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Author Topic: Salmon farming depleting the ocean's fish stocks  (Read 33328 times)

alwaysfishn

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Re: Salmon farming depleting the ocean's fish stocks
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2012, 09:15:08 AM »

Once again, the statistical devil is in the details. Aquaculture consists of very much more than salmon farming. Of that "aquaculture's share of global fishmeal anod fish oil consumption" salmon farming accounts for only 15 to 17% of meal and 43% of oil. (see charts on pages 8 and 9 of this link, the third time I've posted it: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:6kd_eFBlBU4J:www.aquafeed.com/documents/1230754702_1.pdf+fish+meal+production&hl=en&gl=ca&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESi6gOpnt9Ow_8sFD9-2BvtGpojoo6FcGUkQsI2Qo3ewNr_d1lKysLTqZDtkZZ2dFMnQc_MBHNd952KfkvJcdta088_vNI4CM0d3N0YmLhi9wg8SaIVlbhKSgTGHA_KXTl7oc8Dg&sig=AHIEtbTRpHO9N2WqNvLImx0N0eiweDt6iQ )

The market will absorb any amount of production. Curtailing demand by one sector simply leaves more available to be absorbed in other sectors. The only viable way to limit use is to limit supply by regulating the fishery.

Your argument against consuming globally damaging products applies equally to the consumption of the products of commercial fishing and the consumption of ranched salmon.



As usual you're missing the whole point with your flawed logic.

As demand rises, prices rise, creating incentive to harvest more of these feed fish in an unregulated jurisdiction. There is absolutely no chance that commercial operations will curtail their fishing for these feed fish. Even if regulations were put in place there would be no way of monitoring and enforcing them.

It's obvious that the salmon feedlots have no intention of cutting back on production. This pressure on the fish stocks will lead to a collapse of the stocks. Saying it's not the feedlots responsibility is consistent with what we have come to expect from the feedlots. It's also consistent with their disdain for the wild salmon, the ocean environment and the folks that are trying to preserve it.

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alwaysfishn

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Re: Salmon farming depleting the ocean's fish stocks
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2012, 09:19:53 AM »

It's too bad certain groups don't jump aboard the Issues associated with Salmon Sea Ranching.
You will see in a few more years that this will become more of an issue on our wild stocks than sea pen aquaculture.


It's obviously just an opinion (no problem with that), as you haven't backed it up with any facts.  ???
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aquapaloosa

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Re: Salmon farming depleting the ocean's fish stocks
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2012, 09:57:07 AM »

The world food demand is predicted to rise 50% by the year 2030.  How is closing salmon farms around the world going to stop all the other users of fish meal from just taking up the slack.  I agree with absolon that limits have to be set on those commercial fisheries. 

  As mykiss posted,  a true concern about this over consumption effecting our wild salmon should be and is(to some of us) the alaskan salmon ranching practice.  Ranched and wild salmon convert feed poorly and I suspect that when there is strong competition amongst all those salmon that the conversion gets even worse.

You just have to move the tunnel you are looking through a little bit to get a better look at the whole picture AF. 
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absolon

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Re: Salmon farming depleting the ocean's fish stocks
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2012, 10:29:32 AM »

As usual you're missing the whole point with your flawed logic.

As demand rises, prices rise, creating incentive to harvest more of these feed fish in an unregulated jurisdiction. There is absolutely no chance that commercial operations will curtail their fishing for these feed fish. Even if regulations were put in place there would be no way of monitoring and enforcing them.

It's obvious that the salmon feedlots have no intention of cutting back on production. This pressure on the fish stocks will lead to a collapse of the stocks. Saying it's not the feedlots responsibility is consistent with what we have come to expect from the feedlots. It's also consistent with their disdain for the wild salmon, the ocean environment and the folks that are trying to preserve it.



As usual, your ignorance of the subject leads you to faulty understanding and consequent erroneous conclusions that you feel the need to present in your usual fashion by suggesting that it is someone else using flawed logic.

Fish meal is a cocktail of various proteins, minerals and trace elements in a fairly specific proportion. These constituent elements are required in various amounts and proportions in the diet of all animals, birds and fish. These are also available in various assortments at various proportions in a variety of other compounds and substances, both synthetic and natural, at various price points. Each of these sources can also contain compounds that have negative  effects on the animals they are fed to.

Formulating a feed involves analyzing the dietary requirements of the animal to be fed and then selecting among a variety of sources for the constituent elements required based on cost, availability, assortment and proportion of elements supplied and absence of non-beneficial elements. There are multiple ways a diet can be formulated; cost is the final determinant criteria. If any particular source compound becomes more expensive, the diet is reformulated using other source compounds that also contain those elements which have become relatively less expensive as a consequence of the increase in cost of the one currently used.

Fish meal is almost ideal for the formulation of the diets for aquatic animals because it generally contains the required constituent elements in appropriate proportion for those animals without containing non-beneficial elements. Pigs and chickens have requirements for many of the elements but in different proportions so fish meal is considerably less ideal for their requirements. Consequently, it has higher value to formulators of fish feed than it would to formulators of pig or chicken feed and the price fish feed manufacturers are willing to pay is higher than that the formulators of pig and chicken feed are willing to pay. That is why the supply used in fish feed has increased and that used for pig and chicken feed has decreased. Those feed manufacturers have switched to other, lower cost sources for the constituent elements they require.

If the demand for fish meal for salmon diets decreases, the price of fish meal will also decrease and this causes a change in the economics of formulating other feeds and those other feeds will start to use more fish meal. Non-salmon aquatic demand and non-aquatic demand will absorb any newly available, lower cost supply resulting from a decease in use in salmon diets until such point as their increased demand causes sufficiently increased price that other alternatives become more economic. At that point, demand will level off again. In the interim, harvests of fish for fish meal will increase to stabilize fishing income and it is unlikely it will decrease again once the point of demand stability is reached.

In simplest terms, in spite of your flawed understanding, eliminating salmon farming demand for fish meal will decrease the price of meal resulting in increased demand by other feed sectors and that will stimulate an increase in supply. The only way to regulate supply of fish meal is to regulate the fishing for the fish that fish meal is made from just as fishing for salmon, halibut and a multitude of other species has been regulated.


« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 10:31:18 AM by absolon »
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shuswapsteve

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Re: Salmon farming depleting the ocean's fish stocks
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2012, 10:54:35 AM »

It's obviously just an opinion (no problem with that), as you haven't backed it up with any facts.  ???

It is also an opinion held by those in your own camp of fish farm critics:
http://www.vancouversun.com/story_print.html?id=5979966&sponsor=

Randall Peterman published a study on this a little while ago, but I can't seem to locate it right now.  The study is talked about in a couple of the links below.  I am not surprised that fanatical fish farm critics would want to dismiss this because this threatens to derail their agenda.  The "cause" is actually overshadowing the fish now.  However, if some fish farm critics really cared about wild salmon they should also think objectively and consider the possible implications of this instead of walking around with tunnel vision.  As you can see, even Watershed Watch Salmon Society is looking at this issue.

http://fnfisheriescouncil.ca/index.php/fish-in-the-news-/1026-north-pacific-overcrowded-as-salmon-population-soars-oct-310
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/westcoastnews/story.html?id=188950e2-6b80-4533-9aac-58f4ad9e780c
http://e360.yale.edu/feature/hatch-22_the_problem_with_the_pacific_salmon_resurgence/2335/
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aquapaloosa

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Re: Salmon farming depleting the ocean's fish stocks
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2012, 11:22:01 AM »

It's odd that publications like "the common sense Canadian" does not pick up on this stuff.  Hmmmm?
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Bassonator

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Re: Salmon farming depleting the ocean's fish stocks
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2012, 11:46:44 AM »

It's odd that publications like "the common sense Canadian" does not pick up on this stuff.  Hmmmm?

Thats because common sense would faulter with their agenda and money flow.
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absolon

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Re: Salmon farming depleting the ocean's fish stocks
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2012, 12:00:41 PM »

It's odd that publications like "the common sense Canadian" does not pick up on this stuff.  Hmmmm?

Just because they call it common sense doesn't mean it is.
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alwaysfishn

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Re: Salmon farming depleting the ocean's fish stocks
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2012, 12:12:38 PM »

It is also an opinion held by those in your own camp of fish farm critics:
http://www.vancouversun.com/story_print.html?id=5979966&sponsor=

Randall Peterman published a study on this a little while ago, but I can't seem to locate it right now.  The study is talked about in a couple of the links below.  I am not surprised that fanatical fish farm critics would want to dismiss this because this threatens to derail their agenda.  The "cause" is actually overshadowing the fish now.  However, if some fish farm critics really cared about wild salmon they should also think objectively and consider the possible implications of this instead of walking around with tunnel vision.  As you can see, even Watershed Watch Salmon Society is looking at this issue.

http://fnfisheriescouncil.ca/index.php/fish-in-the-news-/1026-north-pacific-overcrowded-as-salmon-population-soars-oct-310
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/westcoastnews/story.html?id=188950e2-6b80-4533-9aac-58f4ad9e780c
http://e360.yale.edu/feature/hatch-22_the_problem_with_the_pacific_salmon_resurgence/2335/


I'm not questioning that salmon ranching has it's negatives, what I am questioning is the comments that salmon ranching is causing anywhere near the damage to BC's wild salmon than the feedlots are.
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absolon

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Re: Salmon farming depleting the ocean's fish stocks
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2012, 12:23:02 PM »

You haven't established that salmon farming is causing any damage to BC wild salmon and you're ignoring the effect that up to 5 billion introduced hatchery fish will have on the food supply in the open ocean where BC wild salmon spend the majority of their lives.
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alwaysfishn

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Re: Salmon farming depleting the ocean's fish stocks
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2012, 12:29:38 PM »

As usual, your ignorance of the subject leads you to faulty understanding and consequent erroneous conclusions that you feel the need to present in your usual fashion by suggesting that it is someone else using flawed logic.

Fish meal is a cocktail of various proteins, minerals and trace elements in a fairly specific proportion. These constituent elements are required in various amounts and proportions in the diet of all animals, birds and fish. These are also available in various assortments at various proportions in a variety of other compounds and substances, both synthetic and natural, at various price points. Each of these sources can also contain compounds that have negative  effects on the animals they are fed to.

Formulating a feed involves analyzing the dietary requirements of the animal to be fed and then selecting among a variety of sources for the constituent elements required based on cost, availability, assortment and proportion of elements supplied and absence of non-beneficial elements. There are multiple ways a diet can be formulated; cost is the final determinant criteria. If any particular source compound becomes more expensive, the diet is reformulated using other source compounds that also contain those elements which have become relatively less expensive as a consequence of the increase in cost of the one currently used.

Fish meal is almost ideal for the formulation of the diets for aquatic animals because it generally contains the required constituent elements in appropriate proportion for those animals without containing non-beneficial elements. Pigs and chickens have requirements for many of the elements but in different proportions so fish meal is considerably less ideal for their requirements. Consequently, it has higher value to formulators of fish feed than it would to formulators of pig or chicken feed and the price fish feed manufacturers are willing to pay is higher than that the formulators of pig and chicken feed are willing to pay. That is why the supply used in fish feed has increased and that used for pig and chicken feed has decreased. Those feed manufacturers have switched to other, lower cost sources for the constituent elements they require.

If the demand for fish meal for salmon diets decreases, the price of fish meal will also decrease and this causes a change in the economics of formulating other feeds and those other feeds will start to use more fish meal. Non-salmon aquatic demand and non-aquatic demand will absorb any newly available, lower cost supply resulting from a decease in use in salmon diets until such point as their increased demand causes sufficiently increased price that other alternatives become more economic. At that point, demand will level off again. In the interim, harvests of fish for fish meal will increase to stabilize fishing income and it is unlikely it will decrease again once the point of demand stability is reached.

In simplest terms, in spite of your flawed understanding, eliminating salmon farming demand for fish meal will decrease the price of meal resulting in increased demand by other feed sectors and that will stimulate an increase in supply. The only way to regulate supply of fish meal is to regulate the fishing for the fish that fish meal is made from just as fishing for salmon, halibut and a multitude of other species has been regulated.


Repeating your flawed logic and adding more words to it does not make your logic any more plausible.

It's a typical salmon farming tactic, to point to something else rather than taking responsibility. The industry does the same thing with respect to usage of antibiotics, their sealice problem, PCB's, and poisoning of the surrounding ocean environment.

Unfortunately like with the tobacco industry, government legislation is the only thing that will ever bring the industry to rein....
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alwaysfishn

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Re: Salmon farming depleting the ocean's fish stocks
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2012, 12:34:40 PM »

You haven't established that salmon farming is causing any damage to BC wild salmon and you're ignoring the effect that up to 5 billion introduced hatchery fish will have on the food supply in the open ocean where BC wild salmon spend the majority of their lives.

The tobacco industry uses similar arguments.....   http://www.freedom-of-choice.com/AS3.htm

We're all aware of how credible their claims are....    ::)  ::)
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absolon

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Re: Salmon farming depleting the ocean's fish stocks
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2012, 01:05:35 PM »

Repeating your flawed logic and adding more words to it does not make your logic any more plausible.

It's a typical salmon farming tactic, to point to something else rather than taking responsibility. The industry does the same thing with respect to usage of antibiotics, their sealice problem, PCB's, and poisoning of the surrounding ocean environment.

Unfortunately like with the tobacco industry, government legislation is the only thing that will ever bring the industry to rein....

What am I thinking? You're right! Of course pigs can fly. Only an idiot would say they can't.
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absolon

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Re: Salmon farming depleting the ocean's fish stocks
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2012, 01:09:01 PM »

The tobacco industry uses similar arguments.....   http://www.freedom-of-choice.com/AS3.htm

We're all aware of how credible their claims are....    ::)  ::)

How come every time I challenge one of your statements you immediately start talking about something else that someone told you?
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Bassonator

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Re: Salmon farming depleting the ocean's fish stocks
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2012, 01:29:43 PM »

How come every time I challenge one of your statements you immediately start talking about something else that someone told you?

Its because guys like AF and the antifarmers cant really think for themselves...must have other people do it for them.... ::)
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