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Author Topic: Much More To Sea Lice Debate  (Read 20924 times)

VAGAbond

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Re: Much More To Sea Lice Debate
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2010, 12:54:56 PM »

Don't get trapped into debating the minutiae of the research.   The tobacco industry played that game for years.

Are open containment salmon farms a risk to wild salmon?    Probably yes.   Is there a devastating risk?  Probably no but we don't know.   Will we ever know?   Probably no unless the risk is devastating and then we will find out too late.

So is it worth the risk?  I say no because we don't know,  so put salmon farms in containment.

Buy unused oil tankers, fix up the tanks, add filters, chillers etc and park them anywhere you like.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 12:57:57 PM by VAGAbond »
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lapetitebuse

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Re: Much More To Sea Lice Debate
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2010, 09:34:23 PM »

if we are not sure weather salmon farms will or have caused wild stock decline, then the precautionary principle should apply.
Too bad businesses don't really know the significance of it.
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chris gadsden

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Re: Much More To Sea Lice Debate
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2010, 07:48:10 PM »

RAFE HERE ... this from a reader tells what farmed fish do even when there are no wild salmon. Moreover, because of the disease - thought to have come from the eggs from Norway where local fish farms get their eggs - have caused massive unemployment. Further, the small fish industry - smelt, sardines, etc - is all but gone. And the nearly Campbell-less government thinks this is a marvelous industry for BC.
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rafe: Most likely you have not read the article Patagonia's Peril in the Feb. 2010 National Geographic magazine -see page 4 of 5. If you haven't time for the whole article, I've copied the most relevent paragraphs below

Over the past century the indigenous inhabitants have dwindled. The rookery of seals that early explorers found at the entrance to Eyre Fjord, where Pío XI terminates, is long gone. The whales of many species that frequented these fjords now barely make up a biological quorum. A red tide plagues the mussels that once sustained the fishing economy. The Alacaluf Indians, who once hunted and fished here, have dwindled to a handful of disconsolate souls in Puerto Edén, a place whose only Edenic quality is its distance from the rest of the world.

Distance is no protection these days. After Norway, Chile is the world's largest producer of farmed sal­mon, which are grown in podlike cages anchored offshore in Las Guaitecas National Reserve near the Northern Ice Field. (What is legally pre­served in Guaitecas and other parks is the land, not the water.) The Norwegian companies that began salmon farming in Chile came here because the fjords were unspoiled. That is no longer the case. Like nearly every form of concentrated animal agriculture, salmon aquaculture creates an excess of waste. Here salmon farms deaden the water, creating anoxic conditions, and have led to the spread of a lethal salmon virus called infectious salmon anemia. The solution of the salmon-farming companies has simply been to move south into clean waters. Already the companies have taken out new leases on stretches of water throughout the southern fjords.                                                                                     

Riverman

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Re: Much More To Sea Lice Debate
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2010, 08:33:39 AM »

One thing I have found to be sad about this whole thing is that places like Chile are a far cry from the kind of democracy we pride ourselves on here.How we could have swallowed the Liberal line about bringing all these new jobs and prosperity with this industry.Some good jobs sure.but when the cost is so great in terms of what we hold so dear it is a shame there is not a mechanism that could have halted this in its tracks before the damage got to where it is today.
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Riverman

jon5hill

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Re: Much More To Sea Lice Debate
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2010, 05:14:29 PM »

One thing I have found to be sad about this whole thing is that places like Chile are a far cry from the kind of democracy we pride ourselves on here.How we could have swallowed the Liberal line about bringing all these new jobs and prosperity with this industry.Some good jobs sure.but when the cost is so great in terms of what we hold so dear it is a shame there is not a mechanism that could have halted this in its tracks before the damage got to where it is today.

The aquaculture industry creates relatively few jobs. Think of all the jobs required to maintain the pens if they were on land. In the ocean, this maintenance is free.
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aquapaloosa

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Re: Much More To Sea Lice Debate
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2010, 08:27:40 PM »

The aquaculture industry creates relatively few jobs. Think of all the jobs required to maintain the pens if they were on land. In the ocean, this maintenance is free.

My experience has been entirely different.  Fresh water is pretty much with out maintenance.  Salt water maintenance is rigorous on everything that comes in contact with it.

Relatively few jobs compared to what? 
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Chicken farm, pig farm, cow farm, fish farm.

StillAqua

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Re: Much More To Sea Lice Debate
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2010, 08:55:50 PM »

My experience has been entirely different.  Fresh water is pretty much with out maintenance.  Salt water maintenance is rigorous on everything that comes in contact with it.

Relatively few jobs compared to what? 

According to the recent DFO report on the economics of recirculting land-contained farming versus coastal ocean netcage farming, a land farm creates an average of 18 jobs while a net cage farm creates 10.
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aquapaloosa

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Re: Much More To Sea Lice Debate
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2010, 10:24:05 PM »

According to the recent DFO report on the economics of recirculting land-contained farming versus coastal ocean netcage farming, a land farm creates an average of 18 jobs while a net cage farm creates 10.

Maybe now but I think it would be fare to estimate that after some practice industry would whittle away at that number over over time which could mean a profit margin higher that 4%.
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Chicken farm, pig farm, cow farm, fish farm.

gordc

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Re: Much More To Sea Lice Debate
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2010, 09:57:31 AM »

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2010/12/03/1009573108.full.pdf+html

Curious what people think of Ms. Morton now?  I'm sure given her iperceived ntent people accept her slanderous approach.
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chris gadsden

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Re: Much More To Sea Lice Debate
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2010, 10:06:47 AM »

mykisscrazy

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Re: Much More To Sea Lice Debate Mark Hume Globe and Mail News Piece
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2010, 11:03:12 AM »

Sea lice not cause of wild salmon collapse, researchers say
MARK HUME
VANCOUVER— From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
Published Monday, Dec. 13, 2010 1:08PM EST
Last updated Monday, Dec. 13, 2010 10:12PM EST
Sea lice from farmed salmon are not to blame for a dramatic collapse of wild stocks on the West Coast, a trio of Canadian and U.S. researchers has concluded, using industry data previously not available to scientists.

The findings, published on Monday in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, are a major departure from a growing body of research that has pointed to sea lice from fish farms as key suspects in the decline of wild Pacific salmon in British Columbia.

Industry representatives say they hope the paper will change the tenor of the increasingly truculent debate in B.C., in which the aquaculture industry has been under attack for its environmental impact.

The report, by Gary Marty of the University of California, Davis, Sonja Saksida of the B.C. Centre for Aquatic Health Sciences and Terrance Quinn of the University of Alaska, is unequivocal: There is no direct correlation between the number of lice in salmon farms and the decline of wild stocks.

The lead author, Dr. Marty, said the researchers got unprecedented access to detailed fish health and farm productivity records from 26 fish farms in the Broughton Archipelago, off the northeast shoulder of Vancouver Island.

The data, which the industry has previously refused to release to researchers, covered 10 years for health information and 20 years for productivity, and were compared with 60 years of records showing the returns of wild pink salmon to nearby rivers.

“[Wild] salmon populations normally go up and down and our analysis shows that that is not affected by sea lice numbers or farmed fish harvest numbers,” Dr. Marty said.

“The data from Broughton Archipelago pink salmon populations and sea lice experiments best fit the conclusion that the majority of pink salmon deaths are caused by something other than sea lice, and our farm data supports the conclusion that farm lice did not significantly decrease pink salmon productivity over the past decade,” states the paper, which was edited by Carl Walters, a fisheries researcher at the University of B.C.

Dr. Marty, who has worked for the fish farming industry in the United States, said the finding means environmentalists’ demands that fish farms be moved away from the migratory routes of wild salmon are not justified.

“Based on the lack of evidence for a significant negative relationship between farm fish and pink salmon productivity, the data do not support the hypothesis that separating farm fish from wild fish will increase pink salmon marine survival,” the paper states.

The research did find, however, that fish farms grow a lot of sea lice, with two farms having an estimated 18.7 million lice in one monthly checkup.

And Dr. Marty said there is no doubt sea lice move from farms to wild fish in the spring, when juvenile salmon migrate past on their way to the open ocean.

But he said the reverse is also true, with adult wild salmon being the source of lice that infest farmed salmon in the fall.

Dr. Marty, whose colleague, Dr. Saksida, does contract work for fish farms in the study area, said the researchers did not determine what is causing wild stocks to collapse.

“Sea lice is one component to consider, but we need to have a broader look at what is going on,” he said, suggesting that more effort be put into examining diseases.

Alexandra Morton, a researcher and environmental activist who has published papers in science journals about the negative impact of sea lice on wild salmon, said she isn’t convinced by the research, which runs dramatically contrary to her findings.

“I did an extensive study on the impact of sea lice on juvenile wild salmon and I watched these fish die. You can’t convince me otherwise. It’s something I have observed,” she said.

“I think any fish pathologist would look at these fish [infested with sea lice] and say they are heavily compromised. And so this paper really should have given us some clue as to what killed these fish. To just put out that it was something different I think is, well, not credible,” Ms. Morton said.

Clare Backman, director of environmental compliance for Marine Harvest Canada, B.C.’s largest aquaculture company, said the study is welcome good news for the fish-farming industry.

“This paper does turn the argument around quite significantly,” said Mr. Backman, whose company is responsible for more than half the 80,000 tonnes of fresh salmon produced in B.C. each year.

“This report provides a counterargument to the simplistic statement that sea lice from salmon farms are the cause of the decline of some of the Pacific stocks,” he said.
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chris gadsden

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Re: Much More To Sea Lice Debate
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2010, 11:53:05 AM »

Please find enclosed a press update including a flurry of ‘Sea Lice Not Guilty’ articles following a new scientific paper:
 
“Where are we at with salmon feedlots” (Alexandra Morton, 14th December): http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2010/12/where-are-we-at-with-salmon-feedlots.html
 
“Study: Lice-Infested Farmed Salmon Not to Blame for Wild Salmon Die-Off” (Discover Magazine, 14th December): http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/12/14/study-lice-infested-farmed-salmon-not-to-blame-for-wild-salmon-die-off/
 
“Lice found not guilty of salmon decline” (New Scientist, 14th December): http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19867-lice-found-not-guilty-of-salmon-decline.html
 

Farmed salmon may not harm wild salmon
” (USA Today, 14th December): http://content.usatoday.com/communities/sciencefair/post/2010/12/farmed-salmon-may-not-harm-wild-salmon/1
 
“Sea lice not the cause of pink salmon crash” (Fish Farming Xpert, 14th December): http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=76&article_id=90058
 
“Sea lice not cause of salmon decline: study” (Business in Vancouver, 14th December): http://www.bivinteractive.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3506&Itemid=32
 
“DFO to assume broader role in BC aquaculture” (FIS, 14th December): http://www.fis.com/fis/worldnews/worldnews.asp?monthyear=&day=14&id=39702&l=e&special=&ndb=1%20target=
 
“Dramatic decline not caused by lice” (A News, 13th December): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1a0KpamxIQ
 

Fish-farm lice acquitted of killing wild fish: Sea lice from ocean pen farms might not be a menace to wild salmon
” (Nature, 13th December): http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101213/full/news.2010.669.html
 
“Cermaq CEO warns against too much treatment of salmon lice” (Intrafish, 13th December): http://www.intrafish.no/global/news/article280490.ece
 

Sea lice didn't hurt salmon in 2002: report
” (The Tyee, 13th December): http://thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/Food-Farming/2010/12/13/SeaLice/
 
“Sea lice 'not to blame for Pacific salmon decline'” (BBC, 13th December): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11984246
 
“Sea Lice not guilty” (CFJC TV7, 13th December): http://cfjctv.com/story.php?id=584
 
“Study acquits salmon-farm lice in crash of B.C. humpy run” (Anchorage Daily News, 13th December): http://www.adn.com/2010/12/13/1601991/study-acquits-salmon-farm-lice.html
 
“Pacific salmon not affected by lice: study” (CBC, 13th December): http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2010/12/13/science-salmon-study.html
 

Disputed study says sea lice didn’t kill 2002 salmon run
” (Toronto Star/Canadian Press, 13th December): http://www.thestar.com/news/sciencetech/environment/article/906320--disputed-study-says-sea-lice-didn-t-kill-2002-salmon-run and http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20101213/bc_sea_lice_study_101213/20101213?hub=BritishColumbiaHome
 
“Researchers: salmon farms didn't cause B.C. wild salmon collapse” (Intrafish, 13th December): http://www.intrafish.no/global/news/article280558.ece
 
“Rediscovering the known” (High Country News, 13th December): http://www.hcn.org/hcn/blogs/range/rediscovering-the-known
 
“New study disproves sea lice accusations in Broughton” (BC Salmon Farmers’ Association, 13th December): http://www.salmonfarmers.org/new-study-disproves-sea-lice-accusations-broughton
 
“Wild-salmon decline was not caused by sea lice from farm salmon” (University of California Davis, 13th December): http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=9698
 
“Federal government takes over B.C. fish farms” (Fish Farming Xpert, 13th December): http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=76&article_id=90049
 

Environmental groups fishing for fictitious facts: Wild salmon inquiry listens to a myriad of accusations thrown out in a witch hunt by members of the anti-salmon farming community and orders the release of confidential data - most of which have already been released to governments in an adequate manner
” (Fish Farming Xpert, 10th December): http://www.fishfarmingxpert.com/index.php?page_id=76&article_id=90033
 
“Thanks for the compliments, but....” (The Courier-Islander, 10th December):
http://www2.canada.com/courierislander/news/letters/story.html?id=566a3a98-9c7e-4368-b41a-903ed9e50e5e
 
“Salmon: these fish are survivors” (Campbell River Mirror, 9th December):
http://www.bclocalnews.com/vancouver_island_north/campbellrivermirror/community/111621234.html
 

Dave

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Re: Much More To Sea Lice Debate
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2010, 12:01:13 PM »

Quote.
Alexandra Morton, a researcher and environmental activist who has published papers in science journals about the negative impact of sea lice on wild salmon, said she isn’t convinced by the research, which runs dramatically contrary to her findings.

“I did an extensive study on the impact of sea lice on juvenile wild salmon and I watched these fish die. You can’t convince me otherwise. It’s something I have observed,” she said.

“I think any fish pathologist would look at these fish [infested with sea lice] and say they are heavily compromised. And so this paper really should have given us some clue as to what killed these fish. To just put out that it was something different I think is, well, not credible,” Ms. Morton said. End Quote


Credible?  not the best word for her to use.  Too bad this dynamic, energetic and passionate woman isn't directing her talents to other more pressing issues regarding wild salmon.. 

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Easywater

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Re: Much More To Sea Lice Debate Mark Hume Globe and Mail News Piece
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2010, 12:02:41 PM »

Sea lice not cause of wild salmon collapse, researchers say
MARK HUME
VANCOUVER— From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
Published Monday, Dec. 13, 2010 1:08PM EST
Last updated Monday, Dec. 13, 2010 10:12PM EST
Sea lice from farmed salmon are not to blame for a dramatic collapse of wild stocks on the West Coast, a trio of Canadian and U.S. researchers has concluded, using industry data previously not available to scientists.

The findings, published on Monday in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, are a major departure from a growing body of research that has pointed to sea lice from fish farms as key suspects in the decline of wild Pacific salmon in British Columbia.

Industry representatives say they hope the paper will change the tenor of the increasingly truculent debate in B.C., in which the aquaculture industry has been under attack for its environmental impact.

The report, by Gary Marty of the University of California, Davis, Sonja Saksida of the B.C. Centre for Aquatic Health Sciences and Terrance Quinn of the University of Alaska, is unequivocal: There is no direct correlation between the number of lice in salmon farms and the decline of wild stocks.

The lead author, Dr. Marty, said the researchers got unprecedented access to detailed fish health and farm productivity records from 26 fish farms in the Broughton Archipelago, off the northeast shoulder of Vancouver Island.

The data, which the industry has previously refused to release to researchers, covered 10 years for health information and 20 years for productivity, and were compared with 60 years of records showing the returns of wild pink salmon to nearby rivers.

“[Wild] salmon populations normally go up and down and our analysis shows that that is not affected by sea lice numbers or farmed fish harvest numbers,” Dr. Marty said.

“The data from Broughton Archipelago pink salmon populations and sea lice experiments best fit the conclusion that the majority of pink salmon deaths are caused by something other than sea lice, and our farm data supports the conclusion that farm lice did not significantly decrease pink salmon productivity over the past decade,” states the paper, which was edited by Carl Walters, a fisheries researcher at the University of B.C.

Dr. Marty, who has worked for the fish farming industry in the United States, said the finding means environmentalists’ demands that fish farms be moved away from the migratory routes of wild salmon are not justified.

“Based on the lack of evidence for a significant negative relationship between farm fish and pink salmon productivity, the data do not support the hypothesis that separating farm fish from wild fish will increase pink salmon marine survival,” the paper states.

The research did find, however, that fish farms grow a lot of sea lice, with two farms having an estimated 18.7 million lice in one monthly checkup.

And Dr. Marty said there is no doubt sea lice move from farms to wild fish in the spring, when juvenile salmon migrate past on their way to the open ocean.

But he said the reverse is also true, with adult wild salmon being the source of lice that infest farmed salmon in the fall.

Dr. Marty, whose colleague, Dr. Saksida, does contract work for fish farms in the study area, said the researchers did not determine what is causing wild stocks to collapse.

“Sea lice is one component to consider, but we need to have a broader look at what is going on,” he said, suggesting that more effort be put into examining diseases.

Alexandra Morton, a researcher and environmental activist who has published papers in science journals about the negative impact of sea lice on wild salmon, said she isn’t convinced by the research, which runs dramatically contrary to her findings.

“I did an extensive study on the impact of sea lice on juvenile wild salmon and I watched these fish die. You can’t convince me otherwise. It’s something I have observed,” she said.

“I think any fish pathologist would look at these fish [infested with sea lice] and say they are heavily compromised. And so this paper really should have given us some clue as to what killed these fish. To just put out that it was something different I think is, well, not credible,” Ms. Morton said.

Clare Backman, director of environmental compliance for Marine Harvest Canada, B.C.’s largest aquaculture company, said the study is welcome good news for the fish-farming industry.

“This paper does turn the argument around quite significantly,” said Mr. Backman, whose company is responsible for more than half the 80,000 tonnes of fresh salmon produced in B.C. each year.

“This report provides a counterargument to the simplistic statement that sea lice from salmon farms are the cause of the decline of some of the Pacific stocks,” he said.


All competely unbiased people:

Dr. Marty, who has worked for the fish farming industry in the United States

Sonja Saksida of the B.C. Centre for Aquatic Health Sciences - DFO flunky -http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/aquaculture/rd2009/rdsealice-pou_02-eng.htm
Also industry flunky "Saksida, as part of her private veterinary practice over the past 15 years, has done contract work for all three fish farm companies that operate in the study area"
http://fundytides.blogspot.com/

Terrence Quinn - seemed to be against farming then changed his mind.
http://mari-biotech.nstl.gov.cn/MirrorResources/6217/index.html

Large-scale mariculture activities (farming of fish, shrimp, and other marine organisms)—especially if they are poorly managed—also can affect marine ecosystems through damage to coastal wetlands and nearshore ecosystems associated with the construction of shore-based or nearshore facilities; through contamination of the water with food, antibiotics, and waste; and through the introduction of diseases and exotic genotypes.
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