister so what do you expect him to write? A column against the HST? ::)

CameronT120

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Re: Fight The HST!
« Reply #336 on: June 06, 2010, 08:03:58 AM »

Former Liberal cabinet minister so what do you expect him to write? A column against the HST? ::)

I don't think he is speaking pro or against, but is speaking to the legalities involved.  Let's see if and NDP lawyer steps up to the plate and disputes it.
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chris gadsden

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Re: Fight The HST!
« Reply #337 on: June 06, 2010, 01:56:35 PM »

Seems that all that hard work may be for naught...

____________________________________________________


The anti-HST initiative is doomed. Here's why
 
 







Even if it is the Liberals are doomed for sure in the next election if not before and them bringing the HST in has drawn a lot of attention to their arrogance, lack of transparency, fiscal irresponsibility, poor environmental standards, etc. and the list grows longer each week.

alwaysfishn

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Re: Fight The HST!
« Reply #338 on: June 06, 2010, 06:58:00 PM »

Wow! Does that ever let the air out of the anti-HST balloon!  The question is; Did Bill know about this when he introduced this petition and went ahead anyway because he saw the political opportunity of it all?

Or........  Did Bill just start flapping his gum's without checking into the legality of what he was proposing?

Why didn't he go after a recall campaign rather than something logical like the HST? Had he gone that route I would probably be campaigning elbow to elbow with Chris in order to dump our MLA!
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skaha

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Re: Fight The HST!
« Reply #339 on: June 06, 2010, 08:47:25 PM »

Wow! Does that ever let the air out of the anti-HST balloon!  The question is; Did Bill know about this when he introduced this petition and went ahead anyway because he saw the political opportunity of it all?

Or........  Did Bill just start flapping his gum's without checking into the legality of what he was proposing?

Why didn't he go after a recall campaign rather than something logical like the HST? Had he gone that route I would probably be campaigning elbow to elbow with Chris in order to dump our MLA!

--lawyers give opinion not judgement, the comments of Geoff Plant though interesting are no more credable than many of the comments we've seen here.
--My opinion is, recall will be easier or harder depending upon how the various MLA's react in the house to the petition. It may be that some  MLA's from both sides of the house will be facing recall
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Novabonker

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Re: Fight The HST!
« Reply #340 on: June 06, 2010, 09:51:33 PM »



A man went into a guard dog facility, fed up with his business being robbed repeatedly. The owner pointed to a cage with a nasty looking Doberman in it " Not mean enough" replied the man. Next, they came upon a pit bull, snarling and frothing - "Pussy cat" replied the man - "I want something REALLY mean. The trainer led him to the back where an old mangy mutt lay passively licking his hind quarters. "That old cur? He doesn't look mean. He's just laying there licking his butt" . "I know " said the trainer " He just ate Gordon Campbell and he's trying to get the taste out of his mouth". ;D
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Novabonker

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chris gadsden

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Re: Fight The HST!
« Reply #342 on: June 07, 2010, 04:23:03 PM »

Hello Chris

Fight HST Petition hits 15% in 80 of 85 Ridings

Vander Zalm refutes former BC Liberal Attorney General Plant

Delta – The Fight HST petition continues to steamroll forward, adding another 9 ridings to the 15% of registered voters’ signatures for a total of 80 of 85 ridings to meet the Fight HST internal threshold.

Fight HST Lead Organizer, Chris Delaney, says the total signatures gathered is over 620,000, more than double the Elections BC threshold of 300,000 signatures required across the 85 electoral districts in BC.

“Even with a rainy Vancouver weekend, we were still able to close the gap in another 9 ridings. We are extremely pleased, and will work hard to complete our internal threshold of 15% in the remaining ridings next week,” said Delaney.

Fight HST Leader, Bill Vander Zalm, said the BC Government has become desperate in the face of the overwhelming success of the anti-HST petition. He says they have stooped to new lows to try to fight the people of BC, and are now making up bogus arguments about the ‘legality’ of the petition.

“They started off trying to tell everyone the HST was the best thing they could do to stimulate jobs and the economy in BC. When nobody bought that, they started saying we were misinforming people. When they couldn’t back that up, they began looking for another angle. Now they’re trying to say the petition and accompanying legislation, which was legally vetted by lawyers at Elections BC is ‘illegal’. They are right out of orbit,” said Vander Zalm.

Vander Zalm says a recent article by former BC Liberal Attorney General, Geoff Plant, characterizing the petition legislation as illegal would be laughable if it weren’t so pathetic and obviously political. He says Plant’s key assertion, that the HST is federal and can’t be terminated by BC cannot be taken seriously.

“If that were true, then the federal government could simply create the HST in any province it wanted, without even asking them. They could set it at any rate they wanted, and could apply it to anything they wanted.”

“But the reality is, both BC and Ottawa signed an agreement that can be terminated by either side. Our petition, if passed by the Legislature, will terminate the Agreement that created the HST, thereby extinguishing the HST in BC. It’s not rocket science. The federal government will have no choice but to respect the will of British Columbia voters – only a Liberal Plant would suggest otherwise,” concluded Vander Zalm.

Novabonker

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Re: Fight The HST!
« Reply #343 on: June 08, 2010, 08:46:12 AM »

ROLLING,ROLLING,ROLLING!!!!!
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firstlight

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Re: Fight The HST!
« Reply #344 on: June 08, 2010, 09:01:25 AM »

If anyone actually thinks this petition is going to change anything i think your in for some disapointment.
This Campbell government has been doing what it wants all along.
Whats really scary is people will still vote or this guy if and when he runs again.
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