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[alwaysfishn]

Could'nt of said it better Chris, none of us are perfect and it is great to see that although you disagreed about TOW, NG you were still man enough to accept him as a friend and him, you. I hate to see the fishing community splintered and divided for 2 months each year as this issue is addressed, dissected and disagreed upon. With all the crazy stuff happening in the world and this the Huge issue, hmmmm.

Another great post!

[liketofish]

Chris posted "This method of taking fish is a plight on the fishing community"

That is only true if it is done on other system like the Vedder. There are better methods (like short floating) than bb on smaller systems. But it is not a plight on the Fraser and fishing community is not restricted to some exclusive fishermen. In the fishing world, people use fish traps, nets, even spears to catch some fish, so catching unbiting fish by bb with one rod and a single barbless hook is civil and much less destructive to fish stock than drift nets (which DFO is willing to allow the natives to do).

[Bassonator]

Sandman posted "You would be singing a different tune if the Chinese army occupied the lower mainland, forced you to adopt Chinese culture, and told you you could no longer sport fish as they believe salmon are to be used for commercial purposes only"

LOL! The Chinese army will never come here, but their army of immigrants and money already arrive long ago. Don't you see those Richmond homes in Rodney's neighbourhood jumping up in prices by the millions and Rodney may already be a multi-millionaire.  

Chinese culture is already here and people are taking them by storm. Just look at all the crowd at Chinese restaurants, at Richmond night markets, at Dragon Boat Festival and at Chinese New Year celebrations, you will find many non-Chinese people gladly enjoying with the Chinese people. I bet you if the Chinese are in control, they champion the right of every citizen to fish. Everybody can fish for free and even snakeheads 'the monster fish' will be all over the place.    With their huge currency reserve, they should create salmon & steelhead bonanza for us by building lots of hatcheries and stocking them with hundreds of millions of fry much like the Americans do.  Another thing, you may save your fishing license fee. Last time I visited China and fished there, I don't think my friends asked me to buy expensive visitor's license, and I didn't see any COs around trying to extract the last drop of your disposal income with violation tickets. Hmmm, China is so loaded with cash reserve and USA & Europe owing them so much money, why would they bother with your petty little fines.  

you are kidding right..

[Sandman]

Sandman posted "You would be singing a different tune if the Chinese army occupied the lower mainland, forced you to adopt Chinese culture, and told you you could no longer sport fish as they believe salmon are to be used for commercial purposes only"

LOL! The Chinese army will never come here, but their army of immigrants and money already arrive long ago. Don't you see those Richmond homes in Rodney's neighbourhood jumping up in prices by the millions and Rodney may already be a multi-millionaire.  

Chinese culture is already here and people are taking them by storm. Just look at all the crowd at Chinese restaurants, at Richmond night markets, at Dragon Boat Festival and at Chinese New Year celebrations, you will find many non-Chinese people gladly enjoying with the Chinese people. I bet you if the Chinese are in control, they champion the right of every citizen to fish. Everybody can fish for free and even snakeheads 'the monster fish' will be all over the place.    With their huge currency reserve, they should create salmon & steelhead bonanza for us by building lots of hatcheries and stocking them with hundreds of millions of fry much like the Americans do.  Another thing, you may save your fishing license fee. Last time I visited China and fished there, I don't think my friends asked me to buy expensive visitor's license, and I didn't see any COs around trying to extract the last drop of your disposal income with violation tickets. Hmmm, China is so loaded with cash reserve and USA & Europe owing them so much money, why would they bother with your petty little fines.  

Clearly you missed the point, the choice of colonizer is irrelevant, I might as well said they were aliens from Vega. The point was, if someone were to come here and start telling me I could no longer practice my culture in my own land, then I would have something to say about it.  I would not "vote with my feet" and simply move away as has been the case in "world history" (I believe with the Jews this was referred to as the diaspora, or great dispersal).  No, I would stay, and I would fight to protect my rights and way of life that I enjoyed before the newcomers.  They are not saying we cannot fish the streams their ancestors fished for millennia, they are just saying they want first dibs.

[Bassonator]

Clearly you missed the point, the choice of colonizer is irrelevant, I might as well said they were aliens from Vega. The point was, if someone were to come here and start telling me I could no longer practice my culture in my own land, then I would have something to say about it.  I would not "vote with my feet" and simply move away as has been the case in "world history" (I believe with the Jews this was referred to as the diaspora, or great dispersal).  No, I would stay, and I would fight to protect my rights and way of life that I enjoyed before the newcomers.  They are not saying we cannot fish the streams their ancestors fished for millennia, they are just saying they want first dibs.

Now that is an awesome post!!

[Bassonator]

Sandman posted "You would be singing a different tune if the Chinese army occupied the lower mainland, forced you to adopt Chinese culture, and told you you could no longer sport fish as they believe salmon are to be used for commercial purposes only"

LOL! The Chinese army will never come here, but their army of immigrants and money already arrive long ago. Don't you see those Richmond homes in Rodney's neighbourhood jumping up in prices by the millions and Rodney may already be a multi-millionaire.  

Chinese culture is already here and people are taking them by storm. Just look at all the crowd at Chinese restaurants, at Richmond night markets, at Dragon Boat Festival and at Chinese New Year celebrations, you will find many non-Chinese people gladly enjoying with the Chinese people. I bet you if the Chinese are in control, they champion the right of every citizen to fish. Everybody can fish for free and even snakeheads 'the monster fish' will be all over the place.    With their huge currency reserve, they should create salmon & steelhead bonanza for us by building lots of hatcheries and stocking them with hundreds of millions of fry much like the Americans do.  Another thing, you may save your fishing license fee. Last time I visited China and fished there, I don't think my friends asked me to buy expensive visitor's license, and I didn't see any COs around trying to extract the last drop of your disposal income with violation tickets. Hmmm, China is so loaded with cash reserve and USA & Europe owing them so much money, why would they bother with your petty little fines.  

Well if things are so much better over there....dont let the door hit ya on the way out!!

[Bassonator]

But it Be the plight that you speak of good sir!  Aye, when a man like Mr Otway done joined the swabbers to go snag a Nerka, he stepped on to the decks of the wrong ship.  Aye, the economic force behind the Fraser Nerkas be huge.  There be many a guide who no canna put cutter on the debt owed for their jet boats without it.  "Lads! Avast! Come with me! Snag yar two Nerkas in the morning then go wrastle with transmontanus in the afternoon! $250 a head! What say ye?" It be amazing how fast a man does sell out his principals when financials are at hand.  Lo, I do remember when young Rodney was threatened with losing advertisers if he didn't quash the talk of snaggin' on this here forum.  

A swabber be a swab, and called one he must.  Anyone who does go snagging for Nerkas on the Fraser River be not but a swab in the captains books.  Aye aye!

X2

[Dave]

OK Pirate I'm convinced, I'll buy the first round

[Dennis.t]

Aye Aye!  I doth remember a fine summer day about twelve years ago, tossing out Spin&Glows on PEG LEG bar when Mr Otway and his cronies done shown up for a protest.  Flossing themselves a Nerka was what they thought would be the way to 'protest' what was already a dead and alid to rest issue.  I done snubbed them when asked to give some cutter to their cause.  Aye, Then I watched in horror as they flew Canadian Flags upside down. Any Jack Salt knows this to be a sign of distress.  But to me, it be a slighter against Elizabeth II herself! Swabbers! I bore witness when a small armada of them sallied over to the far bank for a floss-a-thon to snag themselves a single Martyred Nerka, club it on the head and present it triumphantly to a Fisheries Constable.  Fight the fine they would, aye! Just to go about trying to prove some silly point which was laced with ignorant undertones of racism and bigotry.  I knew it was all being done just to make sure the Nerka snag fishery opened and all his mates with their flotilla of yet to be paid off jet boats could earn a dubloon or two taking snaggers out on the flow for their chance to hook the great Nerka Salmon of the Fraser River.  Yarrrrgh, it doth shiver me timbers to think of such farce. 

Though it be poor form to hold the dead in ill regard, but this humble pirate never did have a good opinion of Mr Otway.  I done canceled my subscription to Sport Fishing BC after I got ill from reading the vile matter the publication let Mr Otway publish in every issue.  Aye, I wanted to read about fishing adventures, but was met with ill gab from an ill man who had not but ill to say.  No thankee me hearties.  A saint he be not.  My voice he be not.  A skinny sick dog fighting for the last bone on the cage is what he was!  Aye! I done said it. 

Drink up me hearties yo ho!

I will drink to that! Your best post to date.

[Sandman]

I will drink to that! Your best post to date.

Aye, Aye, Dennis.

[fishbandit66]

Clearly you missed the point, the choice of colonizer is irrelevant, I might as well said they were aliens from Vega. The point was, if someone were to come here and start telling me I could no longer practice my culture in my own land, then I would have something to say about it.  I would not "vote with my feet" and simply move away as has been the case in "world history" (I believe with the Jews this was referred to as the diaspora, or great dispersal).  No, I would stay, and I would fight to protect my rights and way of life that I enjoyed before the newcomers.  They are not saying we cannot fish the streams their ancestors fished for millennia, they are just saying they want first dibs.

Clearly you have missed the point too.

Multi culturalism, adapting and learning from others is more important now than ever. Globalization and a pretty slack immigration policy in Canada have made this even more important in the last decade for us especially. You and your descendants will never be winners by staying the same. Equally no community/ country / race will progress and succeed in life by being stubborn and refusing to accept the ideas of others (in this case sharing resources equally for the common good of all). Whilst I am not saying noone should all be pushed around and give up their "rights" and way of life with abandon, they need to be mindful of social as well as economic progression.

Lets also not forget that these "rights" were informally agreed about 150 years ago. Things have changed considerably since then. At the time women werent allowed to vote for starters and noone could disagree that the world is a better place now for women sharing the right to vote. I think its safe to say you wouldnt get very far if you tried to ban women voting based on 150 year old laws / customs / traditions / rights.

The world has changed a lot since the 1860s, and most people have adapted to it. Other countries have embraced equality, its time we did the same.

[Sandman]

Clearly you have missed the point too.

Multi culturalism, adapting and learning from others is more important now than ever. Globalization and a pretty slack immigration policy in Canada have made this even more important in the last decade for us especially. You and your descendants will never be winners by staying the same. Equally no community/ country / race will progress and succeed in life by being stubborn and refusing to accept the ideas of others (in this case sharing resources equally for the common good of all). Whilst I am not saying noone should all be pushed around and give up their "rights" and way of life with abandon, they need to be mindful of social as well as economic progression.

Lets also not forget that these "rights" were informally agreed about 150 years ago. Things have changed considerably since then. At the time women werent allowed to vote for starters and noone could disagree that the world is a better place now for women sharing the right to vote. I think its safe to say you wouldnt get very far if you tried to ban women voting based on 150 year old laws / customs / traditions / rights.

The world has changed a lot since the 1860s, and most people have adapted to it. Other countries have embraced equality, its time we did the same.

That is a bit of a red herring as I never said the natives should be stripped of their rights to fish (as the women would be stripped of their their right to vote), you did.  And these rights were not "informally" agreed to, the King put their right to what he called their "hunting grounds" into a Royal Proclamation in 1776 (of course he was serving his own interest as it was an attempt to slow the expansion of the American Colonies into the Indian Territories).  They are, nonetheless, now engrained into our Constitution.  You suggest other countries have embraced equality, but perhaps you could give examples (American Indians? South and Central American natives? Australian Aborigines? New Zealand Maori?  And how would the equality work?  If there are not enough salmon for all parties (commercial, sport, and aboriginal) then no one fishes?  Already sport fishers may get to fish even if a commercial opening is not possible.  I am glad, however, that you accept that the world is changing and that native culture is and was not stagnant, and so they should not have to resort to 18th century methods to exercise their inherent rights.

[anorden]

That is a bit of a red herring as I never said the natives should be stripped of their rights to fish (as the women would be stripped of their their right to vote), you did.  And these rights were not "informally" agreed to, the King put their right to what he called their "hunting grounds" into a Royal Proclamation in 1776 (of course he was serving his own interest as it was an attempt to slow the expansion of the American Colonies into the Indian Territories).  They are, nonetheless, now engrained into our Constitution.  You suggest other countries have embraced equality, but perhaps you could give examples (American Indians? South and Central American natives? Australian Aborigines? New Zealand Maori?  And how would the equality work?  If there are not enough salmon for all parties (commercial, sport, and aboriginal) then no one fishes?  Already sport fishers may get to fish even if a commercial opening is not possible.  I am glad, however, that you accept that the world is changing and that native culture is and was not stagnant, and so they should not have to resort to 18th century methods to exercise their inherent rights.

Why cant there be a lottery system to limit catches like there is in hunting?

[fishbandit66]

That is a bit of a red herring as I never said the natives should be stripped of their rights to fish (as the women would be stripped of their their right to vote), you did.  And these rights were not "informally" agreed to, the King put their right to what he called their "hunting grounds" into a Royal Proclamation in 1776 (of course he was serving his own interest as it was an attempt to slow the expansion of the American Colonies into the Indian Territories).  They are, nonetheless, now engrained into our Constitution.  You suggest other countries have embraced equality, but perhaps you could give examples (American Indians? South and Central American natives? Australian Aborigines? New Zealand Maori?  And how would the equality work?  If there are not enough salmon for all parties (commercial, sport, and aboriginal) then no one fishes?  Already sport fishers may get to fish even if a commercial opening is not possible.  I am glad, however, that you accept that the world is changing and that native culture is and was not stagnant, and so they should not have to resort to 18th century methods to exercise their inherent rights.

Perhaps we should try to clear up this "red herring". I was not saying we should take away the right of women to vote, I was saying that you cannot use history as a justification for inequality. Just because women were constitutionally not allowed to vote in the 1800s does not mean they should also be forbidden from voting now. So just because the natives were allowed special fishing rights in the 17 and 1800s does not make it reasonable and applicable today.

And with reference to equality, I was referring to equality across race / gender / creed etc, not equality of indigenous vs settler per se. Whether indigenousness falls under the race umbrella (as per previously mentioned court cases) is irrelevant with respect to the bigger picture of equality. But if we look at Europe as a case study, it was colonized / settled / invaded so many times between 1000BC and 1200AD, yet there are no long standing "heredity indigenous rights" like there are here. So because “colonization” happened in Europe a couple of centuries earlier than in Canada I dont see why the principle is suddenly any different.

As for your point about quotas and limits - if there are not enough salmon for all parties then cut limits for everyone equally and fairly. Does it make a difference to a sport fisherman if the limit is 1 2 or 4? Probably not. Personally I would like to see more fisheries have a 1 fish limit, I think it deters the greedy, undesirable and possibly unethical fishermen but thats by the by. Commercials could easily be moved to a transferable quota system, so the less efficient boats could sell out their quotas to make the system work. And on the subject of commercials, lets be honest there are way too many boats and its a generally crappy industry to be in. So I have no problem with the gment retiring some licenses to make the industry more efficient. And as anorden says, the hunt lottery system might be a suggestion too. Such a system has been hugely successful for hunting across all of North America, lets embrace it.

And although I never opened the traditional methods can of worms, whilst we are on the subject in my view we need to be mindful for a couple of reasons. Firstly traditional methods had a fairly limited catch per unit effort which made them self regulating to a large extent. Modern methods have significantly higher CPUEs and therefore do not sustain fish stocks over the long term. Improved technology requires regulation and responsibility. Second, I view social, technological and cultural development as an exercise in compromise. You cant just cherry pick the best bits of socioeconomic development. I love sweet and sour pork, but when I go to a Chinese restaurant I have to put up with chicken feet, pig trotters and pickled jellyfish. So if natives are to get better technology and techniques for catching salmon, they need to be mindful that there are hidden costs and externalities to the technology. So given how much the world is changing, lets all embrace change – including unequal and very outdated FN “laws”.

[RainbowMan]

Has the dropping water levels helped with the FNs neting recently? Has anyone seen them netting the lower river in the past couple of days?