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[Sandman]

No, I do not have any financial interest in BC fish farms but I do support them as I believe they are and will be an important part of BC’s future economy.  Wish I could say the same of wild salmonids.

I think that, regardless of how the "yellow salmon" story plays out, this comment may have cost you any credibility you may have had on this forum, Dave.  To write off wild salmon the way you do, on a forum dedicated to fishing (anyone here ever fish in a fish farm?), is perplexing.That you put the economic interests of fish farmers ahead of wild salmon and the economic activities both commercial and recreational that they support, not to mention their value to First Nations and the natural ecosystems of the BC Coast is shockingly disappointing, Dave.  Fish farms have absolutely no place in BC other than economic, and as long as economic imperatives govern environmental considerations, wild salmon will have no chance, ultimately costing the BC economy billions of dollars in economic activity and even more in priceless biodiversity.  Fish Farms may, in the end, not be responsible for the decline of wild salmon stocks, but it is obvious to anyone who has seen the correlations that they cannot be helping wild stocks, and their potential for harm is too great a risk for the small economic gain they offer. 

[StillAqua]

I think that, regardless of how the "yellow salmon" story plays out, this comment may have cost you any credibility you may have had on this forum, Dave.  To write off wild salmon the way you do, on a forum dedicated to fishing (anyone here ever fish in a fish farm?), is perplexing.

I guess Dave can speak for himself but that seems a bit of a leap in interpreting his comment. I thought he just meant that DFO is looking after the fish farms and not wild salmon.

[Sandman]

I guess Dave can speak for himself but that seems a bit of a leap in interpreting his comment. I thought he just meant that DFO is looking after the fish farms and not wild salmon.

Oh, and I thought he said that fish farms have a future in the BC economy, not wild salmon.  Not sure how to interpret it another way.

[Dave]

Sandman, I am not "giving up " on wild salmon; most people who know me understand that.  Please refer to some of my previous posts.
I am also a keen and avid angler, and most certainly know and understand the cultural needs of FN.  Perhaps more than you know
I believe with climate change, human population increases, future electrical needs, etc, etc, wild salmon have a dismal future but I do and will continue to work for them.
Are you?

And yes, I do indeed think salmon aquaculture and wild salmon can and will co-exist in BC and will play a factor in this Province's growth.

[Sandman]

Sandman, I am not "giving up " on wild salmon; most people who know me understand that.  Please refer to some of my previous posts.
I am also a keen and avid angler, and most certainly know and understand the cultural needs of FN.  Perhaps more than you know
I believe with climate change, human population increases, future electrical needs, etc, etc, wild salmon have a dismal future but I do and will continue to work for them.
Are you?

And yes, I do indeed think salmon aquaculture and wild salmon can and will co-exist in BC and will play a factor in this Province's growth.

Dave,

You will have to forgive me if I take your most recent posts as evidence you having thrown in the towel, as it certain sounds like you have.  And your comments above do not sound any less defeatist.   Aquaculture is born of a sense that wild salmon are no longer "economical."  This is why we decided to farm them in the first place is it not?  To make them more economical?  I am not saying aquaculture itself cannot be a good thing either, it does offer a potential to the take pressure off wild stocks to satisfy our gastronomic desires.  I am saying we can no longer allow economic imperatives alone guide our decision making.  The choice to farm Atlantic Salmon in open net pens on the BC coast was a BAD idea, made worse by the subsequent bad decisions to try and manage them at the risk to wild stocks (such as the use of antibiotics to combat disease in overcrowded pens).  Aquaculture on the BC coast needs to be environmentally sustainable and responsible, and open net farming of Atlantic salmon on our fragile coast is neither.  Support our wild salmon by saying no to farmed Atlantic salmon on the BC coast.  They belong in Atlantic Canada, not here.  Nova Scotians need jobs too.

[troutbreath]

Letting salmon farmers use the cheapest/more harmful way of raising fish, shows what the brightist and the best call fish and chips dease day's.

[aquapaloosa]

I thought it was fair and forthcoming of dave to list his credentials?

Perhaps it is time for Morty, Sandman and others to list their qualification of opinion as well???  Just to be fair.

[holmes]

yellow salmon found in alaska as well... ..holmes*

http://nikiraapana.blogspot.com/2008/08/copper-river-red-salmon-turns-yellow.html

[BwiBwi]

Sandman, I am not "giving up " on wild salmon; most people who know me understand that.  Please refer to some of my previous posts.
I am also a keen and avid angler, and most certainly know and understand the cultural needs of FN.  Perhaps more than you know
I believe with climate change, human population increases, future electrical needs, etc, etc, wild salmon have a dismal future but I do and will continue to work for them.
Are you?

And yes, I do indeed think salmon aquaculture and wild salmon can and will co-exist in BC and will play a factor in this Province's growth.

Letting nature taking it's course will not garner enough food for the human population.  Much like agriculture where intense farming has become an integral part of our life, all food source will eventually require farming.  Farming methods have gone through many decades of progress..  including shortening mature cycle, mass production, weed/insects control and so forth..   Today many chemical/hormones that were once considered a common practice has been banned due to health concerns environmental concerns.

Aquaculture, still in it's early development stage will evolve like agriculture.  It is here to stay and provide. 

[silver ghost]

I have no interest nor am i a stakeholder in the company, but id like to share with the board this salmon farming company from the states. their fish are raised in a closed sustem that is miles inland, and no possible way for fish to escape or transmit diseases. the fish are raised in freshwater and the water is filtered and the fish feces uses as fertilizer

http://www.sweetspringsalmon.com/

pretty good idea IMHO

[holmes]

thanks for the link fishunter..... ....holmes*

here is another one

http://www.farmedanddangerous.org/so...ment/examples/

[StillAqua]

 Aquaculture is born of a sense that wild salmon are no longer "economical."  This is why we decided to farm them in the first place is it not?  To make them more economical?  I am not saying aquaculture itself cannot be a good thing either, it does offer a potential to the take pressure off wild stocks to satisfy our gastronomic desires.  I am saying we can no longer allow economic imperatives alone guide our decision making.  The choice to farm Atlantic Salmon in open net pens on the BC coast was a BAD idea, made worse by the subsequent bad decisions to try and manage them at the risk to wild stocks (such as the use of antibiotics to combat disease in overcrowded pens).  Aquaculture on the BC coast needs to be environmentally sustainable and responsible, and open net farming of Atlantic salmon on our fragile coast is neither.  Support our wild salmon by saying no to farmed Atlantic salmon on the BC coast.  They belong in Atlantic Canada, not here.  Nova Scotians need jobs too.

I agree with everything you said Sandman except the last part about Atlantic Canada. Their wild Atlantics stocks are even more threatened by farmed Atlantics.
http://asf.ca/news.php?id=758

[Sandman]

I agree with everything you said Sandman except the last part about Atlantic Canada. Their wild Atlantics stocks are even more threatened by farmed Atlantics.
http://asf.ca/news.php?id=758

I wouldn't say they are more threatened as they are at least the same species over there.  There will always be concern over escapees from a farm and of course the over crowding issues are the same regardless of the location.  My main concern of the farming of Atlantic here comes from our experience with other invasive species.  Introducing the Atlantics into Pacific waters was a dumb idea in a long line of dumb ideas.  If a pathogen from the hatcheries that raised these fish enters the waters of BC it could decimate the wild stocks the way the Smallpox decimated the Native populations here.  If it happen to a people, is it so far to leap that it might happen to a fish? The other risks, already mentioned (escapees, pollution, antibiotic resistant bacteria, etc), add further stress to an already stressed system.  If the fisheries biologists had done the studies first, rather than using the BC coast as a giant lab experiment, we may have felt a little more comfortable with the introduction of aquaculture here.

I thought it was fair and forthcoming of dave to list his credentials?

Perhaps it is time for Morty, Sandman and others to list their qualification of opinion as well???  Just to be fair.

I am not sure a "qualification of opinion" is necessary as an opinion is judged on the merits of its supporting arguments, not on the credentials of the speaker (that would be an ad hominem attack).  I value many of the opinions stated by forum members that may not have degrees but whose experiences have granted them a perspective that is still as valuable and meaningful (like Dave's, before he threw in the towel) as a scientist (who perhaps is bucking for their next grant).  However, if you really wish to know  I am a historian, geographer, and geologist, not a biologist, and I have a Masters degree in Environmental History from Simon Fraser.  I am not a current or former employee of either the DFO nor a disgruntled former employee the salmon farming industry.  My allegiance is to the environment and my agenda is to see that the mistakes of the past are not repeated.

Letting nature taking it's course will not garner enough food for the human population.  Much like agriculture where intense farming has become an integral part of our life, all food source will eventually require farming.  Farming methods have gone through many decades of progress..  including shortening mature cycle, mass production, weed/insects control and so forth..   Today many chemical/hormones that were once considered a common practice has been banned due to health concerns environmental concerns.

Aquaculture, still in it's early development stage will evolve like agriculture.  It is here to stay and provide. 

I object as strongly to the giant industrial feedlots that produce the chicken and beef for the world's fast food chains as I do the slashing and burning of the amazon rainforest to make room for cattle ranches to supply them as well.  For the last 5 000 years humankind has been in a perpetual battle with nature, intent on more than just "survival".  We have sought to harness, control, and exploit nature to satisfy our desire for a "good" life.  In the last 100 years we have won that battle, and yet the battle rages on.  We continue to act as though we must subdue nature.  We need to recognize that the battle is won and that we do not need to continue to pommel our enemy into the dust.  Just as the two sides at the end of a war must reach across the table of peace and find a way to live together, a change in our behavior must take place if we are to coexist with the natural world.  We cannot continue to exploit the environment the way we have been doing, and we cannot continue to think and act as though we can.  A revolution is needed and it is needed soon, or the environmental damage done in the name of satisfying the desires of 14 billion people (the projected stabilized world population) will be irreparable.

[shuswapsteve]

Trust me....Dave knows his stuff in this area.  Instead some of you want to believe that he is some spokesperson for the salmon farming industry (apparently anyone who has an opinion contrary to the masses here is a paid employee of Marine Harvest Canada).  Some of you should try to open your minds a little and listen from someone who clearly has experience in this area.  However, some of you wish to take the advice from someone (Morton) who has no experience or training in fish pathology....none...zippo...nada.  Unlike Morton, Dave has years of experience and looked at more salmon carcasses than some bears.  If some of you wish to be led down Morton's merry road of confusion regarding these pinks be my guest, but I think you would get more out of listening to a guy like Dave.  I was going to post before Dave did on this thread, but this is more his specialty than mine.

Lastly, Dave certainly has not written off wild salmon or thrown in the towel.  He has likely been more involved with wild salmon than most of you keyboard crunchers and Morton kool-aid drinkers.  He is still in waders, but has a fishing rod in his hand more these days.

[shuswapsteve]

double post, Rodney