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[KP]

So here I am sitting my butt in front of this damn machine scrolling through all the chit chat on this particular topic and my mind wanders and I daydream about finding that phone booth that Doctor Who character has so as I could use it to go back sixty or seventy years and spend a liesurely afternoon fishing the Wack.   Snap,  Here i am 2011 reading all the garp about this and that and it dawns on me what the problem is.  Now wether it's fence posting or walking in below someone, it's to many people fishing and none of us have a reasonable expectation of catching a fish on any given day.  I know a few go home with good feelings in there heart and even fewer with a chromer in the trunk for supper but.  For the majority we are muttering under our breath about this guy or that guy and have lost prospective on what was probably a better day fishing rather that working.

So what to do.  Well we can continue to do what we are doing now which is criticising what others are doing around us and don't get me wrong, on the Wack it's a dog eat dog river.  If I walk into a run and a spot is open and I think a fish is sitting in a particular lie I'm gonna catch the silver devil.  Don't be mad that my read produced a fish in the run you are fishing, you were there first so a little thing about snoozing and losing come to mind.  And on the Wack it is a dog eat dog river.  Never used to be back in the sixties and seventies but a little thing called population growth and something else I will start into are the culprits.  Like the saying goes, "don't hate the player, hate the game"

My feeling is when I go fishing I would like to have a reasonable expectation of catching a fish.   Not that I want to catch fish every time I go out but I would like to have a reasonable expectation.  Back in the early seventies everyone noticed a major decline in the number of spawning steelhead and everything else for that matter and as a result some of us started to do a little thing called catch and release.   Well the provincial bureaucrats caught on and we then entered into an arrangemet where by we would need to have catch and release region and in some case province wide until such time as stocks rebuilt to a level where the restrictions could be lifted.  That was in the mid seventies.  Now here we are in 2011 and we still have province wide catch and release and on some rivers like the Thompson we have total periodic closures.  My own assessment of those temporary catch and release regulations are that IT"S NOT WORKING.  I know of too many rivers in the lower mainland that stocks either continue downward out of control or because they don't have a way that they can confidently assess wild steelhead stocks they keep the regulations in place.   

This takes us to our problem on the Wack.  Because it is the only reasonably successful hatchery program in the lower mainland and because everyone who fishes would like a reasonable expectation of catching a fish and because catch and release has not worked we are where we are right now.  Too many fishers and too few fish so what do we do.  We do what humans always do in this situation, we complain to one another.  We need to start dealing with the problem.  Too many rivers with not enough fish to entice anglers who want the reasonable expectation scenario.

So where do we go from here.  Here's a few ideas.  We need to continue with catch and release because the gene pool we have left with all the wild fish in a given river is our money in the bank.  Next we need to revisit the provincial guidelines on no hatchery type program on a river unless all wild stocks on that system or river are extinct.   Now I'm no geneticist but the few I've talked to are unanimous that the genetically adapted wild fish in a particular river are the best building blocks to recover a stock.  Hands down success drops off exponentially if no wild fish are available to rebuild.  Next is we need to come up with a way to assess steelhead spawners in given areas.  How?  How about asking anglers to walk a given river or area once a week to actually count the spawners.  Like 1,2,3,4... most of us count.  Lastly government is usually all about no money.  Well I say get the frak out of the way and we will find interest groups and people who have money for causes they hold dear because we all know they are tired of giving to government and no return is evident.

To end it all I can say is unless we the angler put government to task to either get things done or get out of the way so we can ourselves only recourse it to continue as we are now which is a dog eat dog river as far as the Wack goes.

[bigblue]

KP, that was a great post!

When I think about steelhead fishing, I think about how different our current situation might be if steelhead was classified as a salmon instead of trout when it was first discovered by some biologist long time ago.  It's management would have fallen under the federal government like other pacific salmon and they would be better managed from the perspective of an average angler.

Urban rivers are no longer natural rivers and they need hatchery programs to support the tens of thousands of anglers, natives and commercial fisherman wanting a piece of the pie. I live close to the Capilano River and go there often, many times just to go for a walk more than fishing. When I go salmon fishing there in fall, I rarely if ever get skunked. Whereas, when I go steelhead fishing, I don't expect to catch anything. Fishing is abysmal for both experienced locals and newbies alike. In winter I go fishing for an hour or two to just get some fresh air and have a chat with some of the regulars at the river. I think steelheading situation is not much different at other urban rivers in Greater Vancouver area. That is why so many people get crammed into the Vedder this time of the season and all etiquette flies out the window.

Could the situation be different? I am not a biologist, but I think yes. At the Capilano Hatchery, the numbers are there for everyone to see. Every year they release 600,000 coho smolts, 600,000 spring smolts and only 15,000 steelhead smolts. That is why we have good salmon fishing and dysmal steehead fishing despite 10 years of steelhead catch and release on the river. The numbers are probably similar for other urban rivers in GVR. They all have lousy steelhead fishing.

If the provincial governent is not going to do anything about steelhead fishing in GVR, they might as well turn over the responsibility to the federal government.
 

[steelie-slayer]

Could the situation be different? I am not a biologist, but I think yes. At the Capilano Hatchery, the numbers are there for everyone to see. Every year they release 600,000 coho smolts, 600,000 spring smolts and only 15,000 steelhead smolts. That is why we have good salmon fishing and dysmal steehead fishing despite 10 years of steelhead catch and release on the river. The numbers are probably similar for other urban rivers in GVR. They all have lousy steelhead fishing.

If the provincial governent is not going to do anything about steelhead fishing in GVR, they might as well turn over the responsibility to the federal government.
 

The fact that only 15,000 steelhead smolts blows me away, because alot of them will not be coming back, and alot of anglers will keep them even if its catch and release. And the fact that 600,000 chinook and coho smolts are relased, just makes the salmon fishery go up in number of anglers, and then steelhead angler numbers go up  which brings the flossers and snaggers out in winter for steelhead, because they think that steelhead are like a salmon thousands of thousands of them in the river, and as they think willing to bite a bare hook.  I understand steelhead are considered challinging and you shouldnt go with an attitude of catching one etc. but if say every 2nd year they relased 30,000 steelies smolts, and continue catch and relase only, but keep something like this on the down low, then guys would get rewarded with a fish more often, and learn you can catch a fish without the need of 5 foot leaders and huge weights.

[Dave]

So here I am sitting my butt in front of this damn machine scrolling through all the chit chat on this particular topic and my mind wanders and I daydream about finding that phone booth that Doctor Who character has so as I could use it to go back sixty or seventy years and spend a liesurely afternoon fishing the Wack.   Snap,  Here i am 2011 reading all the garp about this and that and it dawns on me what the problem is.  Now wether it's fence posting or walking in below someone, it's to many people fishing and none of us have a reasonable expectation of catching a fish on any given day.  I know a few go home with good feelings in there heart and even fewer with a chromer in the trunk for supper but.  For the majority we are muttering under our breath about this guy or that guy and have lost prospective on what was probably a better day fishing rather that working.

So what to do.  Well we can continue to do what we are doing now which is criticising what others are doing around us and don't get me wrong, on the Wack it's a dog eat dog river.  If I walk into a run and a spot is open and I think a fish is sitting in a particular lie I'm gonna catch the silver devil.  Don't be mad that my read produced a fish in the run you are fishing, you were there first so a little thing about snoozing and losing come to mind.  And on the Wack it is a dog eat dog river.  Never used to be back in the sixties and seventies but a little thing called population growth and something else I will start into are the culprits.  Like the saying goes, "don't hate the player, hate the game"

My feeling is when I go fishing I would like to have a reasonable expectation of catching a fish.   Not that I want to catch fish every time I go out but I would like to have a reasonable expectation.  Back in the early seventies everyone noticed a major decline in the number of spawning steelhead and everything else for that matter and as a result some of us started to do a little thing called catch and release.   Well the provincial bureaucrats caught on and we then entered into an arrangemet where by we would need to have catch and release region and in some case province wide until such time as stocks rebuilt to a level where the restrictions could be lifted.  That was in the mid seventies.  Now here we are in 2011 and we still have province wide catch and release and on some rivers like the Thompson we have total periodic closures.  My own assessment of those temporary catch and release regulations are that IT"S NOT WORKING.  I know of too many rivers in the lower mainland that stocks either continue downward out of control or because they don't have a way that they can confidently assess wild steelhead stocks they keep the regulations in place.   

This takes us to our problem on the Wack.  Because it is the only reasonably successful hatchery program in the lower mainland and because everyone who fishes would like a reasonable expectation of catching a fish and because catch and release has not worked we are where we are right now.  Too many fishers and too few fish so what do we do.  We do what humans always do in this situation, we complain to one another.  We need to start dealing with the problem.  Too many rivers with not enough fish to entice anglers who want the reasonable expectation scenario.

So where do we go from here.  Here's a few ideas.  We need to continue with catch and release because the gene pool we have left with all the wild fish in a given river is our money in the bank.  Next we need to revisit the provincial guidelines on no hatchery type program on a river unless all wild stocks on that system or river are extinct.   Now I'm no geneticist but the few I've talked to are unanimous that the genetically adapted wild fish in a particular river are the best building blocks to recover a stock.  Hands down success drops off exponentially if no wild fish are available to rebuild.  Next is we need to come up with a way to assess steelhead spawners in given areas.  How?  How about asking anglers to walk a given river or area once a week to actually count the spawners.  Like 1,2,3,4... most of us count.  Lastly government is usually all about no money.  Well I say get the frak out of the way and we will find interest groups and people who have money for causes they hold dear because we all know they are tired of giving to government and no return is evident.

To end it all I can say is unless we the angler put government to task to either get things done or get out of the way so we can ourselves only recourse it to continue as we are now which is a dog eat dog river as far as the Wack goes.

[Dave]

Sorry, blew a tire there   Meant to say Wow, excellent post KP.  Especially like your thoughts on genetics and enumerations.
Yeah, I remember how it was on the Vedder ....

[bigblue]

The fact that only 15,000 steelhead smolts blows me away, because alot of them will not be coming back, and alot of anglers will keep them even if its catch and release. And the fact that 600,000 chinook and coho smolts are relased, just makes the salmon fishery go up in number of anglers, and then steelhead angler numbers go up  which brings the flossers and snaggers out in winter for steelhead, because they think that steelhead are like a salmon thousands of thousands of them in the river, and as they think willing to bite a bare hook.  I understand steelhead are considered challinging and you shouldnt go with an attitude of catching one etc. but if say every 2nd year they relased 30,000 steelies smolts, and continue catch and relase only, but keep something like this on the down low, then guys would get rewarded with a fish more often, and learn you can catch a fish without the need of 5 foot leaders and huge weights.

We will never go back to the good old days in fishing, because there are just so much more people fishing and they will NOT go away.

This trend towards greater public participation is not limited to sports fishing, but also golf and many other sports just to name of few.
I grew up both fishing and golfing and I learned both from my father more than 30 years ago, including etiquette.
But when I look at both today, it is a totally different world than when I first started.
Times have changed and people who come in today, come from sometimes different backgrounds and attitudes.
Many have not been taught by their dad or uncle how to fish properly.
Often they go to Walmart or Canadian Tire and buy a rod and reel combo and just hit the river so to speak.

Yes, I agree that better enforcement and education is needed, but at the same time more supply is needed.
If Vedder didn't have it's 130,000 or so smolts released every year, would we have the level of steelhead fishing there? I think not.
Whether we like it or not, all urban habitats are managed ones and urban rivers are no different.
Better management is needed.

I think things can be improved for an average steelhead fisherman in GVRD.

[Bavarian Raven]

We will never go back to the good old days in fishing, because there are just so much more people fishing and they will NOT go away.

well never say never, a plague could wipe out 99.9% of humans if we are lucky  

now time to chip in my 3 cents. (i had a nice long post written up (3 or 4 times what you see below, but it dissapeared  so Now i post my summary of what I had written)


imo, part of the problem (besides the general lack of regulations being followed   ) is a lack of caring in the government. Sure they will make some taxes off of us sport fishermen, but in the grander scheme of things, we are a tiny consideration. if I were in charge, I would have every major river (and minor river thats worth while) in the Fraser Valley being stocked annually. I would organize cleanups for the smaller rivers (like the Brunette River and the such). Even small streams/rivers, when healthy will add large numbers of fish to the overall populations and nutrients to the river. Which in turn would allow for more fishing (commerial and recreational) alike. and in turn, more tax income.

 I would also invest in fish ladders around ALL the dams in the Fraser Valley that use to have fish runs (ie, te Stave, Coquitlam and the such).

I would also set maximum size regulations on all species of fish (trout and salmon and the such) in the Fraser Valley, (the trout that grew to be fifteen pounds obviously has good genes that should be passed on etc...) This, hopefully, with tighter restrictions on the number of fish kept and harsher penalties would help increase the overall fish population.


But alas this is just wishful thinking  

[bigblue]

well never say never, a plague could wipe out 99.9% of humans if we are lucky  

I stand corrected.

It is 'highly unlikely' that we will go back to the good old days of fishing.

[juice]

  I had a beak with his river mechanic tackle box, jean jacket and wallyworld waders set down and decide that he was gonna fish right at the end of my swing, (skagit head 27', 15sink tip, and 12" leader to fly), Thats about 42 feet.  I graciously told him that it wasn't ethical to low hole me and the guy cp fishing 40 feet above me. He said nothing, so I asked if he could hear me.  He said yes. I explained that you start at the head of a run and work your way down when theres people fishing it. He Smoked his smoke then picked up his toolbox and went to the head of the run.
I don't wanna be a prick out there but, "Nice fish", thinks 20' below is lowholing.  The runs in the vedder are mostly 60'-100'.  I get really choked and don't even wanna fish when some unknowing beak, or some ignorant local who thinks he owns the river walks into a run below me.  Just don't do it. 

[alwaysfishn]

  I had a beak with his river mechanic tackle box, jean jacket and wallyworld waders set down and decide that he was gonna fish right at the end of my swing, (skagit head 27', 15sink tip, and 12" leader to fly), Thats about 42 feet.  I graciously told him that it wasn't ethical to low hole me and the guy cp fishing 40 feet above me. He said nothing, so I asked if he could hear me.  He said yes. I explained that you start at the head of a run and work your way down when theres people fishing it. He Smoked his smoke then picked up his toolbox and went to the head of the run.
I don't wanna be a prick out there but, "Nice fish", thinks 20' below is lowholing.  The runs in the vedder are mostly 60'-100'.  I get really choked and don't even wanna fish when some unknowing beak, or some ignorant local who thinks he owns the river walks into a run below me.  Just don't do it. 

Wow you must be getting "choked" everytime you go to the Vedder. Doesn't that hurt after a while?   

[Rodney]

People who drive faster than me are maniacs, people who drive slower than me are idiots. I am the model driver, unlike everyone else on the road.

[Every Day]

Wow you must be getting "choked" everytime you go to the Vedder. Doesn't that hurt after a while?   

Why do you guys have this idea of the Vedder?
Just because you and NiceFish don't care (and probably do it by the way you are posting), doesn't mean other people will do it too.
I very rarely get people walking in below me at less than 100 feet, and if they do I go around them and go right below them.

I for one have many enjoyable days on the river, and I'm sure that juice probably does too.
We just get annoyed when a select few think it's ok to walk in right below us.

[alwaysfishn]

Why do you guys have this idea of the Vedder?
Just because you and NiceFish don't care (and probably do it by the way you are posting), doesn't mean other people will do it too.
I very rarely get people walking in below me at less than 100 feet, and if they do I go around them and go right below them.

I for one have many enjoyable days on the river, and I'm sure that juice probably does too.
We just get annoyed when a select few think it's ok to walk in right below us.

Most days on the Vedder are very enjoyable for me as well. However they are enjoyable because I don't take it too seriously when someone low holes me....

[NiceFish]

My days on the vedder are also very enjoyable. I often fish alone for most of the day, while I did say I would cut in someone in a crowded area at about 100 feet, I quite usually choose to fish in un occupied water...just more "peaceful" for me. I'm not going fishing to fight or get stressed out, that is for sure. I'm going to enjoy myself, and I most certainly wouldn't come out of no where to low hole someone when there are plenty of other areas to fish, but if all the water is occupied ...it's.....how KP said "dog eat dog"

[bigblue]

Despite complaints by some anglers, I think we are fortunate to have a river like Vedder/Chilliwack in the lower mainland where a competent and well prepared fisherman have a reasonable chance to hook a steelhead on a given day. I would love to go to Vedder, but difficulty of taking a full day off from work have made me stick to my local rivers where I fish two hours a day or so between work and family duties. There are very few anglers fishing on my local river at this time, I know most of them by face, there are no ill mannered people, it is very pleasant, BUT there are also very few steelhead even though it is a catch and release river.

Despite occasional ill mannered anglers, folks fishing the Vedder/Chilliwack should consider yourself lucky! Tight lines!