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[Dave]

I wonder what Dr. Simon Jones will say

[mykisscrazy]

Probably whatever he is told too say....
But hopefully I am wrong...

What I would like to see is the same sort of sampling occur up and down the Pacific Coast from California to Alaska.
Who knows, whatever they are finding has been here for a long time. The only reason they know for sure since the 80's is because of samples that had been stored away.
It may have always been here.

[absolon]

At this point, it's a bit early to come to any conclusions. From what little testimony I have seen, Miller is using an unconventional and not generally accepted technique for testing and it is those tests that have supplied all her results, including those on the samples from the '80s.

I think we need the virologists to come to a conclusion about the validity of her methods before taking any results obtained by those methods as gospel. It isn't just the DFO scientists; even Are Nylund, the Norwegian expert responsible for most preceding work on the virus, questions her methods. Her techniques may be valid, but there needs to be a consensus among experts that they are indeed so. No doubt that discussion will now happen.

[chris gadsden]

At this point, it's a bit early to come to any conclusions. From what little testimony I have seen, Miller is using an unconventional and not generally accepted technique for testing and it is those tests that have supplied all her results, including those on the samples from the '80s.

I think we need the virologists to come to a conclusion about the validity of her methods before taking any results obtained by those methods as gospel. It isn't just the DFO scientists; even Are Nylund, the Norwegian expert responsible for most preceding work on the virus, questions her methods. Her techniques may be valid, but there needs to be a consensus among experts that they are indeed so. No doubt that discussion will now happen.

I see you slowly swaying our way on this topic.

[alwaysfishn]

At this point, it's a bit early to come to any conclusions. From what little testimony I have seen, Miller is using an unconventional and not generally accepted technique for testing and it is those tests that have supplied all her results, including those on the samples from the '80s.

Care to expand on that statement?

What is unconventional about Miller's methods? Why would DFO allow her to use unconventional methods for 30 some years rather than firing her and hiring someone that would use conventional methods? Why would DFO promote her to head of molecular genetics, when she obviously was either incompetent or just wouldn't take direction when told to use conventional methods?

Absolon, I suggest your comment is just an attempt to discredit an honest scientist!

[alwaysfishn]

I see you slowly swaying our way on this topic.

Yes, he has come a long way since his first post on this forum:

There are not 100 positive cases of ISA in farmed and wild salmon in BC. There are no cases of ISA and have not ever been any cases of confirmed ISA in the province. ISA is a disease, not a virus and it has never been present. There is a possibility that a virus that is a precursor to the virus which causes ISA is present, but that can't be confirmed because the virus could not be cultured in any of the purported cases. The accusations by the anti-farm lobby are deliberate misinformation intended to wind up uninformed people and conceal the scientific reality. It is not the DFO that can't be trusted. It is the DFO that works with proven facts and science.

After attempting to discredit Miller (a long term employee and head of a DFO department) for using unconventional methods, I find the statement "It is the DFO that works with proven facts and science." to be somewhat ironic, don't you?

[Easywater]

Some interesting points from the link I posted earlier:

Importance:
Infectious salmon anemia (ISA) is one of the most important viral diseases of farmed Atlantic salmon. This highly contagious disease can be insidious, with an initially low mortality rate; however, the cumulative mortality can sometimes exceed 90% if the disease remains unchecked.

Understanding of the epidemiology of ISA is still incomplete, which complicates its control. The reservoirs for the virus are not known, but experiments have shown that several species of salmonids can carry virulent ISA viruses asymptomatically. These viruses might cause outbreaks if they are transmitted to farmed Atlantic salmon. Noncultivable, apparently nonpathogenic, isolates have also been detected in wild salmonids. Small changes in these viruses, analogous to the mutations that allow low pathogenicity avian influenza viruses to become highly pathogenic, may allow them to become more virulent.

Transmission:
ISAV probably infects fish through the gills, but ingestion has not been ruled out. This virus is shed in epidermal mucus, urine, feces and gonadal fluids. In one study, virus shedding was first detected 7 days after inoculation, and rose above the minimum infective dose on day 11, two days before the first deaths occurred. Shedding peaked approximately 15 days after inoculation, when mortalities were high. ISAV also occurs in blood and tissues; tissue wastes from infected fish are infectious. Fish that survive the illness can shed the virus for more than a month.

Sea lice (Lepeophtheirus salmonis and Caligus sp.) may be mechanical vectors. These parasites could also increase the susceptibility of fish by increasing stress.

[absolon]

I see you slowly swaying our way on this topic.

Chris, that would depend on where I started.

"alwaysfishin" has kindly quoted one of my original statements in the second post following your above comment. I thought then, and I think now, that at this point, we are certain that no cases of Infectious Salmon Anemia have ever been identified in BC. I also thought then, and still think that there is a possibility that a precursor virus is present, but that hasn't been determined because no test result has been confirmed by being duplicated, and the virus hasn't been isolated in attempts to culture it. With no known outbreaks of ISA in farmed Atlantics or any other BC species, no confirmation by lab testing of it's presence and disagreement among the experts, it is a bit preliminary to be declaring that ISA has been found in BC.

[absolon]

Care to expand on that statement?

What is unconventional about Miller's methods? Why would DFO allow her to use unconventional methods for 30 some years rather than firing her and hiring someone that would use conventional methods? Why would DFO promote her to head of molecular genetics, when she obviously was either incompetent or just wouldn't take direction when told to use conventional methods?

Absolon, I suggest your comment is just an attempt to discredit an honest scientist!

From Miller's own comments, both firsthand and secondhand:

"I clearly believe that there is a virus here that is very similar to ISA virus in Europe, but we really do need to get a fuller sequence to get more information about how similar it is," said Miller.


Her submissions came from research conducted in her Nanaimo, B.C., laboratory. She noted the testing procedures were not standard and differed from another government-funded lab on the East Coast, but suggested her tests could be more sensitive.


Nylund, who has studied the virus for years, described Miller's testing procedures as "a bit strange."

Read more: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/SciTech/20111215/salmon-virus-report-111215/#ixzz1gkjkQ33e

As I understand it from the little credible information I've seen, Miller is testing a different segment of the virus DNA than is done in the standard test protocol. I really need to see the transcript and the complete discussion in order to get a better handle on it, but the initial message is that the tests have not yet been authenticated as an accurate method of testing. That obviously needs to be done before the results are authenticated as a valid indication of the presence of the virus or the precursor virus. It really isn't anything complicated: it's just basic scientific method. Another basic principle you seem to not understand is that scientists are supposed to experiment; that's how knowledge is moved forward. Some experiments succeed and some don't. That is decided by testing the method for consistency and correctness of the result, not by some activists who find the results suit their cause. No doubt Miller got her job based on competency, but that doesn't mean that every experiment she tries proves out or that every conclusion she arrive at is true. Her peers will evaluate her results and pass judgment on her techniques; anyone else who claims to be able to do so is just flat out lying.

Tell me, do you ever contribute anything factual to these discussions or is it just your job to go nipping around peoples ankles like a fierce little Pekingese whenever anyone posts something you disagree with?

[alwaysfishn]

Some interesting points from the link I posted earlier:

Importance:
Infectious salmon anemia (ISA) is one of the most important viral diseases of farmed Atlantic salmon. This highly contagious disease can be insidious, with an initially low mortality rate; however, the cumulative mortality can sometimes exceed 90% if the disease remains unchecked.

Understanding of the epidemiology of ISA is still incomplete, which complicates its control. The reservoirs for the virus are not known, but experiments have shown that several species of salmonids can carry virulent ISA viruses asymptomatically. These viruses might cause outbreaks if they are transmitted to farmed Atlantic salmon. Noncultivable, apparently nonpathogenic, isolates have also been detected in wild salmonids. Small changes in these viruses, analogous to the mutations that allow low pathogenicity avian influenza viruses to become highly pathogenic, may allow them to become more virulent.

Transmission:
ISAV probably infects fish through the gills, but ingestion has not been ruled out. This virus is shed in epidermal mucus, urine, feces and gonadal fluids. In one study, virus shedding was first detected 7 days after inoculation, and rose above the minimum infective dose on day 11, two days before the first deaths occurred. Shedding peaked approximately 15 days after inoculation, when mortalities were high. ISAV also occurs in blood and tissues; tissue wastes from infected fish are infectious. Fish that survive the illness can shed the virus for more than a month.

Sea lice (Lepeophtheirus salmonis and Caligus sp.) may be mechanical vectors. These parasites could also increase the susceptibility of fish by increasing stress.

Thanks for posting Easywater. It was a good article and for us laymen, easier reading .

A lot of dots are starting to be connected. I imagine if an ISA infected sea lice attached itself to a fry, it wouldn't take long to kill it.

[alwaysfishn]

Tell me, do you ever contribute anything factual to these discussions or is it just your job to go nipping around peoples ankles like a fierce little Pekingese whenever anyone posts something you disagree with?

I think the value of the contribution is in the eye of the reader. You have obviously judged my comments rather harshly. Perhaps I've touched a nerve? I want to see the truth come out. The way I see it, you believe you know the truth  (or what you would like the truth to be) and try to discredit anyone that differs from your version.

It's a discussion forum. If you want to participate, expect a little ankle nipping..... 

[chris gadsden]

Mark Hume, Globe and Mail today.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/bc-politics/federal-agency-accused-of-intimidation-over-salmon-disease/article2274509/

[alwaysfishn]

Mark Hume, Globe and Mail today.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/british-columbia/bc-politics/federal-agency-accused-of-intimidation-over-salmon-disease/article2274509/

"Dr. Kibenge’s lab in 2007 confirmed the first occurrence of ISA in farmed Atlantic salmon in Chile, where the virus triggered a disease outbreak that killed millions of salmon." But according to DFO and CFIA when it comes to BC wild salmon, Dr. Kibenge's lab is incompetent and doesn't know what they are doing.... 

[Dave]

exhale alwaysfishin   Let this fester for the weekend and wait for Monday when I bet something new will arise
Pretty sure we all are reading the same book, just on different chapters.

[alwaysfishn]

exhale alwaysfishin   Let this fester for the weekend and wait for Monday when I bet something new will arise
Pretty sure we all are reading the same book, just on different chapters.

Are not suggesting that Dr Simon Jones will come on the stand, say there are absolutely no problems and that DFO is really looking out for the wild salmon..... is that the chapter you are on?

I like happy ending chapters, but there will have to be a lot of magic on Monday to be able to make all the incriminating evidence go away.

By the way I do appreciate the concern for my health and I promise to exhale.