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[Bassonator]

And this is why my last salmon caught was 2009 I now only fish stillwaters. I find it funny everybody whining about who is allocated what, guys bitch and whine about the fish farms, yet no one says anything about the sporties and the commies.  We just sit here and ask when the fish are running and is there gonna be an opening ...it is to laugh...So ive done my little bit by giving up fishing for salmon.

[deepcovehooker]

I was on the River last Tuesday.   There was a group of F/N working their magic across the river from me at the Power Lines.  I saw them do 3 dips and come up with 1 fish.   They spent more time on the river bank than fishing.

[Spooner]

Hey Bassonator,
Love the profile pic.........

[chris gadsden]

How much would it cost to hire some good lawyers to straighten this out and establish exactly what the right is. It seems to me this right is never challenged by "settlers" or law enforcement really they are all to scared of being branded as racialist

The SDA (Sports Fishing Defense Alliance) under the leadership of the late Bill Otway worked on this issue for many many years but the lack of support by many, including monetary contributions saw it fade away after many years if hard work by Bill and many others.

If you did not know about the SDA, Goggle it, there will be some info still info there I think.

[fishbandit66]

Do yar readin' me hearty, for when ya be an informed man ya be far less angry at the world for yar troubles!

R. v. Sparrow, [1990] 1 S.C.R. 1075
http://scc.lexum.org/en/1990/1990scr1-1075/1990scr1-1075.html

Delgamuukw v. British Columbia, [1997] 3 S.C.R. 1010
http://scc.lexum.org/en/1997/1997scr3-1010/1997scr3-1010.html

R. v. N.T.C. Smokehouse Ltd., [1996] 2 S.C.R. 672
http://scc.lexum.org/en/1996/1996scr2-672/1996scr2-672.html

R. v. Kapp, [2008] 2 S.C.R. 483
http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/scc/doc/2008/2008scc41/2008scc41.pdf

Cynical maybe but not angry my peg legged friend!

I took the liberty of reading those links which only really serves to reiterate my point before about the Sparrow case. Only that case establishes the aborignal right to fish / hunt. the others just reference it and do not attempt to dispute it. Of the cases you mention:

Delgamuukw - establishes there is a difference between rights and title. Also establishes that wearing unconventional clothes whist dancing and singing a 1000 year old song in a language other than English or French is in fact admissible as evidence in a Canadian court.

N.T.C. Smokehouse Ltd - establishes that First Nations do not have a right to sell fish caught under food/ceremonial license. Perhaps the moderators of Craigslist should be made aware of this decision. http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/pml/for/3168953965.html  http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/van/for/3159220976.html

Kapp - establishes that giving First Nations more commercial fishing opportunities than other groups is not racist or discriminating. I thought this case was the most interesting and frankly full of ****. Apparently the judge said they were given extra rights because of their poor socio-economic status not because of their race. That being the case maybe they should offer the same privileges to people from the downtown eastside? Also the judge said that starting the season a day earlier than everyone else is not even a big enough benefit to be called discrimination.

I wouldnt like to guess the amount of time money and effort wasted on these cases. I will me making sure my kids go to law school and work in this kind of field, must be a huge gravy train.

[Sandman]

I took the liberty of reading those links which only really serves to reiterate my point before about the Sparrow case. Only that case establishes the aborignal right to fish / hunt. the others just reference it and do not attempt to dispute it.

That is because you cannot dispute a Supreme Court decision...that's what makes it "supreme."  Once the Supreme Court established the right, then future cases just need to reference it.  You do not need to spend millions more dollars making the same arguments again, although I am sure the lawyers wished you did.

[Burbot]

Yes but you can try and take it back to the Supreme court and hope they re consider and with new judges, who knows.. The hard way would be to get enough people to try and change the constitution but in a couple generations though they won't be able to blame 'whitey' anymore for their problems (despite the billions a year they get from people who work for a living) as the make up of Canada is changing and many more people that have come from worse places than the FN an dthey won't have any time for them.

[Sandman]

Yes but you can try and take it back to the Supreme court and hope they re consider and with new judges, who knows.. The hard way would be to get enough people to try and change the constitution but in a couple generations though they won't be able to blame 'whitey' anymore for their problems (despite the billions a year they get from people who work for a living) as the make up of Canada is changing and many more people that have come from worse places than the FN and they won't have any time for them.

I should not dignify that bigoted comment with a response, but you cannot "take it back to the supreme court and hope they reconsider."   Maybe we should take back some other cases that you disagree with too.  I never thought businesses should be allowed to open on Sunday, and shouldn't doctors and parents really be allowed to sterilize the mentally handicapped?  I never liked that ruling that gave women the right to an abortion either.  Don't get me started on same sex marriages!  Shall I go on?

Face it. You live in unceded territory, territory of a sovereign nation, a nation of people recognized by then King of England as having inherent rights to the land, and you really should be thankful you can fish at all. There are some, the Cheam, for example, who do not feel you have any right to be here at all.  This is their territory and you are trespassing.  They signed no treaties with the British or Canadian governments.  You would be singing a different tune if the Chinese army occupied the lower mainland, forced you to adopt Chinese culture, and told you you could no longer sport fish as they believe salmon are to be used for commercial purposes only.  The First Nations people are protecting their rights as the people of the first nation in this land.  Until those rights are extinguished in a treaty, they are their rights regardless of the whim of a new set of judges.  Do not allow a few bad examples to convince you to stereotype the whole lot as "people who [do not] work for a living."  Not all First Nations fishermen are poachers, just as not all Canadian fishermen are poachers, despite numerous examples of those that are.

[RalphH]

the Supreme court won't revisit the past facts and arguments of previous courts. It doesn't matter that the member judges change. Changes in society do matter but that usually takes at least a generation if or 2. For example close to 60 years separated the Plessy vs Fergusson ruling in the US - the ruling that upheld the racial segregation laws that followed the civil war and the Brown vs the Board of Education ruling that declared racially segregated schools unconstitutional and lead to the dismantling of segregation within 10 or 15 years.

Native rights to harvest fish game and plants has been law in Canada for about 250 years. The courts saw those rights as fixed in 1867 - that is what rights hey have are based on the purposes they harvested for at Confederation

It's hard to see any ruling that would seriously change Sparrow. Sparrow simply established the native right to harvest fish before all other considerations excepting conservation. Sparrow did not confirm or deny a right for natives to sell fish for profit. In fact the only ruling on that has denied it. The Federal Government has established separate agreements allowing commercial sale and generally looks the other way for most commercial activity. Don't expect that to change anytime soon either.

The Sport Fishing Defence fund was IMO something of a joke. Otway et al never established in what way native rights endangered sport fishing. Mostly what the argument was was selfish bickering about who got the biggest piece of a shrinking pie. I am glad it died with a whimper. 

[Dave]

Aye Aye!  I doth remember a fine summer day about twelve years ago, tossing out Spin&Glows on PEG LEG bar when Mr Otway and his cronies done shown up for a protest.  Flossing themselves a Nerka was what they thought would be the way to 'protest' what was already a dead and alid to rest issue.  I done snubbed them when asked to give some cutter to their cause.  Aye, Then I watched in horror as they flew Canadian Flags upside down. Any Jack Salt knows this to be a sign of distress.  But to me, it be a slighter against Elizabeth II herself! Swabbers! I bore witness when a small armada of them sallied over to the far bank for a floss-a-thon to snag themselves a single Martyred Nerka, club it on the head and present it triumphantly to a Fisheries Constable.  Fight the fine they would, aye! Just to go about trying to prove some silly point which was laced with ignorant undertones of racism and bigotry.  I knew it was all being done just to make sure the Nerka snag fishery opened and all his mates with their flotilla of yet to be paid off jet boats could earn a dubloon or two taking snaggers out on the flow for their chance to hook the great Nerka Salmon of the Fraser River.  Yarrrrgh, it doth shiver me timbers to think of such farce. 

Though it be poor form to hold the dead in ill regard, but this humble pirate never did have a good opinion of Mr Otway.  I done canceled my subscription to Sport Fishing BC after I got ill from reading the vile matter the publication let Mr Otway publish in every issue.  Aye, I wanted to read about fishing adventures, but was met with ill gab from an ill man who had not but ill to say.  No thankee me hearties.  A saint he be not.  My voice he be not.  A skinny sick dog fighting for the last bone on the cage is what he was!  Aye! I done said it. 

Drink up me hearties yo ho!

Perhaps your best yet Pirate.  Totally agree

[fishbandit66]

You would be singing a different tune if the Chinese army occupied the lower mainland, forced you to adopt Chinese culture, and told you you could no longer sport fish as they believe salmon are to be used for commercial purposes only. 

Not really, if I felt that strongly I would just move somewhere else. Voting with your feet has been an important part of so many things in world history.

[chris gadsden]

Aye Aye!  I doth remember a fine summer day about twelve years ago, tossing out Spin&Glows on PEG LEG bar when Mr Otway and his cronies done shown up for a protest.  Flossing themselves a Nerka was what they thought would be the way to 'protest' what was already a dead and alid to rest issue.  I done snubbed them when asked to give some cutter to their cause.  Aye, Then I watched in horror as they flew Canadian Flags upside down. Any Jack Salt knows this to be a sign of distress.  But to me, it be a slighter against Elizabeth II herself! Swabbers! I bore witness when a small armada of them sallied over to the far bank for a floss-a-thon to snag themselves a single Martyred Nerka, club it on the head and present it triumphantly to a Fisheries Constable.  Fight the fine they would, aye! Just to go about trying to prove some silly point which was laced with ignorant undertones of racism and bigotry.  I knew it was all being done just to make sure the Nerka snag fishery opened and all his mates with their flotilla of yet to be paid off jet boats could earn a dubloon or two taking snaggers out on the flow for their chance to hook the great Nerka Salmon of the Fraser River.  Yarrrrgh, it doth shiver me timbers to think of such farce.  

Though it be poor form to hold the dead in ill regard, but this humble pirate never did have a good opinion of Mr Otway.  I done canceled my subscription to Sport Fishing BC after I got ill from reading the vile matter the publication let Mr Otway publish in every issue.  Aye, I wanted to read about fishing adventures, but was met with ill gab from an ill man who had not but ill to say.  No thankee me hearties.  A saint he be not.  My voice he be not.  A skinny sick dog fighting for the last bone on the cage is what he was!  Aye! I done said it.  

Drink up me hearties yo ho!

I took part in this protest too, being a member of the SDA as well but the Leaf Craft my mighty ship flew our flag in the correct position with pride.  You may personally not agree with the actions of Bill and that is your choice but Bill did a lot of good for the hunting and fishing community during his life and was a person who worked for what he believed in, he did not just sit on the sidelines and talked about issues which of course is easy for many of us to do, not saying you are one of those and we all do appreciate your way of posting on topics.

 I disliked very strongly then and now as most people know, TOW, NG (the other way) and BIll and I disagreed on this many times but he accepted that and we remained friends and it was sad to see him pass away a few years ago.

He like like most of us had his short comings on issues but tell me a person that does not. This method of taking fish is a plight on the fishing community, so not wanting to rehash that topic again I will leave it at that.

[alwaysfishn]

I took part in this protest too, being a member of the SDA as well but the Leaf Craft my mighty ship flew our flag in the correct position with pride.  You may personally not agree with the actions of Bill and that is your choice but Bill did a lot of good for the hunting and fishing community during his life and was a person who worked for what he believed in, he did not just sit on the sidelines and talked about issues which of course is easy for many of us to do, not saying you are one of those and we all do appreciate your way of posting on topics.

 I disliked very strongly then and now as most people know, TOW, NG (the other way) and BIll and I disagreed on this many times but he accepted that and we remained friends and it was sad to see him pass away a few years ago.

He like like most of us had his short comings on issues but tell me a person that does not. This method of taking fish is a plight on the fishing community, so not wanting to rehash that topic again I will leave it at that.

Well said Chris!

[liketofish]

Sandman posted "You would be singing a different tune if the Chinese army occupied the lower mainland, forced you to adopt Chinese culture, and told you you could no longer sport fish as they believe salmon are to be used for commercial purposes only"

LOL! The Chinese army will never come here, but their army of immigrants and money already arrive long ago. Don't you see those Richmond homes in Rodney's neighbourhood jumping up in prices by the millions and Rodney may already be a multi-millionaire.  

Chinese culture is already here and people are taking them by storm. Just look at all the crowd at Chinese restaurants, at Richmond night markets, at Dragon Boat Festival and at Chinese New Year celebrations, you will find many non-Chinese people gladly enjoying with the Chinese people. I bet you if the Chinese are in control, they champion the right of every citizen to fish. Everybody can fish for free and even snakeheads 'the monster fish' will be all over the place.    With their huge currency reserve, they should create salmon & steelhead bonanza for us by building lots of hatcheries and stocking them with hundreds of millions of fry much like the Americans do.  Another thing, you may save your fishing license fee. Last time I visited China and fished there, I don't think my friends asked me to buy expensive visitor's license, and I didn't see any COs around trying to extract the last drop of your disposal income with violation tickets. Hmmm, China is so loaded with cash reserve and USA & Europe owing them so much money, why would they bother with your petty little fines.  

[Athezone]

I took part in this protest too, being a member of the SDA as well but the Leaf Craft my mighty ship flew our flag in the correct position with pride.  You may personally not agree with the actions of Bill and that is your choice but Bill did a lot of good for the hunting and fishing community during his life and was a person who worked for what he believed in, he did not just sit on the sidelines and talked about issues which of course is easy for many of us to do, not saying you are one of those and we all do appreciate your way of posting on topics.

 I disliked very strongly then and now as most people know, TOW, NG (the other way) and BIll and I disagreed on this many times but he accepted that and we remained friends and it was sad to see him pass away a few years ago.

He like like most of us had his short comings on issues but tell me a person that does not. This method of taking fish is a plight on the fishing community, so not wanting to rehash that topic again I will leave it at that.

Could'nt of said it better Chris, none of us are perfect and it is great to see that although you disagreed about TOW, NG you were still man enough to accept him as a friend and him, you. I hate to see the fishing community splintered and divided for 2 months each year as this issue is addressed, dissected and disagreed upon. With all the crazy stuff happening in the world and this the Huge issue, hmmmm.