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[Stratocaster]

I know that this is not directed at me persay but at the collective group and I wish I had an answer for you Rod but I don't. The spring salmon opening years back brought on by the Otway group and their in the DFO's face, show of force has exceedingly spiralled out of control. It has spread to other rivers that hadn't seen it before and I feel the only way to eradicate it is to ban it entirely, and I would be fine with that.

But there is more to this than the few printings of words on an internet site that keeps this alive. There is to much money being made by stores selling bouncing bettie's and the general climate of people wanting to fish this way that keeps it open and alive. You can say, "Well you should'nt extoll it virtues and make it seem okay on my site because it only brings more people into it, and you'd be right." But by the same token if you don't want to hear or read the truth on a discussion board then perhaps you should shut the site down because then all you'd have is one sided bias.

I would love to say more Rod but it's late and I have to be up at 6 so I shall be happy to continue this tomorrow after I finish work. Wishing you the Best, nite.
  

I don't think Bill Otway had flossing in mind when he lobbied to have Spring Salmon Retention on the River. 

Also its not one-sided bias against flossing.  This site is called "Fishing with Rod", not "Flossing with Rod" or "Harvesting with Rod" or "Catching with Rod".  The site is primarily dedicated to the promotion of fishing in a sporting manner (enticing the fish to bite).  Rod spends lots of time and energy organizing events like Fish for the future so that kids can learn and participate in "Sports" fishing.

As much skill that some think it takes to floss a spring or sockeye out of the Fraser, I still don't consider it "Sportsfishing".  Its a harvest pure and simple.  I'm not totally against harvesting surplus fish by means of flossing just so long that it is promoted that way as a means to put fish on the table and nothing else.  Therein lies the problem.  Many who partake in this fishery feel that they are fishing heroes and take this to other rivers like the Vedder and Chehalis.  But you might say so what? We are harvesting fish out of the Vedder and Chehalis as well right? Well the difference is that there are others in the river fishing in a sporting manner for fish that actually bite and the method of flossing used will frequently affect how they do.

Those are my opinions for what its worth.

[Rodney]

And certainly anyone with an ounce of sense would realize that the power of FWR is not the root of this evil, in fact FWR is one of if not the best fishing sites on the internet in my opinion. I would just like to say though Rodney that it does exhibit a certain bias when the topic is moved and the title changed from Scale Bar Zoo to 2012 Floss Out. Moving it was fine but the title change clearly shows your disdain.

I moved the topic for a couple of reasons:

It was no longer a fishing report and will turn into a lengthy thread, which puts the report archive out of order.

The fishing report section is only available to limited number of participants. Anyone public or any account has less than 50 posts, or not a subscriber can not see it. It was more relevant to move it to the fishing-related issue section so others have a chance to wade in their thoughts too.

What would you like the title to be called? I can change that for you. I didn't know what to call it and picked a title with some humour as I usually do. It wasn't a conscious decision to demonstrate my view against flossing.

I personally, like all humans, can be bias at times. The forum itself is not, at least we try to keep it that way. This is why I got my moderators instead of just me doing it. A good example was the shark fin soup discussion, where I told dragonspeed that I no longer want to be moderating that thread when participating in the discussion so he should be the one doing all the editing.

[mikeyman]

Flossing is just a way for an inexperienced and uneducated angler to fill the freezer. Fishing is fooling a fish to bite pure and simple. Flossing is snagging, and is at the same level as netting, only you get to try to reel the fish in, and if you are lucky it will be hooked in the side and you will have an even better fight! The guy probably bonks the fish anyways. You tell me there isn't a problem here with it, if anyone has witness the crap going on at the Fraser or  Vedder  the last 10 seasons, you should disagree. Long leaders, drift drift, set the hook every drift, snagged fish, oh bonk it anyways. I would say there was 10% fishing ethically, 90% had no idea. I have participated in bouncing when it first gained popularity, and now, after putting the time into other methods of fishing, bbing is the least rewarding. Barbed hooks, guys not tagging their spring and coming back down a couple hours later, long leaders, snags, loosing lead all day, sore arms, casting out of turn, major tangle ups, shoulder to shoulder, bickering, swearing, guy getting sacked when the fish spat the hook, that was funny, not for him. Fishing out of boundary, keeping foul hooked fish. Leaving garbage all over the river, people killing the wrong fish that have no retention...people going over limits, the list goes on, and now this happens on rivers with great visibility where fish bite regularly and aggressively. Guy kills wild steelhead, swearing it is a spring. GARBAGE EVERYWHERE! Oh and don't you just love it when you find your own little chunk of real state away from the crowd, you start banging off coho after coho, short floating good roe, and then...10 guys with 10 ft leaders crowd you out, okay all yours, I go over there, repeat...10 more crowd, aw-some! I took the time to show the very few that would listen how to shorten up, set up correctly, and it was quite rewarding to see them bang off fish. They were happy to and quite amazed that their friends had showed them how to fish and floss and that is the way we fish out here. BBing is taking over and destroying the ethics of fishing on our local rivers.

  

[Bassonator]

Flossing is just a way for an inexperienced and uneducated angler to fill the freezer. Fishing is fooling a fish to bite pure and simple. Flossing is snagging, and is at the same level as netting, only you get to try to reel the fish in, and if you are lucky it will be hooked in the side and you will have an even better fight! The guy probably bonks the fish anyways. You tell me there isn't a problem here with it, if anyone has witness the crap going on at the Fraser or  Vedder  the last 10 seasons, you should disagree. Long leaders, drift drift, set the hook every drift, snagged fish, oh bonk it anyways. I would say there was 10% fishing ethically, 90% had no idea. I have participated in bouncing when it first gained popularity, and now, after putting the time into other methods of fishing, bbing is the least rewarding. Barbed hooks, guys not tagging their spring and coming back down a couple hours later, long leaders, snags, loosing lead all day, sore arms, casting out of turn, major tangle ups, shoulder to shoulder, bickering, swearing, guy getting sacked when the fish spat the hook, that was funny, not for him. Fishing out of boundary, keeping foul hooked fish. Leaving garbage all over the river, people killing the wrong fish that have no retention...people going over limits, the list goes on, and now this happens on rivers with great visibility where fish bite regularly and aggressively. Guy kills wild steelhead, swearing it is a spring. GARBAGE EVERYWHERE! Oh and don't you just love it when you find your own little chunk of real state away from the crowd, you start banging off coho after coho, short floating good roe, and then...10 guys with 10 ft leaders crowd you out, okay all yours, I go over there, repeat...10 more crowd, aw-some! I took the time to show the very few that would listen how to shorten up, set up correctly, and it was quite rewarding to see them bang off fish. They were happy to and quite amazed that their friends had showed them how to fish and floss and that is the way we fish out here. BBing is taking over and destroying the ethics of fishing on our local rivers.

  

Awesome post and so true, if I cant catch em fishing Ill snag..oooops floss em.

[liketofish]

You can apply most of your descriptions above to the Vedder too. In fact it is worse at the Vedder. The crowd, the garbage, the snagging (yes, intentional snagging by jerking the rod towards the end of each drift when fishing the rapids), the crowded fish holes with people fishing shoulder to shoulder, and hooks catching the wrong body part of crowded fish even by float fishing or flyfishing. In terms of damaging a fish, there is nothing worse than foul hooking it and fighting it in a rapid, and letting the hook tear apart the flesh of the fish, or letting it tire out to near death because of the prolong battle of landing a foul hooked fish. These foul hookings happen so much more often on the Vedder than bottom bouncing on the Fraser. In a day of bb the Fraser, you rarely see a foul hooked fish. But if you are fishing a crowded fish hole on the Vedder, there will be a foul hooked fish every few minutes. Why don't you go to Tamahi or even the bottom of Keith Wilson Bridge & take a look. In terms of bonking the wrong fish, or keeping over the limit, is the Vedder exempt from these problems? Why are we still allowing the Vedder fishery open then based on your argument? These problems are not a result of the location or method of fishing. They are created by fishermen, a human issue. Most of the time, bbers know the game of crowded fishing and they respect and tolerate crowding. There is usually a open spirit about it and people look past these issues to have a good time out in the bars. For someone who don't like crowd, they can buy a boat and hide away to some islands on the Fraser. We live in a free society and must learn to respect other's legal choices.

Regarding the issue of bbers doing bb in the other system, I think the economics of bb (expensive) will teach new fishermen very fast that they simply cannot afford doing that in a smaller system. The weaker flow of a smaller system plus its rocky river bed simply will eat up their betties in a hurry that they will be looking out for a better method fast. When a newbie fisherman sees a floater catching fish more often and with less expensive equipment, he will be switching over to the better methods. But of course, you will see the 1st year or 2nd year greenies doing their bb start here & there, particularly at some meat holes. DFO should send more COs to those spots to ticket those keeping a fouled hook fish. That should serve a warning to these newbies and will motivate them to switch to method better suited to these smaller systems.

[Rodney]

Liketofish, you should be either a politician or a lobbyist if you aren't one already.

[liketofish]

Politician? The way they get paid for their pension, it is surely tempting. 

Lobbyist? Rodney is a much better candidate then most members here. Well rounded knowledge and education, and well grounded personality.

Saying that, I will jump in the lobbying band wagon if it comes to sharks fin soup   

Well, better stay out of personal thing when the discussion is about "to floss or not to floss" 

[Rodney]

Well rounded knowledge and education, and well grounded personality.

No... Those aren't the qualities I see in a lobbyist...

Again, I ask the question that never seems to get answered.

How do you allow the Fraser River flossery without affecting the angling quality of other tributaries by keeping the technique away even though by definition it is legal to use in all waters?

Athezone has given a thoughtful answer, which is there isn't an immediate solution.

liketofish is still busy defending a fishery that is already legal by maintaining that it hardly has any impact on the resource or angling quality and diverting all problems to other fishing methods.

[Athezone]

I don't think Bill Otway had flossing in mind when he lobbied to have Spring Salmon Retention on the River. 

You just might want to review your notes on Bill Otway or better yet just do a search on FWR for "Letter from Bill Otway to Paul Ryall" posted on FWR on August 26, 2009.

And Rod, I understood exactly why you moved it and I certainly don't have any problem with it at all. Still don't know why you didn't just keep the same title but it's your board and you can do what pleases you.

Mikeyman say's "Flossing is just a way for an inexperienced and uneducated angler to fill the freezer and yadda, yadda, yadda and so on and so on."
Do I seem uneducated and I would place a bet, a dollar to a donut that if I went out fishing with any fisherman on this board I would outfish them or at the very least prove my mettle and show my skills.

He is very right about one thing when he writes, "BBing is taking over and destroying the ethics of fishing on our local rivers." To that I wholeheartedly agree. So what do we do about it to stop it from spreading from the Fraser to our local rivers. I thought about this long and hard and the only solution I could see was to ban it entirely. But would that stop it, No ! Enforcement would be an issue and DFO is so thin right now it's unreal.

And I've seen fishermen bb with a piece of lead and a 3 or 4 foot leader on the Vedder so how do you control that. Of course we could just all turn into fly fishermen and that would end the problem of flossing. Not !!! I've seen so many fish get flossed with fly line and their long leaders that it's silly and if thats the solution then we haven't solved much. My older brother uses nothing but his fly line on the Fraser for sockeye and he says it's way easier to floss with than a bb. And of course we've all heard of the spey fisherman who hooks into 5 or 6 steelhead in one day in zero visibility conditions so what's that tell you.

The answer definitely isn't easy to find and I feel we shall be searching for the solution for quite some time. The wife say's dinner's ready so to all of you, I wish you a Good night.

 

[Stratocaster]

You just might want to review your notes on Bill Otway or better yet just do a search on FWR for "Letter from Bill Otway to Paul Ryall" posted on FWR on August 26, 2009.

And Rod, I understood exactly why you moved it and I certainly don't have any problem with it at all. Still don't know why you didn't just keep the same title but it's your board and you can do what pleases you.

Mikeyman say's "Flossing is just a way for an inexperienced and uneducated angler to fill the freezer and yadda, yadda, yadda and so on and so on."
Do I seem uneducated and I would place a bet, a dollar to a donut that if I went out fishing with any fisherman on this board I would outfish them or at the very least prove my mettle and show my skills.

He is very right about one thing when he writes, "BBing is taking over and destroying the ethics of fishing on our local rivers." To that I wholeheartedly agree. So what do we do about it to stop it from spreading from the Fraser to our local rivers. I thought about this long and hard and the only solution I could see was to ban it entirely. But would that stop it, No ! Enforcement would be an issue and DFO is so thin right now it's unreal.

And I've seen fishermen bb with a piece of lead and a 3 or 4 foot leader on the Vedder so how do you control that. Of course we could just all turn into fly fishermen and that would end the problem of flossing. Not !!! I've seen so many fish get flossed with fly line and their long leaders that it's silly and if thats the solution then we haven't solved much. My older brother uses nothing but his fly line on the Fraser for sockeye and he says it's way easier to floss with than a bb. And of course we've all heard of the spey fisherman who hooks into 5 or 6 steelhead in one day in zero visibility conditions so what's that tell you.

The answer definitely isn't easy to find and I feel we shall be searching for the solution for quite some time. The wife say's dinner's ready so to all of you, I wish you a Good night.

 

Actually, I was referring to many years ago when there was no retention of springs by the Rec Sector on the Fraser.  If it wasn't Bill Otway that initially lobbied for an opening I stand corrected.

[Athezone]

Hi Stratocaster, if I understand correctly it was initially started by Chris Gadsen and Fred Helmer and over the years Fred Helmer Sr., Pete Sellmer, Sandy Richie and Bill Otway all worked together to lobby and pressure the elected officials and the D.F.O of the day to reopen the Fraser River and allow a sport fishery. Which ultimately did happen.

Great men do Great things and all these men deserve our respect and admiration for all the amazing achievements they've accomplished throughout the years. Thank You to all of you !!!


 

[Athezone]

Hi Rod, I just wanted to say I owe you an apology about why you changed the title of this thread from it's previous one. It was my belief that you were moving the entire thread to this section, I didn't realize you were going to keep the initial thread open still in the fishing reports. So Sorry about that, I apologize and should of known better and been assured that you of all people know what you're doing. Sorry !!!!

[Bandit420]

You just might want to review your notes on Bill Otway or better yet just do a search on FWR for "Letter from Bill Otway to Paul Ryall" posted on FWR on August 26, 2009.

And Rod, I understood exactly why you moved it and I certainly don't have any problem with it at all. Still don't know why you didn't just keep the same title but it's your board and you can do what pleases you.

Mikeyman say's "Flossing is just a way for an inexperienced and uneducated angler to fill the freezer and yadda, yadda, yadda and so on and so on."
Do I seem uneducated and I would place a bet, a dollar to a donut that if I went out fishing with any fisherman on this board I would outfish them or at the very least prove my mettle and show my skills.  Arrogant much? If you are such a skilled fisherman you would jave no need to floss I mean SNAG fish. Ive never personally tooken part in that goon fishery and never will because I dont need to. I get my fish to bite and it is much more rewarding.

He is very right about one thing when he writes, "BBing is taking over and destroying the ethics of fishing on our local rivers." To that I wholeheartedly agree. So what do we do about it to stop it from spreading from the Fraser to our local rivers. I thought about this long and hard and the only solution I could see was to ban it entirely. But would that stop it, No ! Enforcement would be an issue and DFO is so thin right now it's unreal.

And I've seen fishermen bb with a piece of lead and a 3 or 4 foot leader on the Vedder so how do you control that. Of course we could just all turn into fly fishermen and that would end the problem of flossing. Not !!! I've seen so many fish get flossed with fly line and their long leaders that it's silly and if thats the solution then we haven't solved much. My older brother uses nothing but his fly line on the Fraser for sockeye and he says it's way easier to floss with than a bb. And of course we've all heard of the spey fisherman who hooks into 5 or 6 steelhead in one day in zero visibility conditions so what's that tell you.

The answer definitely isn't easy to find and I feel we shall be searching for the solution for quite some time. The wife say's dinner's ready so to all of you, I wish you a Good night.

 

[Bandit420]

My comment is after how great of a fisherman he says he is.

[Athezone]

My comment is after how great of a fisherman he says he is.

Thanks for your input. Everyone is welcome to discuss and let their feelings be known and that's what makes FWR such a great site and I certainly respect your opinion and understand where you're coming from. You'll have to join me sometime when I'm not bb'ing and I'm using bait and maybe then you'd see that one can't paint all with the same brush just because they like to bb.

I know many top rod's and great fishermen, some right from this site that enjoy bb'ing and the cammeraderie that goes with it.  Arrogant, you're the first person in my entire life to refer to me as that, thank you. I always walk like a man with a direction in mind, sure of foot and clear of mind. So perhaps I am. Thank's for posting !!!