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Author Topic: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon  (Read 291385 times)

chris gadsden

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #421 on: December 26, 2011, 08:59:46 PM »

chris gadsden

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #422 on: December 27, 2011, 08:17:25 AM »

Some interesting comments from Damien Gillis from the Common Sense Canadian.

http://thecanadian.org//k2/item/1242-cohen-salmon-save-the-fraser-declaration-fish-farm-enbridge-gillis?mid=563

absolon

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #423 on: December 27, 2011, 11:04:22 AM »

Farmed Salmon Decimating Wild Salmon Worldwide

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/02/080212-salmon-lice.html

It kind of detracts from the shock value of that headline when i) you see the paper and the article was published in 2008, ii) you realize that it is based on a statistical evaluation of gross trends and doesn't take into account trends that existed prior to salmon farming or any other factors that would affect wild survival, iii) the study indicates specifically that "In British Columbia (Pacific Canada), only pink salmon showed significant declines correlated with salmon aquaculture." and those results for Pink Salmon are largely based on Kroksek's work.

Of course, to discover those rather relevant details, one must take the trouble to get beyond the perspective of the article's author, track down the paper and read it. It's a whole lot easier not to bother and instead, develop a good case of twisted panty syndrome.
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Dave

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #424 on: December 27, 2011, 01:28:46 PM »

Farmed Salmon Decimating Wild Salmon Worldwide

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/02/080212-salmon-lice.html
Chris, would you care to tell us who sent you that?
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chris gadsden

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #425 on: December 27, 2011, 04:01:04 PM »

Chris, would you care to tell us who sent you that?
Santa? ;D ;D ;D

Dave

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #426 on: December 27, 2011, 06:36:54 PM »

Santa? ;D ;D ;D
Chris, it speaks volumes when you or the activists you support won't identify the sender of this shown to be irrelevant 3 year old article you decided to post.
I have asked you before to defend some of your statements but you have refused. What are we readers of a post to which you have added many pages, all 7334 of us at last count, to gather from that? ???
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alwaysfishn

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #427 on: December 27, 2011, 07:52:38 PM »

Chris, it speaks volumes when you or the activists you support won't identify the sender of this shown to be irrelevant 3 year old article you decided to post.
I have asked you before to defend some of your statements but you have refused. What are we readers of a post to which you have added many pages, all 7334 of us at last count, to gather from that? ???


Relax a little Dave....  There are moderators whose responsibility it is to ensure that forum rules are followed. It appears that there are no limits as to how old an article has to be before it is posted.

I see the article being totally relevant to the discussion. The only media I have see suggesting that there are no problems is the PR machines at DFO, CFIA and the fish farms. We have all learned how non-trustworthy those sources are! I thought the article was fair in that it presented the fish farm stance on the issue.

As a reader you need to decide who you are going to believe.

I'm curious as to your thoughts on the other article that was posted; http://thecanadian.org//k2/item/1242-cohen-salmon-save-the-fraser-declaration-fish-farm-enbridge-gillis?mid=563
"It is now clear from the Cohen Commission that we have more viruses affecting our wild fish than we'd even imagined. It is obvious that the DFO and CFIA see themselves far more as protectors and promoters of the salmon farming industry than as guardians of our wild fish and the public interest. It is also obvious that neither department, nor the salmon farming industry, views First Nations with anything less than complete and utter disrespect. And it is plain to see that our wild fish are dying more of greed and politics than they are of any natural cause."

I thought it summed it up rather succinctly!
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alwaysfishn

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #428 on: December 27, 2011, 08:09:46 PM »

Maybe the fish farms could use this technology.....  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCz1KNBI60I&feature=player_embedded





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Dave

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #429 on: December 27, 2011, 09:40:57 PM »

Ah, the reinforcement has arrived :D and yes, I have most certainly decided who to believe.
DFO has always treated FN poorly - nothing new there.
 
Seriously; do you want to bring potential pipelines, treaties, buyouts and the limited FN capacity, at least at the band member level, to understand it all, into this discussion??
If so, I'm out.
Last I read this post was about a virus found in Pacific salmon that seems to have been here a long time, is harmless and though lethal to Salmo species, again is not causing mortalities in farmed fish.


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alwaysfishn

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #430 on: December 27, 2011, 10:39:19 PM »


Last I read this post was about a virus found in Pacific salmon that seems to have been here a long time, is harmless and though lethal to Salmo species, again is not causing mortalities in farmed fish.


Notice how you always revert back to that argument?  ISAV doesn't exist because DFO and CFIA have decided it doesn't exist. If it existed it would harm the salmon farms reputations and likely result in the product being banned from being exported from Canada. They refuse to accept test results from anyone but their own labs. They also want to prevent anyone from running any future tests. Pretty controlled environment.......   Makes it easier to control the media reports.  ::)

Salmon pen farms are dangerous and need to be at least removed from the migratory wild salmon paths. At the very best they need to be put on dry land.
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #431 on: December 27, 2011, 11:57:04 PM »

Relax a little Dave....  There are moderators whose responsibility it is to ensure that forum rules are followed. It appears that there are no limits as to how old an article has to be before it is posted.

I see the article being totally relevant to the discussion. The only media I have see suggesting that there are no problems is the PR machines at DFO, CFIA and the fish farms. We have all learned how non-trustworthy those sources are! I thought the article was fair in that it presented the fish farm stance on the issue.

As a reader you need to decide who you are going to believe.

I'm curious as to your thoughts on the other article that was posted; http://thecanadian.org//k2/item/1242-cohen-salmon-save-the-fraser-declaration-fish-farm-enbridge-gillis?mid=563
"It is now clear from the Cohen Commission that we have more viruses affecting our wild fish than we'd even imagined. It is obvious that the DFO and CFIA see themselves far more as protectors and promoters of the salmon farming industry than as guardians of our wild fish and the public interest. It is also obvious that neither department, nor the salmon farming industry, views First Nations with anything less than complete and utter disrespect. And it is plain to see that our wild fish are dying more of greed and politics than they are of any natural cause."

I thought it summed it up rather succinctly!
We have more viruses affecting our wild fish?  Apparently, neither you nor Damien cared to read the testimony from December 15th.  Even Miller admitted that we do not even know that this ISAV is causing disease.

"I wouldn't disagree with that. I mean, I think that I clearly believe that there is a virus here that is very similar to ISA virus in Europe, but we really do need to get a fuller sequence to get more information about how similar it is, given the level of discrepancy between the various different primers that we're using.  So yes, I do think that there is sequence validation that there is an ISA-like virus here.  How it gets classified I think will be determined both based on a fuller sequence and also obviously we have not established that it causes disease.” – Dr. Kristi Miller (Cohen Commission Public Hearings, December 15, 2011).

Even Dr. Nylund, a leading expert in ISA, is not firmly convinced of an ISA virus in Pacific Salmon (Cohen Commission Public Hearings, December 15, 2011, page 57).  It does not necessarily mean that his opinion is the only one that should be trusted, but it speaks to the fact that there is much more work to do.

We do not know anything about the pathology of these discoveries or the structure of this virus.  It has not even been isolated and cultured (and even that may be a challenge).  During the Cohen Inquiry there was this document produced:
http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/pdf/TR/Project1-Report.pdf#zoom=100

As the report explains, our knowledge of impacts of pathogens on Pacific Salmon, especially Sockeye is very limited.  Even the people providing testimony during the ISA hearings eluded to that – again.  Most of our knowledge of the pathology of these pathogens comes from work with hatchery and farm fish.  However, according to the Insane Canadian, we know the extent and the impact that this “virus” is haviing on wild fish and this article summed it up succinctly?  Do you really believe that nonsense?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 11:59:17 PM by shuswapsteve »
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absolon

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #432 on: December 28, 2011, 08:11:50 AM »

Chris, it speaks volumes when you or the activists you support won't identify the sender of this shown to be irrelevant 3 year old article you decided to post.
I have asked you before to defend some of your statements but you have refused. What are we readers of a post to which you have added many pages, all 7334 of us at last count, to gather from that? ???


I wouldn't characterize this paper as entirely irrelevant. While attempting to find gross correlations is hardly "science" since a positive correlation doesn't establish causation, finding a lack of correlation is a more significant and meaningful result. The authors of the paper indicate that they were unable to find any correlation between the presence of salmon farms and numbers of wild chinook, coho, chum and most significantly, sockeye salmon. That certainly flies in the face of the current arguments presented by the reactionaries.

It is rather humorous and certainly indicative of the depth of their research and understanding of the subject that Chris presents it as further damning evidence against farms and that the sidekick argues in support of the relevance of the results. Neither bothered to go to the source document to confirm the interpretation in the article; both instead react to a salacious headline as if that were enough evidence in itself. I'd consider this a graphic representation of the integrity of the arguments presented by the reactionaries.
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chris gadsden

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #433 on: December 28, 2011, 09:14:23 AM »


Fraser sockeye being hung out to dry by politicians
  By CRAIG ORR AND STAN PROBOSZCZ, Vancouver Sun December 27, 2011  Comment 0 •Story•Photos ( 1 )
  Salmon must swim a gauntlet of indifference and lax protection measures.With all respect to a certain cinematic frog, it’s tough being a Fraser River sockeye, judging by masses of evidence and testimony tendered over the past two years at the Cohen Commission Inquiry into the Decline of Fraser River Sockeye. There’s little doubt: Sockeye face a tough existence, and unless things change, their future — and ours — will be far less rich. Sockeye are plagued by a lack of food, lax pollution standards, ineffective habitat protection efforts, archaic water laws, harmful hydro impacts, unjustified riverbed mining, a “modernized” Fisheries Act, illegal fishing, subpar catch monitoring, and debilitating climate change. Unlucky Oncorhynchus nerka must also swim a gauntlet of non-selective nets, predators, toxic algae blooms, and pathogen-bearing fish farms — all for an increasingly slim chance to spawn and die.

If these stresses weren’t troubling enough, the federal review of Fraser sockeye woes recently reopened to testimony about positive tests for the infectious salmon anemia virus (ISAv) in wild and farmed salmon. Indeed, despite vigorous government assurances to the contrary, compelling evidence suggests this virus has been here for some time. Governments’ reaction to the news — and to leaks that they had known of a possible virus for nearly a decade — prompts one to fear that wild salmon ranked disturbingly low on their list of priorities.

Reaction to reports of a virus associated with salmon farms predictably meant strident denial among Canada’s regulators, followed by something more insidious. Governments seemed less inclined to act on disease and public concerns, and more intent on firing back at the scientists who reported ISAv positives. Judge Bruce Cohen was told scientists felt “intimidated,” “attacked,” and “alienated.” Samples were seized, methods publicly questioned, labs audited. Fisheries ministers unleashed media releases chastising highly accredited academics for “reckless behaviour” and “unsound science.” Directives streamed forth from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency considering banning labs from further testing of samples collected by mere private citizens. That’s government’s job, claimed CFIA, though no government testing will happen until a disease surveillance plan is initiated, hopefully sometime in 2012. And heaven (and government) forbid anyone reporting “presumptive positives;” we must consider the international trade implications — and less so the risk to salmon.

At the core of the Cohen inquiry is the integrity of government in protecting both wild salmon and the public interest. Enough evidence was tabled to portray a Department of Fisheries and Oceans caught unfairly between conflicting mandates of simultaneously promoting industrial interests, and protecting wild salmon. Indeed, sockeye-coloured flags were raised when Cohen learned government offers up big bucks to aquaculture advocacy groups, while simultaneously Scrooging fisheries management, enforcement, and good science (like the DFO’s own fisheries scientist Kristi Miller’s). And epitaphs seem more appropriate for Canada’s progressive Wild Salmon Policy, left to fend for itself with political indifference and a lump of coal.

For keen observers of DFO and government in general, none of this surprises. The myriad details revealed in the inquiry are new though, and they paint what may be the master rendering of the current dysfunctional landscape. Like elsewhere, our governments are seemingly “captured” by industrial interests. According to British Columbia’s own Buzz Holling, the guru of adaptive management, both sockeye and those responsible for sockeye have consequently lost resilience and become “accidents waiting to happen.” In human systems, the debilitating situation is manifested by narrow interests, attempts to tightly control messaging and messengers, and a near singular drive for cost and organizational efficiency. Though the actors may change, Holling’s work suggests sockeye fit a remarkably robust pattern that he ominously calls “resource management pathology.”

Fraser River sockeye are, simply put, our own home-brewed case of resource management pathology. For those who value wild salmon and the democratic process, the current regime is in need of a major overhaul. The crisis with sockeye, and in public confidence in government, has opened up a rare opportunity for reform. The inquiry itself, especially the report due in June, can help lay a much-needed blueprint for positive change.

But it will mean government embracing, not ignoring, the outcome. More transparency. Resolving conflicting mandates. Depoliticizing science. Less kowtowing to industrial interests. More fisheries management and independent science capacity. Favouring long-term planning over narrow short-term interests. Promoting land-based farming. Less robbing of the future. Honouring the wild salmon policy.

Such a reform would stand apart as a lasting legacy, and serve as a welcome relief for Canadians forced for too long to bear witness to the constant fumbling of the political football that sockeye have come to represent.

Craig Orr is executive director and Stan Proboszcz fisheries biologist with the Watershed Watch Salmon Society, one of the member groups of the Conservation Coalition represented at the Cohn inquiry by Ecojustice.


Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/Fraser+sockeye+being+hung+politicians/5916281/story.html#ixzz1hqmx30vs

alwaysfishn

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Re: Lethal virus from European salmon found in wild BC salmon
« Reply #434 on: December 28, 2011, 09:50:21 AM »


It is rather humorous and certainly indicative of the depth of their research and understanding of the subject that Chris presents it as further damning evidence against farms and that the sidekick argues in support of the relevance of the results.

Speaking of humor.....  I find it humorous that you and your "sidekicks" (shuswap, dave and stillaqua) all use "scientific" evidence to support your position. Your evidence has been provided to you by sources that have zero credibility, as proven through the questioning at the Cohen commission. They have held back information, misrepresented information, discredited world renown scientists, failed to do testing of their own, all to protect the salmon farming industry. At least the sources I use have no monetary incentive that taints their presentation of the facts.

Your evidence sources reek of self interest and political meddling.
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