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[jon5hill]

What's the difference between "snagging" a fish yourself to fill your freezer versus having a commercial or native fisherman snag the fish (using a net) so you can buy it? Why should a person who "snags" his own fish be any more concerned about the cost of his gas and equipment than any person who goes fishing?

I know you are trying to make the point that you disapprove of the Fraser sockeye fishery, however your points are illogical and only make you sound elitist. The techniques you use and the amount you spend to go fishing are no better or worse than the techniques the "dumb" people use, or what it costs them to "fill their freezer". 

What I am saying is not a rationalization of the commercial or native "snagging" with nets, it's a cost assessment. The reasoning is based in economics, and assuming people generally don't like throwing money in the trash can, it would be illogical to spend more resources than necessary on something unless you derive some external value from it.  When people invoke the "filling the freezer" argument - this is my counter argument. That is all I'm saying here..

[marmot]

What I am saying is not a rationalization of the commercial or native "snagging" with nets, it's a cost assessment. The reasoning is based in economics, and assuming people generally don't like throwing money in the trash can, it would be illogical to spend more resources than necessary on something unless you derive some external value from it.  When people invoke the "filling the freezer" argument - this is my counter argument. That is all I'm saying here..

Costs me a total of about $10 in fuel to get where I need to go and back, I'm gone for about 3 hours after my work day when I want to relax, and I rarely lose gear...maybe a betty every trip.  I go with a buddy so divide the fuel costs in half... so maybe $7 for two sockeye and I know exactly how well they were taken care of prior to consumption.

To boot, I enjoy being on the river regardless of what I'm doing, I see no problem with the harvest aspect of it and I do enjoy fighting the fish.  You can pretend that a fish hooked "outside" the mouth fights differently than one hooked "inside" the mouth if you like, but you aren't fooling anyone.  The fight is still enjoyable and anyone that says they don't derive at least some enjoyment from it is full of it. 

The biggest problem is not flossing itself but the regulation of it.  The regs are currently inadequate in terms of protecting other fisheries from being affected by the methods employed by flossing.  Since nobody seems to want to push flossing specific regulations and would rather remain divided on the issue of whether it's OK or not, not much positive change is likely.  To me it is rather funny that the same guys that push for fly/gear/bait guys to pull together and fight as one rather than remain divided are also the ones that polarize themselves on the flossing issues.  Get off the pedestal and do something effective like email DFO about regulation changes that might help to prevent flossing from spilling over into other systems.  Fighting flossing or ridiculing people who choose to participate in it won't get anyone anywhere.

[jon5hill]

Costs me a total of about $10 in fuel to get where I need to go and back, I'm gone for about 3 hours after my work day when I want to relax, and I rarely lose gear...maybe a betty every trip.  I go with a buddy so divide the fuel costs in half... so maybe $7 for two sockeye and I know exactly how well they were taken care of prior to consumption.

To boot, I enjoy being on the river regardless of what I'm doing, I see no problem with the harvest aspect of it and I do enjoy fighting the fish.  You can pretend that a fish hooked "outside" the mouth fights differently than one hooked "inside" the mouth if you like, but you aren't fooling anyone.  The fight is still enjoyable and anyone that says they don't derive at least some enjoyment from it is full of it.  

The biggest problem is not flossing itself but the regulation of it.  The regs are currently inadequate in terms of protecting other fisheries from being affected by the methods employed by flossing.  Since nobody seems to want to push flossing specific regulations and would rather remain divided on the issue of whether it's OK or not, not much positive change is likely.  To me it is rather funny that the same guys that push for fly/gear/bait guys to pull together and fight as one rather than remain divided are also the ones that polarize themselves on the flossing issues.  Get off the pedestal and do something effective like email DFO about regulation changes that might help to prevent flossing from spilling over into other systems.  Fighting flossing or ridiculing people who choose to participate in it won't get anyone anywhere.

So it is OK for you to go and do it, but you want to prevent it from going on in other systems? and ridiculing people is bad.. there's like 4 inherent contradictions here. Also - I don't buy your economic assessment one bit, like hell you spend 7 dollars to get 2 sockeye and go home. How many trips do you go and get nothing, how much did you spend on the rod, reel, and line? Lunches, gasoline, all sorts of other costs you are not addressing. I admire your honesty though, you're the first one to admit that you love flossing because you think it is enjoyable. However, I do think pulling in a fish backwards/from its dorsal fin/side/neck/eyeball/anus feels significantly different on the line than a mouth hook up. Maybe that's just me.

[StillAqua]

The biggest problem is not flossing itself but the regulation of it.  The regs are currently inadequate in terms of protecting other fisheries from being affected by the methods employed by flossing.  Since nobody seems to want to push flossing specific regulations and would rather remain divided on the issue of whether it's OK or not, not much positive change is likely.  To me it is rather funny that the same guys that push for fly/gear/bait guys to pull together and fight as one rather than remain divided are also the ones that polarize themselves on the flossing issues.  Get off the pedestal and do something effective like email DFO about regulation changes that might help to prevent flossing from spilling over into other systems.  Fighting flossing or ridiculing people who choose to participate in it won't get anyone anywhere.

I don't think anyone would get much traction with DFO arguing that flossing isn't ethical; they're obviously managing it as a fishery, a fish harvest, and not as a recreational sport activity. I think the only argument that could get them to change the regs would be if they could be convinced that the incidental by-catch of endangered sockeye, chinook, coho, etc. from flossing is negatively affecting weak fish stocks during the "sport" fishery. I've heard the anecdotal reports of guys on the rivers but is anyone, including DFO, actually collecting enough hard data to document it?

[marmot]

So it is OK for you to go and do it, but you want to prevent it from going on in other systems? and ridiculing people is bad.. there's like 4 inherent contradictions here. Also - I don't buy your economic assessment one bit, like hell you spend 7 dollars to get 2 sockeye and go home. How many trips do you go and get nothing, how much did you spend on the rod, reel, and line? Lunches, gasoline, all sorts of other costs you are not addressing. I admire your honesty though, you're the first one to admit that you love flossing because you think it is enjoyable. However, I do think pulling in a fish backwards/from its dorsal fin/side/neck/eyeball/anus feels significantly different on the line than a mouth hook up. Maybe that's just me.

1.  I think the harvest fishery should be identified and regulated as such, and restricted to the fraser so we don't have people employing the same methods to fish for other species at other times.  Not a difficult concept to grasp.  If it's going to happen we should properly regulate it.  Currently we do not have set of regs that will allow this to continue while at the same time protect other systems (which seems to be most peoples peeve about it).

2. I drive a honda civic..that should explain the fuel costs split between two people....  I have yet to come back without 2 fish... I don't go often and when I do I know where and when to go to maximize my chances. My reel/rod/line I already owned, I use my surfcaster that I had lined with tufline years ago.  I'm using 5 year old line.  I fish areas that bounce well with no snags so I don't lose gear.  I pack a couple of apples.  What sorts of other costs are there???  Lets hear "all sorts"....

3. I've seen plenty of fish really "fouled" but I have only fouled one or two in the few years I've been flossing fish.  You can criticize me for still fishing even though I know there's a chance of fouling them all you want but the fact is that I've fouled just as many fishing spoons in the same timeframe.  It happens... heck, I foul cutties on fast stripped fry patterns sometimes...  an outer mouth hooked sockeye fights the same as an inner mouth hooked sockeye, plain and simple.  As you don't "do it" you wouldn't know that the vast majority of the time you are not my friend hooking or eye hooking fish anyways.

You can pretend you are taking some sort of high ground here but as long as you are poking fish for your enjoyment you're going to have a tough time winning any ethics based arguments.  I'd be happy to engage you in some if that's your wish

Bottom line... you're not going to solve anything by complaining about something that isn't just going to go away.  You're better off acknowledging that its here to stay and doing something with your time and energy that will "contain" it. 

[marmot]

I don't think anyone would get much traction with DFO arguing that flossing isn't ethical; they're obviously managing it as a fishery, a fish harvest, and not as a recreational sport activity. I think the only argument that could get them to change the regs would be if they could be convinced that the incidental by-catch of endangered sockeye, chinook, coho, etc. from flossing is negatively affecting weak fish stocks during the "sport" fishery. I've heard the anecdotal reports of guys on the rivers but is anyone, including DFO, actually collecting enough hard data to document it?

That speaks to my point though.  Manage it as a harvest fishery.  Currently it's being "managed" the same as any other sport fishery..we just have an opening...That's not managing.  Managing would involve some changes to the regs that were harvest specific, ie, not fishing after you catch two fish, retention of any fouled sockeye or spring, two fish aggregate limit.  The biggest impact could be from restricting terminal tackle --"flossing rigs" to this fishery only.

As far as bycatch goes, we desperately need better angler education.  Unfortunately MOE have made it pretty clear that they are not interested so far.

[jon5hill]

Here's a regulation change that I would approve of:

"Anglers are not permitted to use bouncing-style weights with attached leaders in excess of 3 feet long for the purpose of foul hooking fish"

I would thoroughly like that one, along with the billion dollars they would make in tickets.

[coho65]

LOL,....i have foul hooked fish bar fishin,float fishing.....pretty much any style fishing,it happens if you fish lots.jon5hill,what about the fly anglers who floss,alot of salmon hooked by fly are flossed,thats a fact.are they better than the dreaded long line betty crowd?when your usin a fly rod it takes alot longer to land a fish than the dreaded flossin kill em all tecnique,its hard on the fish.you better include the fly fisherman in your proposed regulation change,or can they just use a floating line only?lol.....flossing is here to stay weather a guy likes it or not but it is only efficient in certain rivers in certain runs with the right bottom.

[marmot]

Here's a regulation change that I would approve of:

"Anglers are not permitted to use bouncing-style weights with attached leaders in excess of 3 feet long for the purpose of foul hooking fish"

I would thoroughly like that one, along with the billion dollars they would make in tickets.

Sure, but it'd never happen. Too much money is being brought in by the fishery.  Neither would the "billion" dollars in fines, even if it did happen.  We already have scores of violations happening every day and we're not seeing billions in revenue... I'd be surprised if $10,000 in fines gets generated during a whole sockeye opening...

I think it'd be a good idea to implement it on other systems though, and only allow bouncing style weights with attached leaders in excess of 3 feet during the sockeye fishery.  This isn't so "I" can do it either, I could take it or leave it as far as the fishery goes.  I'm just seeing the unavoidable truth that DFO is choosing to allow it to happen, knowing full well what it's about, and trying to suggest changes that would mitigate some of the potential damage.  It'd be nice if people could put their heads together on this one instead of bicker back and forth about ethics which by the inaction of DFO are rendered completely irrelevant (at least in practical terms).  You are not a dumb guy and you are passionate about fish and fishing.  You should channel that into something constructive.

[jon5hill]

LOL,....i have foul hooked fish bar fishin,float fishing.....pretty much any style fishing,it happens if you fish lots.jon5hill,what about the fly anglers who floss,alot of salmon hooked by fly are flossed,thats a fact.are they better than the dreaded long line betty crowd?when your usin a fly rod it takes alot longer to land a fish than the dreaded flossin kill em all tecnique,its hard on the fish.you better include the fly fisherman in your proposed regulation change,or can they just use a floating line only?lol.....flossing is here to stay weather a guy likes it or not but it is only efficient in certain rivers in certain runs with the right bottom.

You didn't respond to anything I said in particular, rather, you named me in a post that had no bearing on anything I have said.

I'll do the same in return:

This isn't rocket science - it's obvious where the differences are and you know it as well as anyone. The fact is people are out there purposely snagging fish and they are all doing it the same way. Your little subjective fly snagging claim is absolutely negligible by comparison. Quit adding grey area that doesn't exist. Bouncing betties and long leaders are used for snagging - which is not fishing - and should not be allowed. Period.

[alwaysfishn]

You didn't respond to anything I said in particular, rather, you named me in a post that had no bearing on anything I have said.

I'll do the same in return:

This isn't rocket science - it's obvious where the differences are and you know it as well as anyone. The fact is people are out there purposely snagging fish and they are all doing it the same way. Your little subjective fly snagging claim is absolutely negligible by comparison. Quit adding grey area that doesn't exist. Bouncing betties and long leaders are used for snagging - which is not fishing - and should not be allowed. Period.

But it is allowed, and because it is allowed, it is not snagging, as snagging by definition is illegal.

If you don't approve, don't participate. Pontificating on how you are better than others because you don't participate does nothing to enhance your status...

[marmot]

This isn't rocket science - it's obvious where the differences are and you know it as well as anyone. The fact is people are out there purposely snagging fish and they are all doing it the same way. Your little subjective fly snagging claim is absolutely negligible by comparison. Quit adding grey area that doesn't exist. Bouncing betties and long leaders are used for snagging - which is not fishing - and should not be allowed. Period.

I would agree on the lack of grey area but disagree completely on your assignment of black and white.  DFO has made the fishery legal for sockeye and springs.  If it were a misinterpretation of the regs, the regs could have been amended years ago to clarify it. People who choose to claim that it's a misinterpretation of the regs or an abuse of the wording don't have a leg to stand on for this reason.  It's your own overzealous desire to look down on those who participate in it and your own need to feel that your set of ethics are above that of others. 

I know that the fish do not bite.  I could care less with this particular fishery.  If it were fishing with spear or net I'd feel the same...it's a harvest.  Whatever is going to be fastest and most effective wins.  If DFO allows it, I may not want to participate in it for my own reasons but I would not be expecting other people to adhere to my own personal code of conduct.  If it is not a conservation concern and is managed properly, I have no problem with whatever method is deemed legal.  You can have as much of an issue with it as you like but as I said, it's not going to get you or anyone else anywhere and your efforts are better spent trying to improve the fishery.

[G.A.]

the whole fish count by the guy on the bars is a farce. i dont know how many would be truth full if they had over their limits and he dosent even look to see if its the truth. he dont care. just there for a pay cheque.
bottom bouncing and snagging are not the same. look the tech temrs up. snagging is hook out of mouth. flossing or bouncing is in a mouth. not to easy to get that thing diameter line between a fish mouth and get a clean hook. big difference. why dont people pick on heavy fuel consumption cars or speeders like they pick on bottom bouncers to. some seem to put a fishes life before human...sad realy.,

[G.A.]

i used to work for DFO and the whole bizz is a joke. money grab after money grab and many many dollars wasted. same as in forest fire fighting, did that to and was a joke of waste of our hard earned tax dollars. the whole thing to me was a cushy fat assed sit in a chair gov pen pushing deck driving money grab...typical government worker type job

[StillAqua]

I know that the fish do not bite.  I could care less with this particular fishery.  If it were fishing with spear or net I'd feel the same...it's a harvest.  Whatever is going to be fastest and most effective wins.  If DFO allows it, I may not want to participate in it for my own reasons but I would not be expecting other people to adhere to my own personal code of conduct.  If it is not a conservation concern and is managed properly, I have no problem with whatever method is deemed legal.  You can have as much of an issue with it as you like but as I said, it's not going to get you or anyone else anywhere and your efforts are better spent trying to improve the fishery.

There are several sockeye rivers in Alaska that they open to dip net fishing for residents personal use for a couple weeks each year that are a real gong show....but they are plain and simple a harvest, not a sport fishery, which I agree is what the Fraser sockeye harvest is being managed as. I wouldn't have any problem with it but I seriously doubt DFO can minimize the bycatch, police it effectively or keep the snaggers off other rivers.