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[blaydRnr]

blah.. blah.. blah.. blah

after 6 years on this forum nothing's changed...always the same argument and always the same (or should i say lack of) conclusion.... who cares?!
snagging/flossing same crap. it comes down to intent.

do i bottom bounce the Fraser...YES.  the Vedder?...Never! so how do i fish it? by using my level wind or my centerpin...shortfloating roe, blades, corkies, shrimp/bugs, and wool. does that make me ethical or unethical? (don't care)... i'm abiding by the Rules and Regulations.

however, i do believe some of you are either confused or misguided with 'bottom bouncing' and it's alleged crossover to the Vedder... i personally have witnessed half a dozen newbies try this method only to laugh at them because of their constant snagging and loss of expensive tackle.

most flossers/snaggers are seasoned fishermen who set their tackle to line fish with the aid of their polarized glasses...either levelwind or centerpin... very little weight, small hook (with little wool), and fluorocarbon line...in turn, fly fishermen with leaded line sweeping the drift... so why argue over something that doesn't make sense?  last i checked, flossing the Fraser in this manner (Vedder style) proved unproductive and non existent.

the debate should be over intent and not over methods used.

99% of bottom bouncers intend to floss sockeye (myself included)...have i ever enticed them to bite? YES...especially fishing the Chuck...and inadvertently while shortfloating for springs in a deep run...on the Vedder....and bottom bouncing (legit way with 2 foot leader) at seabird, and chucking spoons for pinks at island 22 (over ten years ago).

[FlyFishin Magician]

Go with you conscience, if you think it is OK to take fish by a method where you quarry is not biting, go for it. For me and many others they want no part of it. I donot need a fish that badly that I would have to fish that way.

Sorry for being a bit blunt but, I went after the Liberal with this letter that ran yesterday in the Chilliwack Progress. I have to tell it the way I see it even though many will say I have it wrong but so be it.

I have to agree with Randy White's statement that the B.C. Liberal rein as government will come to an end in the next provincial election. (Former conservative Conservative MP predicts election defeat for B.C. Liberals July 27, 2010 by Robert Freeman ) Bringing in the HST I feel has signaled the final death blow to Campbell's government and for most of his cabinet ministers and MLA's. Many other issues and decisions made over their term as government has seen the voter loose confidence in the BC Liberals. As in many causes governments lose power as it is their own actions that defeat them, in other words, they defeat themselves.

One reason I feel why Campbell and his finance minster Colin Hansen were forced to find another way to bring in more revenue to the provincial coffers is because their government cut taxes starting back when they were first elected. A total of 37 percent since 2001 the Premier said this in a previous article while defending his government's stance on bringing in the HST on July 1. When we see the financial mess we are in now how wise a move was that to cut these taxes so much? We now have had a ballooning deficit the last few years with the news now filled with how our education, and  health care services that we so treasure in British Columbia continue to suffer. Many other ministry including the Ministry of the Environment has been slashed to the bare bones. The Liberal party always boasts about these tax reductions but it leads one to ask was it more about using this statement time and time again just to get elected 2 more times then good fiscal management? The proof now seems to appear in the pudding as because of the financial mess we are in the Liberals, in a desperate move have had to bring in the HST to try to prevent our deficit from growing even more.

Then we had the 2010 Olympics that I have to admit I enjoyed along with most  British Columbians and people throughout the world, we were all thrilled by the accomplishments of many of our Canadian athletes. However I believe our tax base in British Columbia is too small to be able the afford the tax dollars that had to be spent to put this 2 week party on. More money added to our deficit. Where do we get these funds from Hansen must have asked himself. Well the HST now appears to be the latest one while core services continue to face financial hardships.

Also the fish farm issue has been handled so badly, they continue to ignore the evidence provided by Dr Alexandra Morton and others, just another example of how they really do not seem to care about the environment and our wild salmon that are a cornerstone of British Columbia. The same wild salmon that have helped build our province with these salmon substantiating our First Nation people for thousands of years. This issue is a prime example how the government has stopped listening to the people, they I believe have become too arrogant and self centered. If they do not like what you are saying and it is not on their agenda they tune you out, hoping you will just go away.

I know being a government MLA or a cabinet minister is not easy and some time hard decisions have to be faced but over the years but I have seen this once fresh government change and lose touch with the people, the people that put them in power to represent them. Transparency on so many issues disappeared. Many other ways of being good government slipped away also, we are all familiar with them. Two years ago I was so disillusioned and left the party and did not renew my Liberal membership. I am glad I did as the way the HST was brought in it would have been the final nail in the coffin for me as it now will be for this once great party in less than 3 years time from now, if not sooner if recall is successful.

Where do I go from here, back to my family roots of the NDP where my mother's cousin son Grant Notley was the NDP  leader in Alberta before he was killed in the 1980's in a plane crash or will it be another party that will surface in the months ahead that will garner my support.

All I ask of the next government, please donot do what the Liberals have done, lose the trust of many of us, over 700,000 voters who signed the anti HST petition. The people have spoken and the B.C. Liberals will now pay the price as Randy White says, in the not too distant future.

Chris - just when I was thinking you "hijacked" thiis thread, I realized that you feel that we've been "flossed" by the government.   

[alwaysfishn]

Chris - just when I was thinking you "hijacked" thiis thread, I realized that you feel that we've been "flossed" by the government.   

Hey Chris, If the Liberals start charging HST on every sockeye that we floss I may start thinking the way you do....... 

Congrats on your letter being published!

[nosey]

   Excellent entry Chris now back to the legal versus ethical thing, we all know the liberals have no ethics, even when I still BBed for springs when the sockeye showed up I would quit till they were open, yesterday i talked to a friend of mine that told me he and his buddy released 18 socks the other day bbing for springs. Every time I released a sockeye that fought hard and long it was always hard to revive. I'm a deer hunter too and a couple of times in the past I've seen deer get busted up by a poorly placed or poorly timed shot and get away wvr it happens, but it just leaves you with a sick feeling that doesn't go away for the rest of the season, this is the way i feel when I release a sockeye that I don't think is going to revive. I do realize the odd sockeye gets caught while bar fishing but in 38 years of bar fishing I can count the ones I've caught using this method on my ten fingers and I'll take that as an acceptable risk. Ethics are in the eye of the beholder and I'll be out snagging sockeye with everyone else tomorrow but I sure won't sugarcoat it and call it sportfishing or ethical in any way I'm just going out to legally fill up the canner. Otherwise I'd do what my father and grandfather did and buy em off of the natives.

[jeff]

Well put noesy I agree with everthing you said, I will out tomorrow after work looking to get the start on filling the freezer, but once it closes the BB gear is put away till next time.

[chris gadsden]

I am going for sockeye too, later this week but they will have to bite the good doctor, on the bar gear. Enjoy the combat activity tomorrow for those that will be entering the war zone, and keep the boxing to a minimum  and the knifes in the pockets.

I wonder how things will work out a Grassy when they tie up the bar for the sockeye study, timely. Maybe they will close the sockeye by then.

[alwaysfishn]

I am going for sockeye too, later this week but they will have to bite the good doctor, on the bar gear. Enjoy the combat activity tomorrow for those that will be entering the war zone, and keep the boxing to a minimum   and the knifes in the pockets.

I wonder how things will work out a Grassy when they tie up the bar for the sockeye study, timely. Maybe they will close the sockeye by then.

I believe the Harrison opens for sockeye tomorrow as well. There is another option to catch a sockeye without using your bouncing betty....

[chris gadsden]

I believe the Harrison opens for sockeye tomorrow as well. There is another option to catch a sockeye without using your bouncing betty....

Only up as far as the Hwy. 7 Bridge, OK if they school there like they did a few years ago but they are already up river. They now keep it closed above the bridge because of the snagging that goes on in the Harrison rapids area.

It hard to make them bite the further they get away from the ocean. For an example I was at the Thompson last week and thousands of sockeye going through but I did not get one bite over 3 days although I did not fish hard and was using roe, krill or ghost shrimp may have worked but no interst as I could not keep them if hooked and do not like catch and release on these guys. Jack fishing slow, only 2 including one clipped, head sent in.

[Geff_t]

I guess flossing sockeye could be seen as exactly the same as bird hunting with a shot gun. Does a flock of birds have the same chance with all that buck shot coming at them as a sockeye does with a long leader no, so why do these same people think it is ethical to hunt birds in this manner to put meat in the freezer but it is not ethical to catch sockeye for the same reason.  

[chris gadsden]

I guess flossing sockeye could be seen as exactly the same as bird hunting with a shot gun. Does a flock of birds have the same chance with all that buck shot coming at them as a sockeye does with a long leader no, so why do these same people think it is ethical to hunt birds in this manner to put meat in the freezer but it is not ethical to catch sockeye for the same reason.  

In all respect Geoff_ T there is no other way I know of the hunt birds so I belive it is hard to compare the 2.

[Geff_t]

In all respect Geoff_ T there is no other way I know of the hunt birds so I belive it is hard to compare the 2.

Hey Chris I do respect you alot especially with everything you do for the environment but when it comes to this debate I just do not get it. You can compare the 2. Both with fishing and hunting there is always other methods that can be used. You choose to us a shot gun that shots alot of buck shot at a flock of birds when you can us a single shot gun like a 22, yes it is less efficient but I am sure you will hit one once in a while. Then there is fishing for sockeye on the fraser. A long leader is used when there are other methods but these methods may also not be as efficient but I am sure one will be caught once in a while. So why is a shot gun more ethical for birds then a long leader for sockeye on the fraser.

[BBarley]

Have to agree with Geff_t on this one.

Shooting birds with a shot gun is a logical choice because your aim is to kill the birds with the best method possible. Fishing sockeye with a long leader is a logical choice because you want to harvest your fish with the best method possible.

Perhaps you shoot the birds and one of them drops but doesn't die, ethically, do you kill the bird to take it out of its misery? It probably won't survive if you leave it.
How about sockeye, by catching one for the sheer enjoyment, your going to seriously hinder it's ability to reach it's final destination if you release it....

It comes down to peace of mind and the old rule that what I don't know doesn't hurt me. Would you feel bad walking out of a field with a few geese hobbling along because one of it's wings is ripped up? Probably. Would you feel bad after releasing a sockeye when you played it for 10 minutes and know its got 500km to swim? Probably not, because once it's back in the water it's "out of sight, out of mind."

If the name of the game is to harvest meat for the freezer, do it, do it with the least harm to the animal and use all the animal or as much of it as you can.

[chris gadsden]

Hey Chris I do respect you alot especially with everything you do for the environment but when it comes to this debate I just do not get it. You can compare the 2. Both with fishing and hunting there is always other methods that can be used. You choose to us a shot gun that shots alot of buck shot at a flock of birds when you can us a single shot gun like a 22, yes it is less efficient but I am sure you will hit one once in a while. Then there is fishing for sockeye on the fraser. A long leader is used when there are other methods but these methods may also not be as efficient but I am sure one will be caught once in a while. So why is a shot gun more ethical for birds then a long leader for sockeye on the fraser.

I donot want to create hard feelings over this debate but using a 22 is very dangerous to use if one would try shooting waterfowl with it, especially around water where the bullet can ricochet. I am not certain but it may be illegal to shoot waterfowl with a single projectile but in any case no true water fowl would hunt with a 22. I will leave it here and I feel the season will be short and the river will return to some sort of order then.

[andychan]

[alwaysfishn]

Sorry about your horse Andy.....   

Perhaps we should start another thread where we can show pictures of dead pets.