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Author Topic: 2011 Fraser Sockeye Forecast  (Read 9291 times)

VAGAbond

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2011 Fraser Sockeye Forecast
« on: April 15, 2011, 06:53:07 PM »

Is there any forecast issued yet?

I hear speculation of 5 year fish holding over from last year's run giving us another bonus year.
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Dave

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Re: 2011 Fraser Sockeye Forecast
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2011, 09:51:20 PM »


I hear speculation of 5 year fish holding over from last year's run giving us another bonus year.

And I have a bridge for sale ;D ;D ;D
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chris gadsden

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Re: 2011 Fraser Sockeye Forecast
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2011, 09:54:47 PM »

shuswapsteve

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Re: 2011 Fraser Sockeye Forecast
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2011, 10:27:46 PM »

Forecast won't be released for a little while yet.  The thing that was circulated around already was not the forecast.

The majority of Fraser Sockeye are 4 year olds.  This dominance by 4 year olds has not changed much - historically speaking.  Five year olds make up a smaller percentage in all years and are most prevalent in systems like the Upper Pitt.
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jon5hill

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Re: 2011 Fraser Sockeye Forecast
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2011, 01:04:56 AM »

Forecasting Sockeye is so hit and miss, it's a wonder why anyone tries to build models to predict them at all. Especially when dealing with a complex system like the Fraser, which is composed of multiple stocks operating semi-independently. Most models are over-parameterized and inaccurate. Mathematical ecologists can get out of control with differential equations in a hurry - so I would look at any models you do find with extreme skepticism.

In-season management is the best way of assessing the run size - as the fish come in - you see how many there are and respond accordingly. Trying to anticipate the run before it arrives is, in my view, a completely useless practice. Out of hundreds of models predicting Sockeye returns, none of them are consistently accurate - most are wrong most of the time.

My 2 bits.
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shuswapsteve

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Re: 2011 Fraser Sockeye Forecast
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2011, 01:26:07 PM »

Forecasting is only one part of the whole stock assessment cycle.  It gets the most attention in the press, but there are other steps along the way.  Although I agree that forecasts of this nature can be very uncertain they are part of the preseason planning process (i.e. commercial, First Nations and sport fisheries; conservation concerns, etc.).  As Sockeye stocks begin to show up, test fisheries, catch monitoring and stock assessment crews on the spawning grounds provide data for inseason management to adjust forecasted abundances and fisheries if required.  Following the inseason stock assessment, there is post season evaluations where total run sizes are determined.  This includes harvest rates and escapement to the spawning grounds.

Most models are over-parameterized and inaccurate?  First, you need to understand there are groups of two groups of forecasting models – non-parametric and parametric.  Second, you need to understand the differences between non-parametric vs. parametric models for forecasting before a discussion can be started on what is inaccurate.  Non-parametric models forecast future returns based on historical time series (i.e. cycle year averages).  There is no biological basis for this group of models.  For instance, with miscellaneous stocks (i.e. Early Shuswap stocks), recruitment data is often very limited or non-existent; thus, you can only use non-parametric models.  On the other hand, parametric models (or biological models) incorporate stock-recruitment data; thus, require parameter estimation.  These biological models include: Ricker, Larkin and Power.  Chilko, Upper Pitt and Adams are examples of stocks that would use biological models.  These models can also incorporate environmental information.  In the 2010 forecast, 11 non-parametric models and 3 biological models where used – not hundreds.  The can be variations to a particular model (i.e. Ricker), but it is basically the same group of model.

The people doing these forecasts are not "getting out of control with differential equations in a hurry".  The process to obtain these forecasts goes through a rigorous and lengthy set of events (one of them being the Pacific Regional Science Advisory Process) before they are released to fisheries managers and the general public.  These processes involve non-DFO individuals also.  The recommendations from this process can influence the final forecast report, so the actual forecasters are not the only people involved.

If you read the 2010 forecast you will see that they attempt to chose the best models that perform the best.  Models are rated based on their historical performance predicting abundance of certain stocks (called retrospective analysis).  Some models perform better than others; however, one particular model that is good for one stock may not be good for another.  Forecasters fully realize that the performances of models are based on the assumptions underlying them.  Without question variability in survival rates in recent years and our knowledge of the first month of saltwater life of juvenile salmonids have made forecasting very challenging.  Forecasts are commonly reported in the press and for fisheries management at the 50% probability, but in reality forecasts are a range of probabilities from 10% to 90% and should be reported as such.  The reason is simple – you cannot put a single value to such uncertainty.  It misleads the public and does not fully appreciate the variability involved.  What the hell does 25% or whatever percent probability mean?  Well, for example, there would be a one in four chance at the 25% probability level that the actual number of returning Sockeye will be at or below value given the assumption of future survival.

It should be noted that 2010 forecast attempted to address this uncertainty by assessing 3 different scenarios: Long Term Average Productivity; Recent Productivity; and Productivity Equivalent to the 2005 Brood Year.  Due to the highly uncertain survival rates in recent years and what happened in 2009, “Recent Productivity” was chosen as a more conservative approach.  However, in 2010, Fraser Sockeye did completely the opposite.  If the Long-Term approach (which has been used before, like 2009) forecast was adopted it would have been more in line with what came back in 2010 at the 90% probability.

Whether a person agrees or disagrees with forecasting I think it is important for the public to have some basic understanding and appreciation on what is involved.
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Dave

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Re: 2011 Fraser Sockeye Forecast
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2011, 02:46:39 PM »

Whether a person agrees or disagrees with forecasting I think it is important for the public to have some basic understanding and appreciation on what is involved.
And so do I.  Let me say it one more time - get your butt into Communications ;)  No, on second thought they would stifle you ... and really, you're already doing their job.
An excellent and informative post SS.
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StillAqua

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Re: 2011 Fraser Sockeye Forecast
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2011, 08:33:38 PM »

Whether a person agrees or disagrees with forecasting I think it is important for the public to have some basic understanding and appreciation on what is involved.

Very thorough Shuswap Steve but I think the type of forecasting the recreational public and commercial fisheries need most is a forecast of future fishing opportunities. Numbers of returning sockeye plus or minus a large error margin isn't very useful when what they really want to know is "can they go fishing this season" and "how often" and "when". Something like "we expect limited commercial sockeye harvests on summer run sockeye and no recreational fishing opportunities for Fraser sockeye in 2011". Times have changed since last year's big run and there are now a lot of hungry meat fisherman looking to go flossing again this year (no offence to the flossers that is) that want to know.
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shuswapsteve

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Re: 2011 Fraser Sockeye Forecast
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2011, 09:40:14 PM »

I hear you, but that is what the forecast is kind of intended for (i.e. help determining fishing opportunities for the upcoming year).  As I was saying before, forecasting is only just one part of the stock assessment cycle.  Think of the forecast as the original plan you start out with and as time goes by, and more information comes in, you refine it more.  The forecast can be wrong, but inseason monitoring as mentioned already is there to make adjustments.  Canada is also obligated under the Pacific Salmon Treaty to forecast abundances.  When inseason abundances become available, the Fraser River Panel receives advice from and related technical committees and the Pacific Salmon Commission staff.  Technical committees review inseason data weekly (including data collected from catch monitoring and stock assessment crews on the spawning grounds) and make recommendations to the Fraser River Panel.  The panel can make adjustments to the original forecast adopting a more precautionary approach if needed if run strength is not there or allow for fisheries amongst different stakeholders.  These panels and technical committees are made of representatives from the US and Canada and can include DFO and non-DFO; including representation as well as individuals from the Pacific Salmon Commission.

Unless there are new techniques to do a better job of crystal balling preseason I do not believe it is really possible for forecasts to answer your questions so early (i.e. "can they go fishing this season" and "how often" and "when").  That would truly have to be a remarkable forecast.  Think about the information that would have to be known in order to come up with that sort of prediction.  How do you predict marine survival which has been so variable?  As John correctly eluded to, that is why inseason monitoring is so important.

I will post something from Dr. Randall Peterman.  I believe if you read his article it will help tie things together for you.  It may seem technical but actually it is kind of insightful, so I would encourage anyone with questions regarding forecasting to read it.

http://www.sfu.ca/cstudies/science/resources/adaptingtochange/Peterman2008-Pre-seasonForecasting.pdf



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shuswapsteve

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Re: 2011 Fraser Sockeye Forecast
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2011, 09:41:32 PM »

And so do I.  Let me say it one more time - get your butt into Communications ;)  No, on second thought they would stifle you ... and really, you're already doing their job.
An excellent and informative post SS.

 ;).......  ;D
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StillAqua

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Re: 2011 Fraser Sockeye Forecast
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2011, 09:15:38 AM »

Unless there are new techniques to do a better job of crystal balling preseason I do not believe it is really possible for forecasts to answer your questions so early (i.e. "can they go fishing this season" and "how often" and "when").  That would truly have to be a remarkable forecast.  Think about the information that would have to be known in order to come up with that sort of prediction.  How do you predict marine survival which has been so variable?  As John correctly eluded to, that is why in-season monitoring is so important.

I will post something from Dr. Randall Peterman.  I believe if you read his article it will help tie things together for you.  It may seem technical but actually it is kind of insightful, so I would encourage anyone with questions regarding forecasting to read it.

Interesting article, not technical at all (I thought). Peterman sort of makes my point in his last paragraph, that the forecasts are highly uncertain and that this needs to be communicated to the various stakeholders in a way they can understand. Even though the forecasts are explaining less than 36% of the annual variations, it's still useful information to know what the returns are most likely to be like. The public doesn't do well with probability distributions (otherwise they wouldn't play the lotto) but some sort of fuzzy forecast would still be useful. I thought Peterman's analogy to weather forecasting was good.....we don't expect Environment Canada to tell us in January what the weather will be like on Canada Day but they do suggest what the next couple seasons are most likely to be like (e.g. colder, wetter). But if the forecasts are so unreliable for the weather and salmon, then maybe we should do them but shouldn't release them at all.
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Richmond

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Re: 2011 Fraser Sockeye Forecast
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2011, 09:20:34 AM »

it will be 20 million socks, and the chum will have a huge run aswell.
think positive.
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joska

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Re: 2011 Fraser Sockeye Forecast
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2011, 05:36:13 PM »

it will be 20 million socks, and the chum will have a huge run aswell.
think positive.
that a boy.. i like that way of thinking
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