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[absolon]

I think the value of the contribution is in the eye of the reader. You have obviously judged my comments rather harshly. Perhaps I've touched a nerve? I want to see the truth come out. The way I see it, you believe you know the truth  (or what you would like the truth to be) and try to discredit anyone that differs from your version.

It's a discussion forum. If you want to participate, expect a little ankle nipping.....  

That's a  prime example of what I'm talking about. You spend a lot of time taking potshots at the messenger and never get around to dealing with the message. I already understand that you disagree. I'd be interested in hearing the facts that support your disagreements with my perspective but I'm really not interested in your characterizations of my motivation; they don't contribute anything to moving the discussion forward.

[absolon]

"Dr. Kibenge’s lab in 2007 confirmed the first occurrence of ISA in farmed Atlantic salmon in Chile, where the virus triggered a disease outbreak that killed millions of salmon." But according to DFO and CFIA when it comes to BC wild salmon, Dr. Kibenge's lab is incompetent and doesn't know what they are doing.... 

Who said that? Got a link?

[chris gadsden]

From Alex:


http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/

[chris gadsden]

Documents released for the Cohen Commission have revealed that Infectious salmon Anemia has been found in Genetically Engineered Salmon at a site in Prince Edward Island. Bcause the site is land based and isolated from the ocean environment the question is how were these fish contaminated with ISA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVh4TRey0OE&feature=colike

[chris gadsden]

Person in clip above is Catherine Stewart of Living Oceans.


Also Alex on CBC news.
http://youtu.be/z0hIZ96_Y04

[chris gadsden]

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/arts-and-life/life/sci_tech/findings-of-virus-in-bc-salmon-brought-government-pressure-scientists-135747363.html

Gosh and a flossed fish in the photo too.

[alwaysfishn]

That's a  prime example of what I'm talking about. You spend a lot of time taking potshots at the messenger and never get around to dealing with the message. I already understand that you disagree. I'd be interested in hearing the facts that support your disagreements with my perspective but I'm really not interested in your characterizations of my motivation; they don't contribute anything to moving the discussion forward.

I understand that you would like to have an intellectual debate on the science. You can't possibly think that I'm that naive, to debate something that I don't understand to nearly the level you appear to know it. 

What you are apparently naive about (or choose to ignore) is that there is politics and money involved. It's becoming increasingly obvious from the information coming out of the hearings that politics and money have trumped the science, to the point that the science becomes irrelevant. When I see DFO scientists discrediting long term qualified scientists because their science doesn't fit the direction of the governments politics .......  well the science becomes somewhat irrelevant. Hopefully after the Cohen reports come out, they will get to the bottom of the BS and we can get back to good science and implement the policies necessary to protect the wild salmon.

So get off the whining about having your heals nipped and the complaining about how I'm not playing fair, and stick to your arguments that all the science is questionable if it doesn't fit the fish farm agenda. Because as long as you do that you are an easy target.

[alwaysfishn]

Who said that? Got a link?

The line with quotation marks was from the article Chris posted in the previous post.

[absolon]

The line with quotation marks was from the article Chris posted in the previous post.

Obviously I'm not questioning the statement of fact quoted. It is this statement of yours that I am questioning:

But according to DFO and CFIA when it comes to BC wild salmon, Dr. Kibenge's lab is incompetent and doesn't know what they are doing...

I'd like to know who at the DFO and the CFIA made those statements, and I'd like to see where you found them recorded.

[aquapaloosa]

The pacific and atlantic ocean share many like and identical species.  Albacore tuna, yellow fin, bluefin, hallibut, blue sharks, are just a small example off the top of my head.   It would only make sense to me that there may be similar species of plants, plankton and viruses as well. 
  From the get go this thread and the issue has been grossly mislabeled.  I feel it should have been labeled more like "new(to us) virus discovered similar to ISA but we no nothing really about it" because this is more what the situation is.  The activists are really blowing this up while the opportunity exists and they are backing it up with a conspiracy theory to boot.  Its funny that they use the term "deadly salmon virus" along side with "has killed massive salmon populations" and it is only Atlantic Farm salmon stocks they are talking about.  "Chile had its salmon stock decimated"?  Actually they did not.  It was the farm stock that was lost to this.  Very miss leading.

  Who is to say that this is is not a naturally occurring virus that has been in the pacific for tens of thousands of years?
  Who is to say that this was not delivered with a atlantic fry or an atlantic lobster delivery to the pacific way back in the day. 
  Who is to say that it did not come on the belly of a ship.
  Who is to say that it will be the end of our pacific hatchery and wild stocks.
  If it is so deadly why have the Atlantic farms not all dyed off, or even one farm?
  If it is so deadly why did 30 million sockeye return.
  If it is everywhere and deadly why did the stamp have such a good sockeye year this year?
  If it is so deadly and has been here for 25 years or longer why are there any salmon anywhere?
  If it is so easily found then surly alaska will have it too and their salmon ranching practices seem to be pumping out product as far as I know?
 
  There are many questions that remain unanswered about this virus that we know little about yet the activist are jumping around freaking out speeding fear based on unproven facts.  Shame on them again.  They do this over and over again. 
 

[alwaysfishn]

Obviously I'm not questioning the statement of fact quoted. It is this statement of yours that I am questioning:

But according to DFO and CFIA when it comes to BC wild salmon, Dr. Kibenge's lab is incompetent and doesn't know what they are doing...

I'd like to know who at the DFO and the CFIA made those statements, and I'd like to see where you found them recorded.

There are no quotation marks so you need to assume that they are my comments.

CFIA, DFO and the government have dismissed Dr Kibenge's analysis of ISA being present in the pacific salmon samples that he analyzed. To dismiss the scientific analysis of an obvious expert suggests that; "Dr. Kibenge's lab is incompetent and doesn't know what they are doing."  Not only did they dismiss his results but they have attempted to publicly humiliate him, and Miller, another expert in her field.

Of course the other possibility is that DFO and CFIA are discrediting the results because they know that the Kibenge and Miller analysis are correct, and they don't fit the message the government wants the public to hear. ..... but that would never happen in politics now, would it?

[absolon]

I understand that you would like to have an intellectual debate on the science. You can't possibly think that I'm that naive, to debate something that I don't understand to nearly the level you appear to know it. 

What you are apparently naive about (or choose to ignore) is that there is politics and money involved. It's becoming increasingly obvious from the information coming out of the hearings that politics and money have trumped the science, to the point that the science becomes irrelevant. When I see DFO scientists discrediting long term qualified scientists because their science doesn't fit the direction of the governments politics .......  well the science becomes somewhat irrelevant. Hopefully after the Cohen reports come out, they will get to the bottom of the BS and we can get back to good science and implement the policies necessary to protect the wild salmon.

So get off the whining about having your heals nipped and the complaining about how I'm not playing fair, and stick to your arguments that all the science is questionable if it doesn't fit the fish farm agenda. Because as long as you do that you are an easy target.

Now that is funny. You acknowledge that you don't know the subject well enough to discuss it, but at the same time, are convinced you have all the right answers and prove it by attacking the bearers of dissenting messages and making up your own facts where required.

This situation has blown up precisely because politics and money are attempting to displace and discredit the science that doesn't provide the conclusion the interest groups would like it to. The argument appears to be that because the scientific method doesn't support the conclusions we have already drawn, we should disregard the scientific approach. For all of the noise and the attempts at management of public opinion to the contrary, the science can't conclude that the disease is present and can't yet be certain about the origin and nature of the virus that has been showing up in ghost positives. The public is being sold a bill of goods that can't be substantiated in an organized campaign by a well funded lobby.

What you don't appear to understand is that the science is never irrelevant; that without it the problem will never be defined and understood. What you are being told by those reactionaries you support is that science is cut and dried, that there is never disagreement so someone must be lying. What is really happening is that the state of the knowledge is being refined and expanded and the truth is being defined by hypothesis and experiment. The problem will never be solved by activist campaigns pushing erroneous solutions based on incomplete knowledge and premature conclusions and anyone who claims differently either doesn't understand reality or is a liar.

Fairness isn't an issue with your posts and you can spend as much time being an ankle-biter as you choose. The rest of us, or at least most of the rest of us, will stick to dealing with the subject without having to reduce the level of the discussion to one you can function on.

[absolon]

There are no quotation marks so you need to assume that they are my comments.

CFIA, DFO and the government have dismissed Dr Kibenge's analysis of ISA being present in the pacific salmon samples that he analyzed. To dismiss the scientific analysis of an obvious expert suggests that; "Dr. Kibenge's lab is incompetent and doesn't know what they are doing."  Not only did they dismiss his results but they have attempted to publicly humiliate him, and Miller, another expert in her field.

Of course the other possibility is that DFO and CFIA are discrediting the results because they know that the Kibenge and Miller analysis are correct, and they don't fit the message the government wants the public to hear. ..... but that would never happen in politics now, would it?

If those are your own comments, the statement "But according to DFO and CFIA" is not factually correct. That is your opinion and should be identified as such. Any other presentation is dishonest.

[Sandy]

what this lady articulates,is exactly my sentiments.

forget all the polarised politics, forget the "does it affect my style of angling crowd": look at the big picture. Do we want to be the generation that has future generations pointing fingers at?. This goes beyond sport!

DFO and CFIA has a lot to answer for, if they consider that this should be kept secret , what else is hidden in regards to fish or food stocks.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVh4TRey0OE&feature=g-all-lik&context=G2b6772eFAAAAAAAAAAA

[StillAqua]

This whole virus issue is a fascinating scientific play; Mark Hume has probably already started writing a book about it. But I think it’s difficult for someone without a background in science to understand what’s going on with all the conflicting reports, media hype and twisted anti-farm bloggers. If they could give the scientists the resources and time they need to do the work, and keep the lawyers, lay activists, bureaucrats and politicians out of it, all would be revealed. Clearly there are some methodological problems here with tracking and identifying viruses that they need to resolve.

The cutting edge of science always has frayed ends and tattered egos, and sometimes a little blood. Contested science is never clean and there will be far more people trying to prove your novel ideas wrong than right. That’s the scientific method and bruised egos and hot debates are par for the course. It’s not the pasteurized version you see on TV. If Miller’s methods are novel and unknown to the experts in the field, it’s up to her to prove their accuracy using the proper scientific methods and peer-review and publish it. That’s perfectly normal for science and she is no doubt working on it. It has nothing to do with discrediting her personally. If Kibenge doesn’t like having his lab techniques and results scrutinized; no one would, but he knew it was coming if the Moncton and Swedish labs couldn’t confirm his data. It's not discrediting him, just his data or methods if it can be proven. This is perfectly normal science; it’s just not usually done in the glare of the public.