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[Fish Slayer]

doja there will not be any studies done on the effects of flossing on fish in rivers such as the chilliwack. However clearly you like to go get your floss on at the nearest pocket with the way you support it. I'm sure a wild fish (let's say a wild coho which has to be released) that is SNAGGED 3 times while trying to run up a set of white water rapids will surely survive to spawn after being dragged in sideway right? I highly doubt it, no need for a study to prove that just common sense. Yes I fully agree that the drift nets and commercial guys do WAY more harm to our fish stocks than any recreational anglers could, however why have snaggers out there doing additional damage. Why is it so hard for anglers to entice the fish to bite? Why do people need to go out and snag fish for 30+lbs of roe?  You're the one who brought up the fact that apparently flossing does no harm to fish stocks, where is your proof of such an accusation?

[skaha]

--for the number of fish that are designated for harvest in a geographic area...snagging  and keeping the harvest quota would put less stress on the escapement fish than netting them all and trying to release escapement fish.
--some river systems have geographic sections or designated times for  a first fish caught retention limit... that is first fish landed you take it and go home... no culling or catch and release. these are managed similar to commercial harvest areas with a total catch area quotas. The harvest is restricted by time, geographic location and monitored total catch for the area.

--we have an idea of the number of fish that can be killed by humans and that kill is managed by allocation to various groups.
--when it is determined there are not enough fish the entire fishery is shut down.. when  fish are available they are allocated according to negotiated quotas.
--if you wish to kill fish by dropping rocks off a bridge...fill your boots... form a group and try to get a quota allocated...if you are not successful getting your allocation then don't come into the area that is allocated to other groups and drop rocks off a bridge just because you don't agree with not having been successful in getting an allocation of quota.
--if on the other hand.. a drop rock off a bridge quota is allocated for a one week period I suggest that you don't try drift boat fishing under the bridged during the drop rock quota period.

[chris gadsden]

The reason is the same as why native and commercial fishermen use their nets......   People need to eat, they like the taste of salmon and they have figured out an effective, and efficient way to catch them. This isn't just a sign of the times, this has gone on for generations.

I have a problem with fishermen that break the law, however I disagree with labeling fishermen as non-sporting when they are using legal techniques to catch fish. Implementing new rules like regulating leader lengths and types of gear without more CO's to enforce those regulations would be pointless.

From the BC fishing regulations booklet. "snagging (foul hooking)… hooking a fish
in any other part of its body other than
the mouth. Attempting to snag fish of any
species is prohibited. Any fish willfully
or accidently snagged must be released
immediately".


Wouldn't you agree when people are out flossing, sweeping, dipping etc. they know they are just attempting to snag the fish as one would have to be a real newby to not know the fish are not biting as such a high percentage of fish are hooked in the hinge part of the mouth area?

[alwaysfishn]

From the BC fishing regulations booklet. "snagging (foul hooking)… hooking a fish
in any other part of its body other than
the mouth. Attempting to snag fish of any
species is prohibited. Any fish willfully
or accidently snagged must be released
immediately".


Wouldn't you agree when people are out flossing, sweeping, dipping etc. they know they are just attempting to snag the fish as one would have to be a real newby to not know the fish are not biting as such a high percentage of fish are hooked in the hinge part of the mouth area?

I know what you are saying Chris but playing the devil's advocate I could argue that as long as the hook is in the mouth area and not in the body it is a legal catch according to the wording in the regs.  As far as attempting to snag, it could be argued that unless a fisherman is yanking back then he is not attempting to snag. The challenge in rewriting the regs to make flossing illegal would be that flyfishing would become illegal by default. (long leader) As has been discussed far too often on this forum, "flossing", or "long lining" is not illegal as no one that I am aware of has ever gotten a ticket for doing it.

However even if they tightened up the wording in the regs, without enforcement on the rivers it would be a pointless exercise ...

[doja]

doja there will not be any studies done on the effects of flossing on fish in rivers such as the chilliwack. However clearly you like to go get your floss on at the nearest pocket with the way you support it. I'm sure a wild fish (let's say a wild coho which has to be released) that is SNAGGED 3 times while trying to run up a set of white water rapids will surely survive to spawn after being dragged in sideway right? I highly doubt it, no need for a study to prove that just common sense. Yes I fully agree that the drift nets and commercial guys do WAY more harm to our fish stocks than any recreational anglers could, however why have snaggers out there doing additional damage. Why is it so hard for anglers to entice the fish to bite? Why do people need to go out and snag fish for 30+lbs of roe?  You're the one who brought up the fact that apparently flossing does no harm to fish stocks, where is your proof of such an accusation?

Look up the number of coho that have made it to the hatchery this year..... then the numbers from 2005. http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/sep-pmvs/projects-projets/chilliwack/production-eng.htm Do you see the upward trend.... Not decline.

And if flossing was a issue their would be studies.... wait.... there are some that have been done on sockeye.

More and more are making it past the flossers..... Your flossing theory has no leg too stand on in regards to this river.... I don't have available info to speak of other rivers but flossing is not a new experience and had been going on for many years, ever since I started. Just a lot more fishermen on the river, that's all.

And thanks for reading my first post I said that very few times I will floss....If any. The only time I did this year was 1 day fishing for sockeye. But I'm no opposed to it.

As for foul hooking a fish, it happens with fly guys as well. I caught a little steelhead smolt that eat my bait and became deeped hooked.... I don't think it faired to well, at best. A foul hooked salmon will probably not die and is at the end of it life. Have you seen the way chum treat other fish.

Oh and your last sentience, now flossing is snagging and every flosser is a poacher... You argumentative skills are weak at best and you seem to suffer from "confusing one with another". I highly doubt that these guys are using wool while poaching that many fish....

From the BC fishing regulations booklet. "snagging (foul hooking)… hooking a fish
in any other part of its body other than
the mouth. Attempting to snag fish of any
species is prohibited. Any fish willfully
or accidently snagged must be released
immediately".


Wouldn't you agree when people are out flossing, sweeping, dipping etc. they know they are just attempting to snag the fish as one would have to be a real newby to not know the fish are not biting as such a high percentage of fish are hooked in the hinge part of the mouth area?

No, I could agree that you or anyone else could not provide a form of document that showed someone getting penalized for flossing.

I could agree that flossing is not nearly as effective as blatant snagging by far....

I could agree that flossing is an acceptable harvesting technique.

I could also agree that the reason the rule was written was to deter "real snaggers" from becoming legal. You know treble hook, snagging lures ( I won't say what kind), multiple hooks on a line, etc....

Now from what I understand is that bait/lure fishermen don't like to fish around flossers. I can understand this as I don't like fishing around fly guys. Not that I don't like them but the styles don't mix. Maybe we need to create "zones" so people will enjoy them self's with methods they enjoy???

The vedder river has only so much water that is best suited for bait/lure. Flossing can be implement on a much wider scale there for expanding the available fishing ground.

And could you imagine.... everyone using the same thing that you would be using. good luck getting a bite then...lol

And chris don't you hunt? How would you feel if I took my rifle/bow down to the river and started shooting fish? You would be up in arms saying it is not sporting, yet you will shoot ducks.... Why not use a fishing line with hook and bread and have them"take" your offering instead of taking a "body shot". This is a clear double standard.

[wizard]

And chris don't you hunt? How would you feel if I took my rifle/bow down to the river and started shooting fish? You would be up in arms saying it is not sporting, yet you will shoot ducks.... Why not use a fishing line with hook and bread and have them"take" your offering instead of taking a "body shot". This is a clear double standard.

it's more of a double standard on your point...you say how bad commercial fishery is for over fishing, and poor method standards, yet you advocate that recreational fishery become more like them adopting the same "harvest" mentality which ultimately/inevidably leads to widespread abuse.   

as well, you mentioned in an earlier post that sports fishing could be interpreted as inhumane because it causes stress to released fish and what not, well what happens when a flosser hooks a fish that has to be let go (wild coho/steelhead) is that not causing stress as well, maybe you should put your rod down as well incase of causing harm to a fish that you might have to let go.

the only real argument I've heard from pro snaggers/flossers is, "It's a harvesting technique and commercials do much worse" THAT is a double standard in itself.

whatever it comes down to, this issue will never go away and there will always be two sides to the fence

[alwaysfishn]

it's more of a double standard on your point...you say how bad commercial fishery is for over fishing, and poor method standards, yet you advocate that recreational fishery become more like them adopting the same "harvest" mentality which ultimately/inevidably leads to widespread abuse.   

as well, you mentioned in an earlier post that sports fishing could be interpreted as inhumane because it causes stress to released fish and what not, well what happens when a flosser hooks a fish that has to be let go (wild coho/steelhead) is that not causing stress as well, maybe you should put your rod down as well incase of causing harm to a fish that you might have to let go.

the only real argument I've heard from pro snaggers/flossers is, "It's a harvesting technique and commercials do much worse" THAT is a double standard in itself.

whatever it comes down to, this issue will never go away and there will always be two sides to the fence

I agree.......   now can we talk about something else?   

[Bently]

doja, why the " WAR and PEACE " post's everytime, it's getting old.

Commercial fishers feed a large part of the world, and are just trying to make a living in doing so. Even mentioning their methods in a " Impose a Maximum Leader Length" discussion is way off topic, redundant, and done so by whiners , just whining, nothing more.

 Flossing a fish with any length of leader might be  "legal"  , but sure is a poor choice IMO.

[doja]

doja, why the " WAR and PEACE " post's everytime, it's getting old.

Then walk away, LOL

Commercial fishers feed a large part of the world, and are just trying to make a living in doing so. Even mentioning their methods in a " Impose a Maximum Leader Length" discussion is way off topic, redundant, and done so by whiners , just whining, nothing more.

I mention their methods to see if it is about conservation or just preference.
 Flossing a fish with any length of leader might be  "legal"  , but sure is a poor choice IMO.

[Kype]

Not wanting to sound like a broken record but ..... even with shorter leader lengths (which I certainly agree to and no doubt most fishermen would too) sadly the arguements keep coming back to enforcement - for without it we all just venting. 

The Vedder is an easy river to police too as we all know how accessible it is.

[Kype]

PS.  Why not impose a maximum hook size also?  This is done to good effect elsewhere and tends to put off poachers! 

[doja]

doja, why the " WAR and PEACE " post's everytime, it's getting old.

Commercial fishers feed a large part of the world, and are just trying to make a living in doing so. Even mentioning their methods in a " Impose a Maximum Leader Length" discussion is way off topic, redundant, and done so by whiners , just whining, nothing more.

Flossing a fish with any length of leader might be   "legal"   , but sure is a poor choice IMO.

The same could be said about your chum harvest this year too. Targeting chum at their lowest, shame on you!!!....LOL

PS, I let my chum go this year (even though I had really nice ones and people were a little surprised).... especially with the abundance of coho in the rivers (and my freezer ), but that is my choice and I would not slander someone for doing something legal and in the end is not going to do much harm.

[doja]

it's more of a double standard on your point...you say how bad commercial fishery is for over fishing, and poor method standards, yet you advocate that recreational fishery become more like them adopting the same "harvest" mentality which ultimately/inevidably leads to widespread abuse. 

When did I say we should use drift nets for rec fishing,  Did I say we should increase quotas I advocate the commercial fishery becomes more like us... no nets and lower quotas! Look at how many sockeye they kept and how many rec fishers kept

as well, you mentioned in an earlier post that sports fishing could be interpreted as inhumane because it causes stress to released fish and what not, well what happens when a flosser hooks a fish that has to be let go (wild coho/steelhead) is that not causing stress as well, maybe you should put your rod down as well incase of causing harm to a fish that you might have to let go.

WOW!, You read my posts but your brain fails to absorb the content....I said earlier that bait fishing can result in deep hooking/death of fish, flossing cannot and gives the fish a far better chance at survival. In fact I have never flossed a fish in the eyeball but on many times had the lure hook go threw their eye. Ever wonder why rivers have a bait ban but no flossing ban, LOL.  PS, I almost exclusively fish spinners as to avoid this. (rare I fish bait)

the only real argument I've heard from pro snaggers/flossers is, "It's a harvesting technique and commercials do much worse" THAT is a double standard in itself.

Wrong! However the answer to this lays in following post. I suggest you re-read them.... Here's a hint, bait, hunting, etc....

whatever it comes down to, this issue will never go away and there will always be two sides to the fence

And that's what keeps this world an interesting place

[burnaby]

Agree with the leader max length is 12"/300cm and hook size max is 2. Chance of snagging fish is way lower and size 2 straightens out easily on accidental body snags. All the ethical fly fishing anglers who proudly get the fish to bite should fully support this.

[burnaby]

What problem, the hook straighten out or it doesn't?
A small fish snagged on a large hook won't straighten out forcing you to land the fish as happens with sock fishing.

Straighten out size 2 hooks? I dont know what kind you are using but I have never had that problem... even on large snagged fish 25lbs +