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[Robert_G]

Did I say that humans and the rest of the animal kingdom should be treated exactly the same or did I say that your statement about humans not being animals was laughably incorrect and ignorant?

Spend more time understanding the post and less time reacting to it.  Your understanding of animal intelligence falls short of what kids learn in highschool these days and your understanding of where humans sit within the animal kingdom falls short of what they are taught in grade school.  Your understanding of what differentiates humans and animals sounds more like what a preacher might say.

Actually, your first response to me was nothing more than a useless troll post. I was only answering back to that jibberish....perhaps I should have know better.
My first post in this thread was in response to the person (NOT YOU) who said that animals and humans are equal. You responded to me with your troll post even though I hadn't said anything to you....so I assumed you agreed him. Perhaps that might explain to you why you got the response that you receieved. If you can't comprehend that....then I can't help you.

As for my understanding animals...that is completely irrelevent. My understanding of human beings is what counts....that being said.....human beings have more value than animals. Animals are not equal in value to human beings. I don't care how smart you say animals are or whatever else. They are simply not designed like human beings. We are unique in ways that no animal will ever compare to. If you can't see that....then you need to stop spending all your time with your pets and maybe invest in some human relationships.....you might just see that we're different from animals.

[bigblockfox]

How can you say that? Animal testing done as humanly as possible benefits mankind. I don't agree with animal testing for things like cosmetics because cosmetics are an EXTRA, and not a NEED. However, when it comes to pesticides and medical drugs, I want to know my family and friends and myself are going to be safe in taking them. If a bunch of rats have to die for that.....then so be it. All human beings are more valuable then rats....or any other animal.

And for the record....Man has held dominion over animals since mankind was created. Who are you to say otherwise or change that?

BTW....why on earth do some hunters do that? I've seen a few hunters who 'thank' the animal for allowing them to catch and kill it.
There is only One who should be thanked for whatever bounty you receive when hunting or fishing.....and I can assure you He is NOT the animal itself.

who is this one you speak of that should be thanked? lets see how off topic we can get. lol

[marmot]

I never said that learning and instinct weren't compatible, but complex behavior in animals in no way gives proof of them having the ability to reflect on past memories/experiences and the pondering of right and wrong.

A learned response is not the same as an instinctual response.  You are incorrect and are talking as if you know a lick about animal behaviour.  Animals exhibit memory and have the ability to act based on those memories. 

Before talking about animal behaviour, go to school and learn about it.  Then come back and it will be a two sided discussion. 

[marmot]

That's because most people don't want to listen when the conversation has anything to do with Him.

To me it's offensive when people expect me to listen to them talk about faith.

[DanJohn]

To me it's offensive when people expect me to listen to them talk about faith.

As well when someone feels the need to correct your scientifically backed statement based on thier own ideology. I respect others right to their own beliefs. But when you use your own to say someone elses opinion is wrong, is pure ignorance and disrespectful.

[marmot]

If you really want to know what I think about the whole "dominion over animals" thing that Robert G mentions...

I think it's a giant pile of you know what that is responsible for a good part of the rape of the natural world by humans.  So Robert G, thank you personally for perpetuating that ideology.  A shining beacon of progressive thought.

[Sandman]

As well when someone feels the need to correct your scientifically backed statement based on thier own ideology. I respect others right to their own beliefs. But when you use your own to say someone elses opinion is wrong, is pure ignorance and disrespectful.

While using your faith in God to try to disprove scientific fact is dubious, I do not think Robert was doing that.  However, to use your own beliefs to say someone else's opinion is wrong, is not ignorant or disrespectful, it is an argument, a difference of opinion.  That is precisely how an opinion is proved right or wrong... by argument.  Since an opinion, by definition, is a statement that cannot be proven true by observation or experimentation (scientific method), the only way to prove it is to create an argument.  Now, while an opinion supported solely by the "faith" that it is true, is not as strong as an opinion supported by scientific fact, they are still both opinions.  The statement that "Man deserves to hold dominion over all animals" is an opinion that cannot be proven true (or false) by a scientific experiment.  That is to say, it may be true (or false) regardless of the intelligence of the animals, if it is indeed the Will of God who created both.  However, as an opinion, that statement may be challenged by another opinion that "all things are deserving of equal respect", which also cannot be proven true by scientific observation or experimentation.  Both sides can present arguments (or choose to rest solely on "faith"), but ultimately only the final judgment will decide if man deserved to dominate the world and all the animals in it, or if he violated a sacred trust to respect and honor his fellow creatures. Only God, or Mother Earth, will decide.

[Ed]

Actually, your first response to me was nothing more than a useless troll post. I was only answering back to that jibberish....perhaps I should have know better.
My first post in this thread was in response to the person (NOT YOU) who said that animals and humans are equal. You responded to me with your troll post even though I hadn't said anything to you....so I assumed you agreed him. Perhaps that might explain to you why you got the response that you receieved. If you can't comprehend that....then I can't help you.

As for my understanding animals...that is completely irrelevent. My understanding of human beings is what counts....that being said.....human beings have more value than animals. Animals are not equal in value to human beings. I don't care how smart you say animals are or whatever else. They are simply not designed like human beings. We are unique in ways that no animal will ever compare to. If you can't see that....then you need to stop spending all your time with your pets and maybe invest in some human relationships.....you might just see that we're different from animals.

I agree that humans are different to animals, but  I don't think its right to generalize "animals" as being something negative.

[DanJohn]

While using your faith in God to try to disprove scientific fact is dubious, I do not think Robert was doing that.  However, to use your own beliefs to say someone else's opinion is wrong, is not ignorant or disrespectful, it is an argument, a difference of opinion.  That is precisely how an opinion is proved right or wrong... by argument.  Since an opinion, by definition, is a statement that cannot be proven true by observation or experimentation (scientific method), the only way to prove it is to create an argument.  Now, while an opinion supported solely by the "faith" that it is true, is not as strong as an opinion supported by scientific fact, they are still both opinions.  The statement that "Man deserves to hold dominion over all animals" is an opinion that cannot be proven true (or false) by a scientific experiment.  That is to say, it may be true (or false) regardless of the intelligence of the animals, if it is indeed the Will of God who created both.  However, as an opinion, that statement may be challenged by another opinion that "all things are deserving of equal respect", which also cannot be proven true by scientific observation or experimentation.  Both sides can present arguments (or choose to rest solely on "faith"), but ultimately only the final judgment will decide if man deserved to dominate the world and all the animals in it, or if he violated a sacred trust to respect and honor his fellow creatures. Only God, or Mother Earth, will decide.

I agree with everything you said.  I was referring to robert saying my opinion is wrong based on his opinion. As you stated, it is a difference of opinion. There is no right our wrong there. Just different thoughts. Maybe I read what he wrote in a different tone than what he intended, and mistook his starting his opinion as fact.

But as I took it, I was wrong, because his opinion differs than mine. I accept to agree to disagree because they are different ideas. But if I read what he write correctly and in his eyes an wrong because he thinks something else, then I do find that disrespectful and ignorant.

Oh and I should add, to clarify in case I my post was being misread (more like I fail to coherently convey a message )

As well when someone feels the need to correct your scientifically backed statement based on thier own ideology.(The Humans not being Animals part) I respect others right to their own beliefs. But when you use your own to say someone elses opinion is wrong, is pure ignorance and disrespectful. (The whole "My belief system states man dominates over animals, thus what you think is wrong")

[Sandman]

Yes, the stakes are indeed raised whenever the "opinion" is a matter of "faith" as it is no longer a simple "difference of opinion", since the disagreement calls one's very belief system into question.  You need to be mindful and understanding when someone guards their faith "religiously" as it is a personal and deep rooted belief that defies logic and reason.  That is why it is call Faith.  Try not to be offended, and not to be offensive.  The greatest discussions and debates can grow out of a clash of faith, but so too can the deadliest and nastiest of conflicts.

[bj23]

Gut & Chuck???

[Sandman]

And I never said that an opinion cannot BE wrong, I said that it cannot be PROVEN wrong by scientific observation or experimentation.  The opinion that man "holds dominion over animals" may indeed BE wrong, but you cannot PROVE it is wrong by conducting an experiment (on animal intelligence for example).  However, if salmon really WERE people transformed into salmon, and as such are deserving of our respect as they offer themselves up to sustain us (see "How the Salmon Came to Squamish Waters," a Coast Salish oral tradition of the origins of the salmon runs here), then those guys that blew up that Pink salmon on YouTube will have to answer to the Great Spirit, whether they believed they held dominion over the salmon or not.

[holmes]

quote:
All human beings are more valuable then rats....or any other animal.


i totally disagree with this statement, there are some humans that are a total waste of skin and are using up valuable oxygen, and those rats or other animals that they use in testing are giving us very valuable info., how valuable is a guy like pickton?, or manson, or david koresh?.... ....holmes*

[cutthroat22]

Does manimal sound better?

[Robert_G]

i totally disagree with this statement, there are some humans that are a total waste of skin and are using up valuable oxygen, and those rats or other animals that they use in testing are giving us very valuable info., how valuable is a guy like pickton?, or manson, or david koresh?.... ....holmes*

What this says to me is that you don't have the capacity in you to forgive unconditionally....thus one of the main reasons the world is the way it is.