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[Robert_G]

Ricer.

What do you say to the fact that your tax dollars have been supporting a dead industry for the 3 previous years.....Government subsidy for an industry that should no longer exist.

[anorden]

Agree they should do more to protect the poor runs.

But realistically how long can you commercially freeze sockeye for? Long enough to stockpile for the bad years?
At the end of the day food, economics and politics are what drives the decisions, not science!

[BBarley]

ricer, I enjoyed your well typed out explanation and partial defense of the commercial fishery.

There are a few holes in your argument you may wish to rethink though....


Overspawning - I'm well aware of certain situations where ESSR is a valid concern. Realistically one must take into account several issues here. The length of suitable spawning gravel, nutrient sources, predation etc. You mention that populations of several species fluctuate which is absolutely the case with everything. Nature does have a wonderful way of working things out though and unless a severe disease outbreak occurs, overspawning is extremely localized and rarely demonstrates challenges to the overall health of the returns.

The other one, as Robert_G already mentioned, is the extremely subsidized commercial fishery as it is today. You mentioned that 15 years ago the commercial fishermen fished 10 months a year. Up and down the coast salmon stocks have typically had a downward trend in regards to populations and spawning numbers. Do you think maybe there is some correlation between the long commercial openings and the downturn in many salmon populations? The case of Skeena coho populations and the SE Alaskan commercial fishery is an excellent example. As you stated, the commercial fishermen have had 4 days of fishing in the last 4 years at the mouth of the Fraser. I`m sorry, but from a layman`s view, that simply does not add up to a financially viable income choice.

I`m well aware that many commercial fishermen both past and present have had to find another source of income to provide for themselves and their families. I guess what I`m trying to say is, is it worth it for commercial fishermen to pay for the upkeep of their boats and equipment when the overall commercial fishing openings are becoming rarer and rarer?

I`m not trying to take a shot at your argument, you made alot of great points.

Here`s to a healthy conversation.

[Robert_G]

The problem is that guys like ricer are blinded by sentimentalism.
His family has several generations of commercial fishing, so he is going to have a soft spot for it.
Unfortunately, he allows emotions and sentimentalism to blind himself to the fact that commercial fishing is a dead industry that is subsidized by tax payers and is ruining what is left of our DECLINING salmon stocks...not to mention the devastating bycatch that DFO is not paying attention to right now.

[skaha]

--I don't understand why so many want to take away from the legal catch of others..
--If the fish numbers are correct I can forgo a few days of slower recreational fishing, although some fish do still get through. Maybe during these times it will be a bit less crowded and at little more enjoyable fishing.

--I still think we should be looking for some scientists that come from a different university than our current crop so we get a more diverse/accurate approach to management and maybe someone that can come up with decent run predictions.

--For years commercial fishers have provided an excellent source for data on fish runs.. I think they even pay some taxes, license fees and provide jobs for those servicing the fleet.
--We should be celebrating a sustainable commercial fishery and wait our turn on the recreational fishery.
--I cannot understand why people are so down on sustainable commercial fishing and forestry that this provice was founded on and has been recently ignored to the point of ruin.

[bcguy]

--I cannot understand why people are so down on sustainable commercial fishing and forestry that this provice was founded on and has been recently ignored to the point of ruin.

I guess if we were a little more focused on sustainablility, there might be a little more support. The "good old days", were not really so good for the enviroment, especially in forestry, maybe what they meant to say was, if you werent so worried and would stop watching us and telling us about the environment and sustainability, we could really make some money here. I have been involved with forestry, and know first hand the devestating consequences of poor logging practices.
The other point I want to make is...if you could only work 3 hrs out of 4 yrs...is that really the industry you want to work in? Truely, I dont care how many generations you came from that were involved in it, maybe if our grandfathers had paid a little more respect to this fishery, we wouldnt be in the trouble we are in now, just like forestry.Pillaging a resource until there is nothing left of it, is not sustanability in my books, I could be wrong, but I bet 100 million cod would argue other wise.

[blaydRnr]

I guess if we were a little more focused on sustainablility, there might be a little more support. The "good old days", were not really so good for the enviroment, especially in forestry, maybe what they meant to say was, if you werent so worried and would stop watching us and telling us about the environment and sustainability, we could really make some money here. I have been involved with forestry, and know first hand the devestating consequences of poor logging practices.
The other point I want to make is...if you could only work 3 hrs out of 4 yrs...is that really the industry you want to work in? Truely, I dont care how many generations you came from that were involved in it, maybe if our grandfathers had paid a little more respect to this fishery, we wouldnt be in the trouble we are in now, just like forestry.Pillaging a resource until there is nothing left of it, is not sustanability in my books, I could be wrong, but I bet 100 million cod would argue other wise.

i would have to agree...as much as i feel for the commercial fishers, they are at the forefront of the industry's decline...poor harvesting practices and mismanagement along with the 'bottomless pit' mentality that killed the east coast cod fishery.

[ribak]

What I can not comprehend is: why we (recreational fishermen) could not take our 4 fish instead of current 2 when the sockeye return is so great (the best in 100 years) and everybody else taken them by millions?! We also pay our taxes, gas, licences, stamps, etc, etc.

[StillAqua]

What I can not comprehend is: why we (recreational fishermen) could not take our 4 fish instead of current 2 when the sockeye return is so great (the best in 100 years) and everybody else taken them by millions?! We also pay our taxes, gas, licences, stamps, etc, etc.

Probably so that you'll give up up your spot on the river bank so some other fisher can have a chance at the resource.

[VAGAbond]

What I can not comprehend is: why we (recreational fishermen) could not take our 4 fish instead of current 2 when the sockeye return is so great (the best in 100 years) and everybody else taken them by millions?!

Because you don't bring enough money to the table.    Buy a boat and go out on the ocean and you can have four.    The logic of that escapes me also.

[alwaysfishn]

What I can not comprehend is: why we (recreational fishermen) could not take our 4 fish instead of current 2 when the sockeye return is so great (the best in 100 years) and everybody else taken them by millions?! We also pay our taxes, gas, licences, stamps, etc, etc.

I'm sure everyone in the upper river will be able to get as much sockeye as they need... no reason to up the daily quota.  A person can only eat so many fish and keeping them in the freezer for longer than 6 months will seriously degrade the taste. Be appreciative of what you have...  

[StillAqua]

i would have to agree...as much as i feel for the commercial fishers, they are at the forefront of the industry's decline...poor harvesting practices and mismanagement along with the 'bottomless pit' mentality that killed the east coast cod fishery.

I don't blame the commercial fishermen on either coast for the decline in salmon or cod stocks. They only go out and catch, under heavy regulations, what they are told they can catch. If the catch number is too high for too long, the stock suffers but it wasn't the fishermens fault. They are just doing their job.

The daily management of the Fraser River salmon fisheries south of Texada is the responsibility of the Fraser Panel of the Pacific Salmon Commission, not DFO, and it has been since the 1980's and the Salmon Treaty. DFO chairs the Canadian side of the panel but the USA has 40% of the seats and there are reps for gillnetters, seiners, First Nations and recreational fishermen that make decisions about harvesting and openings. It's all on the PSC website. DFO gives them best guesses as to how many spawners they need to let through and what the forecast numbers coming back are expected to be. But if you read the start of season forecasts, it's obvious that they can no longer predict how many fish will be coming back until they open the test fisheries. Something wild and fluctuating is going in the ocean and the trick will be to manage conservatively to protect the weak years. But the Fraser Panels mandate is to maximize productivity and sustainable harvest, which can often mean pushing the limits of fishing.

[Dr. Backlash]

just got home from work, and as I was driving over the Alex Fraser, I saw the most boats I've ever seen, for as far as I could see on either side of the bridge...like at least 3 or 4 dozen boats or more....might be slow fishing in the valley this weekend!

[BBarley]

As of August 24th,

Catch Accounted to date - 4,086,580
Potential Spawning Escapement - 5,891,820

Looks like 41% of the run to date has been taken out before even getting out of tidal water.
Combine that with the FN fisheries and the sportsfisheries above Mission and it's feasible to be looking at 45% of the run not even getting a chance to spawn.

Maybe throw a few more obstacles in the way like high water temperatures, low water flows and disease outbreak.

Ultimately the true story will be 4 years from now when this generations offspring flood the rivers again.

[lovetofish]

I'm sure everyone in the upper river will be able to get as much sockeye as they need... no reason to up the daily quota.  A person can only eat so many fish and keeping them in the freezer for longer than 6 months will seriously degrade the taste. Be appreciative of what you have...  

I asked the same question a couple of weeks ago.  Today I think that the 2 fish a day limit is fine. By now most people probably have enough fish in the freezer or cans. What is the point in catching more fish you won't eat. I hate throwing meat or fish out because it was in the freezer too long.  Some people will go out and catch their limit if it was 2, 4, or 10 just because they can.
We have enough fish for ourselves and my parents. We may go out again if my sister or a cousin wants to go out, but we don't need to bring any more home for us.
It has been a good sockeye season for us and we appreciate all the fish we were able to bring home.