Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[buck]

alwaysfishn

Chinook stocks are in trouble but we continue to persue them too the last fish. Just because DFO opens the fishery doesn't make it right. Political pressure from all user groups trumps
scientific data. We are managing our stocks politically not biologically. Chinooks are the least abundant salmon species but fished heavily by all user groups. It won't be long and they'll
all be gone and then we can start pointing fingers. Bottom line, flossing is killing too many chinook.     
Sockeye on the other hand are one of the more abundant species which should be open for a limited harvest. However, how do you control the shear greed of some individuals?
Your comment about Jack Straw fishing the Thompson is a little desperate on your part, as you well know it's not the sports angler who is determining the fate of Thompson Steelhead.
Vedder River Steehead numbers are not great but we still fish them right on the spawning grounds. Once again managed by politics and economics.
Tried to get river closed above Tamihi after April 1 to protect spawning fish but was told they would have to check with local sporting good stores to see if it would have an economic
affect on their bottom line. Does anybody care about fish anymore? The agencies who are suppose too, are not doing their job. It's all about how much money can be generated for anything other
than fish production. Blah! Blah! Blah! Blah! enough said.

[bkk]

Well said Buck. Hit the nail on the head as usual! Let's face facts here, this is  a harvest fishery and nothing else. The trouble with this fishery as has been pointed out many times is that it is transported to other rivers and people think that this is the way you need to fish. Any idiot can floss but a select few really know how to fish efectively. That is why some anglers catch lots of fish ( The Master) while others only catch some fish ( insert favorite name here). If I had my choice I would allow a recreational gill net fishery for sockeye a couple of days a year and you get your allocation for the year ( 5, 10, 15 fish ) and then it's over. This is similar to what the Alaskans do on some of their rivers. Then ban flossing and go back to angling. That way everone knows that the fishery will be over in two or so days and you could actually take the fish out of a healthly run component. Enforce the dickens out of it and come done hard on non-compliance individuals. Would most likely be less of a mess than what is happening now and you can put in small mesh restrictions to limit chinook bycatch. That would then help the depressed chinook stocks that are being impacted by flossing while allowing the meat fishery to proceed. Many people talk about wanting to protect these small stocks but the reality of it is most people don't give a rats my friend, they just want their meat.

 My solution and now you can have your say. Let the fireworks begin!

[alwaysfishn]

Bottom line, flossing is killing too many chinook.     

Now that is just a silly statement. You have absolutely no way of backing that up!

[alwaysfishn]

Any idiot can floss but a select few really know how to fish efectively.

See there you go with the elitist attitude. I view things a little differently. The key to any sport is participation, not skill level. Some fishermen hardly catch anything yet they enjoy the time out in nature. Because someone chooses a fishing method different from yours doesn't mean that they are an "idiot".

If I had my choice I would allow a recreational gill net fishery for sockeye a couple of days a year and you get your allocation for the year ( 5, 10, 15 fish ) and then it's over. This is similar to what the Alaskans do on some of their rivers. Then ban flossing and go back to angling. That way everone knows that the fishery will be over in two or so days and you could actually take the fish out of a healthly run component. Enforce the dickens out of it and come done hard on non-compliance individuals. Would most likely be less of a mess than what is happening now and you can put in small mesh restrictions to limit chinook bycatch. That would then help the depressed chinook stocks that are being impacted by flossing while allowing the meat fishery to proceed. Many people talk about wanting to protect these small stocks but the reality of it is most people don't give a rats ***, they just want their meat.

While your suggestion is creative, it is not practical nor does it fit our free enterprise system. I could see this working in some communist country where government control is everything. And what about the sport fishing shops that are put out of business as a result? I believe that many fishermen while starting in this fishery continue by learning other fisheries. Participation is important or the sport will die. Unless we get more recruits into sports fishing the resource will dwindle because the governments will cut back on their support.

While the early chinook runs have dwindled this is the first time I'm hearing that the late chinook runs are in trouble. If you have information on that please share it otherwise you're just blowing smoke....  Suggesting that flossing is having a detrimental impact on salmon stocks is just your bias and you have no scientific data to back that up.

For the record I think if it everyone went back to bar fishing it would be great. The comaraderie on the bars is what is missing on many bars today. On many days bar fishing has been more effective for me than flossing.  However I have no problem with flossing because it is a legal and ethical form of harvesting your fish.

Why end your comment with "let the fireworks begin". The only folks that have posted any form of fireworks on this thread so far are the non-flossers..  Over all I think we are having a fairly civil debate here....  

[buck]

Alwaysfishn

Are you saying you have no problem flossing , because it's legal? I guess you wouldn't have a problem then with people flossing steelhead?
Your making an assumption that I'm a none flosser. I enjoy fishing for sockeye when their open and have flossed for springs in the past. That
being said, I have observed many springs being taken on the scale bar far in excess that would have been taken bar fishing. Do you really think
that flossers are not having an impact on stocks ? If it were just flossers to content with fish stocks would be healthy but there are native nets,
the commercial fishery, and environmental concerns. All these combine to have a hugh impact on overall numbers making it back to the spawning
grounds.
Survival rates are way down for both coho and chinook and we are seeing fewer adults returning every year. If you think I'm blowing smoke just wait a few more
cycles and then we'll see . Oh, and by the way where are your numbers that suggest that mid timing chinook runs are in good shape?

[alwaysfishn]

Are you saying you have no problem flossing , because it's legal? I guess you wouldn't have a problem then with people flossing steelhead? Your making an assumption that I'm a none flosser. I enjoy fishing for sockeye when their open and have flossed for springs in the past. ...................  If you think I'm blowing smoke just wait a few more cycles and then we'll see . Oh, and by the way where are your numbers that suggest that mid timing chinook runs are in good shape?

You totally confuse me.... I never said it was ok to floss steelhead and I still don't have any idea where you stand on flossing. 

Unless you and bkk are the same person........... (are you??)    I said bkk was blowing smoke.....  If you re-read my response to your statement I said it was "silly" .......   

As far as numbers, I rely on the fisheries department's assessment of the sustainability of all stocks and therefore accept that the openings they make available to us sportsfishermen indicate there are adequate fish for sustainability of the stocks as well as a harvest.

[liketofish]

Alwaysfishn

Are you saying you have no problem flossing , because it's legal? I guess you wouldn't have a problem then with people flossing steelhead?
Your making an assumption that I'm a none flosser. I enjoy fishing for sockeye when their open and have flossed for springs in the past. That
being said, I have observed many springs being taken on the scale bar far in excess that would have been taken bar fishing. Do you really think
that flossers are not having an impact on stocks ? If it were just flossers to content with fish stocks would be healthy but there are native nets,
the commercial fishery, and environmental concerns. All these combine to have a hugh impact on overall numbers making it back to the spawning
grounds.
Survival rates are way down for both coho and chinook and we are seeing fewer adults returning every year. If you think I'm blowing smoke just wait a few more
cycles and then we'll see . Oh, and by the way where are your numbers that suggest that mid timing chinook runs are in good shape?

You are no flosser to me if you mention Scales taking too many chinooks. No sir. How often you fished Scales in the last decade? You are probably imagining the number. I have flossed springs for more than a decade in the Scales, and I have yet to see more than 30 springs taken out on the best weekend days, especially after DFO put up the new fishing boundary. Most of the time if you see 10 fish it is considered good day. The last trip I went there I was standing at the best spot of the entire bar, and bombed the water for 8 hours, only to see 3 fish taken out of 5 hooked. That is with weekend crowd. Other days should be even less. So I don't know where you get your figure. Justify your claim with real experience as a bouncer. It is no point spreading bias with false claim. Many anti-bouncing posters will go to quoting extremes to justify their attack on bouncing.  I think those test nets plus the native nettings are taking thousands more times of fish than your fellow fishermen. Be real and go fight the real guys if you truly care for fish stock.   I don't care a dim if others don't agree with me fishing a legal methods based on their perverted idea about fishing. This is just human that we can have different opinion on the same issue. Just look at all the political parties.

[Gooey]

Likestofish...I'm going to call you out here because you seem to be a pretty regular flosser. 

Do you think that a flossed fish actaully bit the hook?  If you have been flossing long enough, i assume you're smart enough to know that a flossed fish didnt bite the hook.  So if a fish didnt bite the hook...um wouldnt you consider it snagged?

If you saw a guy walk into a run, cast out and reef back on his rod, and hook a fish....you would consider that snagging.  If the fish was hook around the mouth would that make it legal?

So you fling a weight  out into a river close the spool down on your reel and sweep the weight with a trailing leader and hook through the river.  As your line sweeps through the run, your line gets caught in the fish's mouth and runs through the mouth until the hook is pulled into the side of the mouth.... well, usually.  Sometimes the fish is hooked in the back, top of the head, wrapped around a fin, etc.   

Either way the fish didnt bite.  only real differnce is that flossing places the hook close enough to the mouth to get away with it .  Just because its the rivers energy (opposed to a fisher yarding on his line) that drives the hook home, the intent is the same TO HOOK A FISH WITHOUT A SOLICITED STRIKE. 

Thats snagging in my books and its nothing more than a simple tweak in the rules to make it illegal.

[alwaysfishn]

Likestofish...I'm going to call you out here because you seem to be a pretty regular flosser. 

Do you think that a flossed fish actaully bit the hook?  If you have been flossing long enough, i assume you're smart enough to know that a flossed fish didnt bite the hook.  So if a fish didnt bite the hook...um wouldnt you consider it snagged?

If you saw a guy walk into a run, cast out and reef back on his rod, and hook a fish....you would consider that snagging.  If the fish was hook around the mouth would that make it legal?

So you fling a weight  out into a river close the spool down on your reel and sweep the weight with a trailing leader and hook through the river.  As your line sweeps through the run, your line gets caught in the fish's mouth and runs through the mouth until the hook is pulled into the side of the mouth.... well, usually.  Sometimes the fish is hooked in the back, top of the head, wrapped around a fin, etc.   

Either way the fish didnt bite.  only real differnce is that flossing places the hook close enough to the mouth to get away with it .  Just because its the rivers energy (opposed to a fisher yarding on his line) that drives the hook home, the intent is the same TO HOOK A FISH WITHOUT A SOLICITED STRIKE. 

Thats snagging in my books and its nothing more than a simple tweak in the rules to make it illegal.

Re read the regulations Gooey......   You are assuming too many things about fishermen that use flossing as a fish harvesting technique!   

snagging (foul hooking)… hooking a fish in any other part of its body other than the mouth. Attempting to snag fish of any species is prohibited. Any fish willfully or accidentally snagged must be released
immediately.

When fishermen floss they do so with the intent of connecting the hook with the fishes mouth (same as any fishermen using bait or a fly or a lure). The reason they don't want to hook it anywhere other than the mouth is that they are required to release the fish.....   

Additional facts about flossing are that the CO's allow it. They wouldn't they allow it if it was illegal. They are there to enforce the laws!

What is snagging in your books is totally irrelevant to how the law reads and how the flossing technique is regulated. 

[Gooey]

OK so if i position my hook under the chin of a fish and give it a yank and hook the fish in the jaw...then thats legal right...because its in the mouth...right? NO THATS SNAGGING!

thats the thing most flossers are sooo freaking clueless and what started as a way of harvesting sockeye in an environment where they dont bite, has turned into a cancer used to hook any type of fish, in any river, in any condition.

PS - lack of enforcement doesnt maek something legal.

[alwaysfishn]

OK so if i position my hook under the chin of a fish and give it a yank and hook the fish in the jaw...then thats legal right...because its in the mouth...right? NO THATS SNAGGING!

thats the thing most flossers are sooo freaking clueless and what started as a way of harvesting sockeye in an environment where they dont bite, has turned into a cancer used to hook any type of fish, in any river, in any condition.

PS - lack of enforcement doesnt maek something legal.

Lets agree that your view on flossing doesn't quite match how the law views it. 

It's just not necessary to go calling people "freaking clueless" as soon as you realize your argument isn't standing up.......   

[skaha]

--I agree in part with Gooey.. I don't think flossing was intended to be legal. The law is a funny thing... once a practice has been accepted and becomes a general practice.. it is fairly difficult to prosecute.. The reported fact that it is not enforced means crown might not want to pursue prosecution.

--Easy solution for Fisheries to come clean and clarify the definition If they so choose or put out a supplement stating that the common practice known as flossing is not legal and then state that this interpretation will be enforced from the date of notice or conversely that on certain sections of a river sockeye may be caught using the common practice ( illustrate and define) know as flossing. This is no different than any other specific regulation.

--If flossing is intended as a preferred method of selective harvest.. ie easy release of non targeted species then maybe commercial and traditional controlled fisheries should conscider allowing flossers to harvest fish instead of using nets in sensitive areas where high incidence of by-catch occur.

--I still prefer the idea of a willful take in my own personal ideal of recreational fishing thus choose to believe that flossing is snaggin even given the present definition..   

[liketofish]

Gooey, you are probably the clueless guy if you think Fraser sockeyes don't bite. Many of my fishing friends told me they often hooked sockeyes inside the mouth bouncing, especially lately when water clears up. I have got quite a few fish inside the mouth myself. I have heard of another friend who said, unfortunately, one of his mouth caught socx inhaled the hook too deep to cause bad bleeding around the gill. Only the ignorant will say Fraser sockeyes don't bite. They base their bias on their own lack of skill or experiences. Those of us bounced long enough know the real story, from years of experience.  During the murky water period and when socx are thick, yes, you get them mostly flossed. But now when water clears up, Fraser socx bite just like their cousins in other systems. If you don't know how, I will reveal you the skill to catch sockeyes inside the mouth so you can feel good eating a mouth caught sockeye when it opens (if you can overcome your mental prison of keeping a Fraser sockeye or bear the guilt of being mixed in with the bouncers).   You don't even need a super long leader. It takes skill and experience to find out the 'sockeye highway' , an area they stage in good number during travel and it takes certain river formation and good presentation to get them biting like any other reiver system. When they are moving, yes, the fish is mostly flossed, but when they are in staging mode, they bite just like fish resting in a riffle will bite. Don't be brain-washed into believing that Sockeyes don't bite and be closed mind. For those of us who have bounced since socx opened for retention, we just smile to hear all those silly statements from ignorant greenies that sockeye don't bite.    On the other hand, I for one don't care if people keep a sockeye flossed or in the mouth. Just enjoy a legally caught fish with the family. Why make fishing so complicated?

[koko]

Gooey, you are probably the clueless guy if you think Fraser sockeyes don't bite. Many of my fishing friends told me they often hooked sockeyes inside the mouth bouncing, especially lately when water clears up. I have got quite a few fish inside the mouth myself. I have heard of another friend who said, unfortunately, one of his mouth caught socx inhaled the hook too deep to cause bad bleeding around the gill. Only the ignorant will say Fraser sockeyes don't bite. They base their bias on their own lack of skill or experiences. Those of us bounced long enough know the real story, from years of experience.  During the murky water period and when socx are thick, yes, you get them mostly flossed. But now when water clears up, Fraser socx bite just like their cousins in other systems. If you don't know how, I will reveal you the skill to catch sockeyes inside the mouth so you can feel good eating a mouth caught sockeye when it opens (if you can overcome your mental prison of keeping a Fraser sockeye or bear the guilt of being mixed in with the bouncers).   You don't even need a super long leader. It takes skill and experience to find out the 'sockeye highway' , an area they stage in good number during travel and it takes certain river formation and good presentation to get them biting like any other reiver system. When they are moving, yes, the fish is mostly flossed, but when they are in staging mode, they bite just like fish resting in a riffle will bite. Don't be brain-washed into believing that Sockeyes don't bite and be closed mind. For those of us who have bounced since socx opened for retention, we just smile to hear all those silly statements from ignorant greenies that sockeye don't bite.    On the other hand, I for one don't care if people keep a sockeye flossed or in the mouth. Just enjoy a legally caught fish with the family. Why make fishing so complicated?

You just take all the word out of my mouth. Back in the early 90, there was very few people fish the scale bar. In early September when the river was clear, just have a ball fly fish for pink and sockeye. Now I don't fish much on the bar, cause it get a bit crowded, but is nothing like it when you hook a good spring and it make a 100 yard dash accross the Frazer, and you look at your reel and say I am in trouble.

[Gooey]

Likesto fish - I reread your first 2 postings...2 comments.

1) as stated before, lack of enforcement doesn't equal legal.
2) you ask why flossing isn't ethical...I gave you my answer...the fish didnt bite the hook and I consider that to be a snagged fish.

I have flossed fish on the fraser for many years too.  I can count on one hand the number of fish I hooked "in the mouth" ie as the result of a bite.  I have hooked 2 socks and a spring as I retrieved my line - those fish did indeed bite.  I think I started flossing the fraser around 1995 so I have hooked a number of fish too...heck I even have a mold to make and sell bouncing betties but I always have kept the fraser fishery in perspective: 99.5% of the fish flossed on the fraser didn't bite.  I dont care what you or koko care to say on the issue, I have seen enough outside-in hooked fish to know exactly whats going on. 

The real issue for me is that a lot of guys now accept it as the standard and thats what drives me nuts.  I ran in to an absolute jackass at the allison pools that said the only people hooking reds are flossing them...I had one in the box already that day from roe.  Flossers in general also so a low degree of respect for fish...I see more flossers hauling fish up and booting back then any float fishers...its a meat mentality thing and that too needs to change.  I do believe that flossing is a serious cancer within the lower mainlands sports fishing community.