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[alwaysfishn]

Once again you are confusing your own interpretations as reality, but I have come to expect this from you.  In the website you provide as proof of your argument you concluded that “not all farms comply with submitting their data”.  This seems to imply that some farms wilfully will not participate which is not necessarily true nor is it outlined in the website you attached (but you probably knew that already…right?).  Why don’t you stick to what was actually said instead of exaggerating?  The next beauty comment is “…and the ones that do, likely pick and choose which data they want to send in”.  Really?  How do you know?  Again, you are assuming that fish farmers are being manipulative and dishonest in this regard.

When the Province was in charge they chose a sampling regime which focused most of the effort where there were active farms (called weighting).  This type of sampling is not that uncommon because it focuses your resources (which can be limiting) where most of the fish are – not where they are not.  Sampling does not necessarily mean that you get to every place all the time with maximum effort.  That’s why they call it “sampling”.  Secondly, you also have to know the difference between active and non active farms.  Not all farms are active at the same time, so they are not all going to be visited for audits.  Thirdly,  sometimes farm audits are cancelled due to adverse weather, or overriding health issues such as plankton blooms, low marine oxygen or other unforeseen circumstances.  When this happens the Province (when they were in charge) would try to reschedule the audit in the same quarter.  If you cannot do the audit for these reasons that are beyond your control this could cause variation in the calculations and results provided.  Again, you quotation from your source does not explain any other reasons for this variation.

The only thing I can see somewhat eye-to-eye with you is that budget cuts to the federal public service could affect the enforcing of the new regulations.  That is not the problem with the regulations, staff or DFO – it is with the people holding the purse strings in Ottawa.

I appreciate you taking the time to put all that in writing. Although I notice that all pro farm supporters seem to need to get personal when they are somewhat short on facts.

In the end I don't feel you said anything different than the website already said (in fewer words). The system set up to report diseases and use of antibiotics is unreliable and cannot be trusted. With expansion of the farms and cutbacks at DFO it will only get worse.

[absolon]

I think the chart above could be viewed a little differently to better establish a relationship between the two quantities.  The Fraser river sockeye return line (red) should be moved back 3 or 4 years to better represent the time those two groups were in the ocean together at the same age perhaps competing or interacting on the same level.  Seems to me that Alaskan fry released in 1993 would have nothing to do directly with sockeye returns to the fraser the same year.  Those 1993 returned socks were out in the ocean with the 1989 Alaska fry.

The relationship between the numbers is difficult to capture graphically and even more so statistically. Statistical correlation is relatively easy to define in terms of a positive or negative correlation coefficient for linear relationships of the nature Sandman is describing, but if the relationship is nonlinear such as in the case where reaching a trigger point is a requirement for causing change, statistics is out of it's depth. In such cases, the advice given is that the statistician or researcher must instead refer to the histogram that documents any potential correlation for validation.

[absolon]

In the end I don't feel you said anything different than the website already said (in fewer words). The system set up to report diseases and use of antibiotics is unreliable and cannot be trusted. With expansion of the farms and cutbacks at DFO it will only get worse.

And there's the rub. You choose to interpret what the website says in a particular manner just as you interpret all other related information in that same particular manner and never actually get around to supporting your interpretations with anything other than either further unsupported interpretations or supporting information you manufacture to suit. Nobody questions your right to do so, but neither do they accept the delusion you have created from multiple illusions as anything even close to reality.

The problem arises from ignoring the rules of logic. In order for a conclusion to be established as true, there are two conditions that must be met. First, the conclusion must follow naturally from the premises. Second, the premises must be factually and objectively established to be true. A conclusion based on faulty premises is a faulty conclusion; no amount of subjective interpretation or rhetoric in support of that interpretation can turn a faulty conclusion in to a true conclusion.

I'm sure this matters not a bit to you, but it is the reason that so few take your input to the discussion seriously.

[alwaysfishn]

And there's the rub. You choose to interpret what the website says in a particular manner just as you interpret all other related information in that same particular manner and never actually get around to supporting your interpretations with anything other than either further unsupported interpretations or supporting information you manufacture to suit. Nobody questions your right to do so, but neither do they accept the delusion you have created from multiple illusions as anything even close to reality.

The problem arises from ignoring the rules of logic. In order for a conclusion to be established as true, there are two conditions that must be met. First, the conclusion must follow naturally from the premises. Second, the premises must be factually and objectively established to be true. A conclusion based on faulty premises is a faulty conclusion; no amount of subjective interpretation or rhetoric in support of that interpretation can turn a faulty conclusion in to a true conclusion.

I'm sure this matters not a bit to you, but it is the reason that so few take your input to the discussion seriously.

You kind of lost me by the time I read your second paragraph..... so I can't really comment on your logic. 

As far as your comments on being taken seriously, can you share some valid analysis that confirm your observation, or are you shooting from the hip again?

[absolon]

With the grasp of logic you've displayed so far, I'm not surprised that you're lost. I am somewhat surprised though that you have no comment anyway.

[alwaysfishn]

With the grasp of logic you've displayed so far, I'm not surprised that you're lost. I am somewhat surprised though that you have no comment anyway.

 

[aquapaloosa]

Now would be perfect timing for a big press release Chris

[Dave]

The Morton camp does seem rather quiet; must be the season

[chris gadsden]

The Morton camp does seem rather quiet; must be the season

Yes steelhead fishing, where you should be too. Lots out there today.

[alwaysfishn]

Just so that we keep the topic.....   on topic.

http://www.catchsalmonbc.com/?p=497#more-497

The worst possible thing that could happen to Pacific salmon has likely happened: Norwegian, Atlantic Ocean ISA virus that has wiped out every fish farm country in the world has been brought to the Pacific Ocean where there was no ISA – until it was brought to Chile and now mostly likely BC.

There is only one solution: get fish farms out of the water immediately and onto land where they can infect nothing other than themselves. The best data are the Province’s. After seeking to keep them secret Christy Clark’s government relented. See: www.catchsalmonbc.com.

You will be staggered how many hundreds of times HEM (interstitial haemorrhage) and SSC (sinusoidal congestion) were found in fish farm Atlantic salmon. These are the classic symptoms of ISA that wiped out 500 farms in Chile, resulting in a $2billion loss. ISA in Norway is so entrenched it has never been completely wiped out. Scotland looks on the edge of another disease meltdown. And over the last 6 months Chilean farms sequenced for ISA have grown to 23, suggesting another cyclic infectious disaster soon.

Little wonder in Norway, Kurt Oddekalv sent out a news release and filled a farm with rotetone a fish poison, later suggesting it was milk. Farm nets have been cut. In Chile 13,000 have been thrown out of jobs and are destitute. They have become ‘fish pirates’ stealing $70 million in farm fish. We can’t condone civil disobedience, but it is clear anger runs high.

The most disappointing thing at the Cohen Commission this week were the scientists one after the other denying and distancing themselves from their own published research papers, making them unreliable. At least one has more than 100 articles. And the province’s fish-table pathologist said: ISA, what ISA? Egregious.

How much will it cost Kristi Miller to check farm fish SLV and ISA? A measly $18,700 – but DFO has turned her down. The BC public is so angered by this travesty to our iconic fish a fund has sprung up spontaneously and $5,000 has been raised in only a few days. Please give.

Why won’t DFO do it? Many reasons but their 2006 communications strategy, a Cohen exhibit, said those opposed are ‘confused’. They also signed agreements with Norway and Chile to trade scientific research. And they have a new program, CIMTAN, to train several hundred fish scientists. DFO will study the problem until all Pacific salmon are extinct. Then our good neighbours, Alaska and Washington, will have their fish die. There will be hell to pay if DFO has let ISA into the Pacific.

I asked Cohen to have all participants state their conflicts of interest and research money received or to come from fish farms. Spinwatch.org has a grim, alarming document of how Norwegian derivatives spun a story in Scotland that is a Hollywood thriller about a January 9, 2004 Science article saying farmed fish have high concentrations of PCBs, cancer-causing dioxans, etc. You won’t believe the article at first, but then the authority of its research is so incredible, you won’t believe anything a Norwegian derivative says again.

We are not going to get anymore ‘science’. Each infected farm releases 1,440 billion viruses every day. And the 2% of fish disease deaths works out to 1.5 million dead Atlantics every year. Our iconic salmon and five other anadromous salmonids need help now. Fish farms must be on land.

560 Words

dcreid@catchsalmonbc.com

1. The weblink to the provincial fish farm data: http://www.superheroes4salmon.org/blog/dropping-disease-bomb

2. The Spinwatch.org website on the January 9, 2004 Science article on cancer chemicals in farmed fish in Scotland:

http://www.spinwatch.org/-articles-by-category-mainmenu-8/45-food-industry/4925-spinning-farmed-salmon-part-1-of-3.

3. The Cohen commission : http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/. The Cohen Commission provincial fish farm data are: 1549 – 217 (BCP002864) 1549 – 206 (BCP002850)

4. The Kristy Miller ISA Fund for fish farm research: http://www.salmonaresacred.org/.

6. My submission to the Cohen Commission on participants reporting conflicts of interest with fish farms: http://www.cohencommission.ca/en/submissions/ViewASubmission.php?sub=691

 

[Dave]

af, thanks for finding that dated article that will keep this post on topic while Chris is busy fishing.
Good stuff

[alwaysfishn]

af, thanks for finding that dated article that will keep this post on topic while Chris is busy fishing.
Good stuff

I'm not feeling the thankfulness Dave....   you're not by any chance being sarcastic are you?  

I didn't hear you protesting when Absolon posted an old chart and then attempted to argue correlation......  

[alwaysfishn]

The more I read about ISA, the more I realize how concerned we should be about our wild salmon. The stuff mutates at an alarming rate. Waiting till scientists decide it's here is poor judgement.

"The unnatural concentration of farm salmon causes viral reproduction at a much higher rate than in the relatively empty ocean, and thus a much higher chance of mutation. In Chile, where Norwegian ISA wiped out the industry – a $2billion loss – there are now 20 strains where there was only one Norwegian-imported strain. And to think 100% of diseases can be eliminated by moving farms to land.

Here's a link for the "scientifically" minded.  http://jvi.asm.org/content/84/22/11916.full.pdf

[chris gadsden]

Now would be perfect timing for a big press release Chris

Time for truth.

http://alexandramorton.typepad.com/alexandra_morton/2012/01/i-just-finished-reading-the-approximately-450-pages-of-transcripts-of-the-last-three-days-of-the-cohen-inquiry-i-highly-rec.html

[Dave]

Time for truth.

Well, time for an anticipated read at least