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Author Topic: Impose a maximum leader length.  (Read 18944 times)

Driller

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Impose a maximum leader length.
« on: November 14, 2010, 10:34:48 AM »

While fishing the Vedder earlier in the season, my friend and I were amazed at how many people use a 10 ft leader.  Not going to say exactly what we saw, but it seems that a large number of anglers are using really long leaders to hook fish. He says, unless they impose a maximum leader length we're going to have to put up with the gong show.  I agree.  I think that a leader longer than 3 feet is not required, to catch fish.  In fact most times, once you exceed the 3 foot length you are more less flossing.  I personally use a leader 16-20 inches.

Do people mostly agree?  Or should I simmer down?
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Fish Slayer

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Re: Impose a maximum leader length.
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2010, 10:49:36 AM »

A leader length restriction is no good without proper education on now to fish. Fishing is a form of hunting and there is a course needed before you're issued a hunting license, it should be the same for a fishing license. If you ever fish near cement slab or other areas with pocket water look for the anglers who are always fighting fish, they're using leaders 8-16" long in the pockets so what good would a 3' leader restriction be then for that?
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Driller

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Re: Impose a maximum leader length.
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2010, 10:57:56 AM »

I don't understand your question.  They are using an 8-16 inch leader and what good would a 3' leader restriction do?  It wouldn't affect anyone who fishes with a leader less than 3 feet long.  A mandatory course would be good.  Just like hunters have to take.
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Fish Slayer

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Re: Impose a maximum leader length.
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2010, 11:22:17 AM »

I'm saying that a long leader isn't needed to floss or snag fish. In the lower or mid where there's flat wide runs a long leader would be better as you "sweep" it across the run like bottom bouncing for sockeye in the fraser. A short leader of 8-16" is better in fast pocket water as it gets down in the face of the fish faster where it can then be flossed or snagged. So a 3' leader restriction will do nothing to fix the pocket rippers at all, if anything all the snaggers from the lower and mid will now become pocket rippers. The only good thing to fix the problem of snagging and flossing would be education and enforcement. How about the fly fishers with a 3' leader restriction? Sure their leader could be 2 1/2' long but their fly line could still be used to floss fish still. You could make all sorts of tackle restrictions and none will fix the actions of anglers, the only one that will is a training course and enforcement.
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Driller

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Re: Impose a maximum leader length.
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2010, 11:49:13 AM »

Very interesting.  Thanks for clarifying.
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skaha

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Re: Impose a maximum leader length.
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2010, 12:32:29 PM »

--agree leader length is not the problem as can floss or snag with no leader.
--I guess over all a kill quota by geographic location... kill quota would include reasonable % of catch and release as we know some released fish die... also depending on how hooked and released.

--again any method which does not have a reliable method for enforcement will not work.

--for those who cannot stomach it... maybe snag kill quota different time of day or portion of the selective harvest season 
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doja

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Re: Impose a maximum leader length.
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2010, 01:35:00 PM »

I don't see much of a problem with it..... The vedder gets large if not the largest runs of all the rivers in the lower-mainland so who cares. It's a harvest for some and for others it's a sport. The sorties seem to think that what they enjoy should be what other must do and I don't agree with that. Under the exact same argument the PETA group says the fishermen are barbaric and they are right... We don't need the meat as we can get protein from else wheres... And the C&R guys are doing nothing more than torturing fish for their own amusement.... and they seem to like to do so on runs that are not hatchery and wild and in reality should be left alone... But they seem to think they are special. ::)

And people seem to keep implying that hunting is sporting and, blah,  blah,  blah,.... they shoot the animal from large distances as it is a harvest. Now if a guy went out with a knife and took an animal on then I would call that sporting, but all other mean is no different than flossing... Even bow hunters sometimes sit and wait to take a "sucker shot" with out the animal not even having a chance.... And  I have no problem with that as it is a harvest, NO C&R there.

The fact is those who preach that it is unethical are hypocrites and nothing more!

Now I personally don't floss much any more as I enjoy knowing that they bite and I do fairly well, but the odd time when it is called for I'll also floss. I won't however floss unless there is a decent sized run and most likely I'll be keeping the fish and usually it is a last resort as conditions may be difficult for what ever reason.

Flossing on small flows is unfortunate but that is the human nature. :-\ But if there were lots of fish it'd be no problem...

Snagging is not flossing and is wrong!

It blows me away when people, and I won't name names, but think that flossing is so unethical and choose to bait fish (which I find can result in death due to deep hooking of wild fish) preach how bad flossing is yet go and hunt??? ::) ::) ::) I'm sure they would be up in arms if some one tried to shoot a fish for food, LOL. Now if they went out with a rod and bait (bark, leafs, what ever land creatures eat) then they would have a leg to stand on... but they don't. ::)

Rec fisher have little impact on the numbers VS the commercial guys who are far less "ethical" than the people who floss.

The real problems here is over fishing and usually this is the result of commercial fisheries. Flossers are consuming a local food source, but commercial/some FN guys are exploiting our local foods source for greedy cash!!!

And we also have a government that is putting less and less money into our resources (look at hatchery numbers from the 80's to now, it is declining on some rivers) as I believe they have an opposite agenda.... no fish in the rivers would mean that it would be far easier to dam them which would result in more hydro electricity they could produce in which would grow the economy and put money into the hands of the social elite (the ones who run the show).

No fish = no fishermen = no one to speak up when they want to dam and destroy rivers...

Fishery's are a management nightmare and don't add much to the over Canadian economy. In fact, I "think" that fish farms actually add more to the over all economy than natural runs... no enforcement, more stuff purchased (tax paid), etc....

I say simmer down.... enjoy what you have... as our government will soon destroy it....
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 01:38:09 PM by doja »
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ribolovac02

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Re: Impose a maximum leader length.
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2010, 02:04:07 PM »

Very thoughfull post Doja,good on you for putting it out there.
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wizard

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Re: Impose a maximum leader length.
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2010, 03:17:39 PM »

it's a slippery slope.  by labelling any fishery a "harvest fishery" imo gives the wrong impression.
we have laws and regulations for a reason, unless you are following the laws as written, you are poaching imo....

I don't know, there's just something about the word "harvest" that seems...unstustainable to me and it opens the door to excusing and allowing ANY fishing methods.  i can see it now "I'm harvesting these cohos, so why can't I keep this one that's hooked in the tail"?

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doja

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Re: Impose a maximum leader length.
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2010, 04:02:32 PM »

it's a slippery slope.  by labelling any fishery a "harvest fishery" imo gives the wrong impression.

Then should we eliminate all quotas if it's not a harvest... wait then there will be no hatchery fish.....so only a few wild are present.... now are you going to molest these "few" wild fish just for kicks, LOL.

we have laws and regulations for a reason, unless you are following the laws as written, you are poaching imo....

Well duh, breaking the law is breaking the law. A little history lesson though... The nazis while killing jews were following their masters "law". Were they right in doing so... of course not but they were following the law, so just because it's a law doesn't make it right.... Just saying. ;)

Making more rules is not going to change the situation. More fish makes fishing easier. Less fish makes the fishing harder in which people probably will just floss more... And I don't see where you got from my post that harvesting leads to poaching. But in any event poachers are a drop in the bucket compared to commercial boats. I still don't think poaching is right but I don't think it is the main problem the fishery faces


I don't know, there's just something about the word "harvest" that seems...unsustainable to me and it opens the door to excusing and allowing ANY fishing methods.  i can see it now "I'm harvesting these cohos, so why can't I keep this one that's hooked in the tail"?

Umm, Netting the river from side to side is exactly what you describe but is completely legal. During sockeye season I have never seen so many boats in such a small river ( the Fraser look small with all the boats LOL) and do you have any idea how many more fish they took VS rec fishers.....sure a few fish were snagged and coho/steel-head were accidentally and probably purposely keep but I wonder how many found their way into a drift net

It is a harvest if their is a quota. But how a fishing boat is allowed such a large number of fish is insane. I think they should have to follow the same rules as us... 4 fish a day but as a commercial guy you can sell them. But that is not the case and is why we have less fish than in the past. Now keep fish at the minimal level.... kinda like having a credit card and paying the minimum.... not wise!!!!



A well respected member of another site said it best.... I'd rather see a river full of fish and people flossing  and enjoying them self's than a river void of fish and fishermen...

I personally think that the fishing community is a joke!!! They bicker amongst them self about how the other is fishing while the commercial guys rape and pillage "un-ethically". ::)

Thanks ribolovac02
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Fish Slayer

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Re: Impose a maximum leader length.
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2010, 06:13:50 PM »

Flossing on the vedder spills over to other flows all to rapidly, that is the problem doja. Uneducated anglers find it as an effective way to fish as they're into multiple fish easily and consistently. Yes the hatchery production levels have dropped in the last 10-20 years, does that now mean that we can turn a blind eye to the law now? Flossing is snagging, snagging is illegal. Simple as that we are not out hunting Jews like brain washed Nazis. There is plenty of info out there to read and learn from about fishing and we are not cut off from society to create different thoughts like back in the early 1900's. Did you know that Americans signed up to go to war against the Nazis with the thoughts that they were actual monsters? Upon confronting the enemy only then did they realize they were fighting other humans.
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doja

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Re: Impose a maximum leader length.
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2010, 06:30:36 PM »

Flossing on the vedder spills over to other flows all to rapidly, that is the problem doja. Uneducated anglers find it as an effective way to fish as they're into multiple fish easily and consistently. Yes the hatchery production levels have dropped in the last 10-20 years, does that now mean that we can turn a blind eye to the law now? Flossing is snagging, snagging is illegal. Simple as that we are not out hunting Jews like brain washed Nazis. There is plenty of info out there to read and learn from about fishing and we are not cut off from society to create different thoughts like back in the early 1900's. Did you know that Americans signed up to go to war against the Nazis with the thoughts that they were actual monsters? Upon confronting the enemy only then did they realize they were fighting other humans.

Care to show me this "documented" fact on paper. I've yet to see someone provide a single piece of evidence proving this. You may "think" so but if what you say is true then how did the sockeye fishery take place as all sockeye are flossed. LOL. Why does DFO ask that people fish selectively when they closed it down. Why didn't they say no flossing.

You spout BS

And please show me how flossing has caused a decline in fish stocks.... You can't!!!

But it is well documented that the commercial fishery has!!!

And just like the yanks, you are lead to believe that other fisher men are the enemy when they are not the real threat. ::) But I've stated my opinion on the fishing community.

And I've yet to hear or see prof that flossing has resulted in lower numbers of fish on smaller flows.... Just a bunch of fishermen getting their panties in a bunch because there are more people on "their" piece of water, LOL.

And did you know that Americans think that when they signed up to fight terror they were really just pawns and sent to fight a political agenda, not terror, LOL tpyical yaks...

And I've taken some political science courses and it is safe to say the general public is not too bright in regards to a lot of things...( this is based on document provided by my teacher on studies done in north America. This is a fact, not my opinion!)

Look at how the government has destroyed, well, everything that nature has to offer, and "we" have done nothing but bicker about petty things!!! ::)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 07:56:11 PM by doja »
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bluesteele

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Re: Impose a maximum leader length.
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2010, 06:58:35 PM »

Care to show me this "documented" fact on paper. I've yet to see someone provide a single piece of evidence proving this. You may "think" so but if what you say is true then how did the sockeye fishery take place as all sockeye are flossed. LOL. Why does DFO ask that people fish selectively when they closed it down. Why didn't they say no flossing.

You spout BS

And please show me how flossing has caused a decline in fish stocks.... You can't!!!

But it is well documented that the commercial fishery has!!!

And just like the yanks, you are lead to believe that other fisher men are the enemy when they are not the real threat. ::) But I've stated my opinion on the fishing community.

And I've yet to hear or see prof that flossing has resulted in lower numbers of fish on smaller flows.... Just a bunch of fishermen getting their panties in a bunch because there are more people on "their" piece of water, LOL.

And did you know that Americans think that when they signed up to fight terror they were really just pawns and sent to fight a political agenda, not terror, LOL unintelligent yaks...

And I've taken some political science courses and it is safe to say the general public is not too bright...

How about you show us these well documented facts you refer too that commercial fishing and some native guys has caused the decline in OUR fish stocks???

As for your comment on the American military .. Those men have some nards unlike......



Bluesteele


PS   I am all for shortening leaders.  ;D ;D ;D
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doja

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Re: Impose a maximum leader length.
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2010, 07:29:21 PM »

How about you show us these well documented facts you refer too that commercial fishing and some native guys has caused the decline in OUR fish stocks???

As for your comment on the American military .. Those men have some nards unlike...... CANADIANS HAVE BIGGER NARD'S , me included. ;D
seriously I grew up around Canadian vets from the WW and Canadians are very well respected, more so than Americans... And FYI military (ours and Americans) are in other country's imposing "our will" on their way of life, killing children, women and any one who get in the way. Not a whole lot different than the Nazis... Just a much smaller scale... Who's the "monster" now, LOL.


Bluesteele


PS   I am all for shortening leaders.  ;D ;D ;D

http://www.sfu.ca/cstudies/science/resources/1273783937.pdf

There's more but you can find these your self.... not hard to do.... try looking at local streams.... it some times very shocking...

Now it would be more correct to say that the government is ultimately responsible but the commercial guys play a bigger part...well... then us.


EDIT: Now your turn.... show me documents that state flossing is destroying ours fish stocks, LOL..... good luck!
« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 07:54:06 PM by doja »
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NiceFish

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Re: Impose a maximum leader length.
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2010, 08:43:45 PM »

While I do agree that you can floss with shorter leader lengths in different types of waters, I think another more easily enforced change to the regulation is to perhaps have a maximum hook size?
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