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[Rodney]

Rodney, to ask people to change their intent when fishing is a human issue, not fishing issue. Humans are complex animals. They can think differently, sometimes drastically differently, about the same thing. That is why Steven Harper or Obama is a saint to some but a tyrant to others. That is why we have people like PETA members thinking us dead enemy for our hobby, and then there are people who think we are someones with a wholesome & productive hobby. To some people, fishing is a recreation, a fun activity with the bonus of some of thefreshest self-caught seafood to give themselves & their families a nice treat. Nothing more. They will do it as long as it is legal and effective. If you take out the fun part, or the feel-good feeling of providing the freshest seafood as a bonus, most people will rather just buy the stuff from supermarkets or FN sources. So the requirement of fish's willingly biting as a requirement for fishing may not be shared by all. They can try your method, but if it does not produce result as effective as the other legal methods, they will not stick with it. They can reason that for non-biting fish, people use nets, spears, traps, arrows (like the Americans doing that to the leaping carp) & what-have-u. So if DFO allows bb to be a legal means of catching Fraser salmon, and it being the most effective means with a rod and a hook, then it is good enough for most people's idea of fishing. If they release a foul hooked fish which meets with DFO's requirement, then who are we to say he cannot fish this way or that in the finer detail of presentation to the fish. To ask everybody to fish and think like one's ideal way to fish is a waste of time in a free society. The most we can do is to educate and offer alternatives of a better way to fish (according to some), but unless DFO regulates it, people are going to make their choices based on their needs and and based on their own sense of enjoyment of the legal methods. If we can change people like magic, it will be nice. But in a real world, this will never happen. The health & medical folks have been preaching for eons that we should not eat junk foods or risk major health issues. As far as we know, the junk food chains are still expanding. Unless government legislate against junk foods, they will find their way into our stomach. It is just human nature.

And that pretty much goes back to one of my earlier statement.

If you firmly don't believe that, then there isn't a problem for you to solve and the discussion can pretty much end right here.

Easy with the avatar pics Bassy, this is a family site.

[zabber]

Thanks for the insights Rodney!

flossing is SNAGing because the hook set is outside of the mouth

I've hooked just as many, if not more, sockeye in the mouth than outside of the mouth bottom bouncing the bars and both of the springs I've landed as "by catch" were also hooked from the inside out. I may have gotten lucky in that respect, and it may have something to do with only having bb'd the bars a handful of times & having only caught ~40 sox.

the intent to catch fish by attempting to hook them in their mouth instead of luring them to bite.

Even when you are luring fish to bite the intent is still to hook them in the mouth; how else will you reel them in

How do we stop people from catching fish by intentionally foul hooking them in their mouth in systems other than the Fraser River, which can be done with all methods if given the opportunity. Intent, intent, intent, I'm not sure why it is so difficult to recognize and understand the issue. How do you change angling behaviour in small streams when you have accepted the same behaviour to be legally practiced on the Fraser River?

Perhaps this is the problem: you have accepted the ... behaviour to be "legally" practiced on the Fraser River. I've seen many people bonk foul hooked fish out there but all I've ever seen the COs do is check licences and ticket people for fishing past the boundary. By failing to enforce the rules (in this case, foul hooking), you essentially redefine what those rules are. It's kind of like speed limits in that sense: most people know that if you go "20 over" the cops won't bother you, and suddenly 70 is the new 50. Sure, some people will stick to the posted limits but most will do that 70 because it gets them to where they're going faster. Similarly, if "mouth" is considered to be "head" by the authorities, obviously you'll get folks taking advantage of the situation and bagging fish that they've lined and hooked from the outside in.

If you are going to promote it, you should at least recognize potential problems, address them and demonstrate that it can in fact have minimal impact.

Fortunately sockeye short term mortality from bb'ing is only 1-3% Unfortunately, it sounds like (new) fishermen are taking this technique to other systems and even one ugly step further. While AtZ likens the spread of bb'ing as a cancer that is destroying the state of our river fisheries, the fact that talks have taken place but no action has been taken suggests to me that the powers that be don't see this whole state of affairs as being quite so serious. That, or they don't have the resources to implement any potentially effective plans and we can only rely on outside groups to change the state of our fishery.

[Bandit420]

Thanks for the insights Rodney!

I've hooked just as many, if not more, sockeye in the mouth than outside of the mouth bottom bouncing the bars and both of the springs I've landed as "by catch" were also hooked from the inside out. I may have gotten lucky in that respect, and it may have something to do with only having bb'd the bars a handful of times & having only caught ~40 sox.

You missed my point zabber. Float fishng or chucking a spoon the hook is set 99% of the time inside and out.

Even when you are luring fish to bite the intent is still to hook them in the mouth; how else will you reel them in

Perhaps this is the problem: you have accepted the ... behaviour to be "legally" practiced on the Fraser River. I've seen many people bonk foul hooked fish out there but all I've ever seen the COs do is check licences and ticket people for fishing past the boundary. By failing to enforce the rules (in this case, foul hooking), you essentially redefine what those rules are. It's kind of like speed limits in that sense: most people know that if you go "20 over" the cops won't bother you, and suddenly 70 is the new 50. Sure, some people will stick to the posted limits but most will do that 70 because it gets them to where they're going faster. Similarly, if "mouth" is considered to be "head" by the authorities, obviously you'll get folks taking advantage of the situation and bagging fish that they've lined and hooked from the outside in.

Fortunately sockeye short term mortality from bb'ing is only 1-3% Unfortunately, it sounds like (new) fishermen are taking this technique to other systems and even one ugly step further. While AtZ likens the spread of bb'ing as a cancer that is destroying the state of our river fisheries, the fact that talks have taken place but no action has been taken suggests to me that the powers that be don't see this whole state of affairs as being quite so serious. That, or they don't have the resources to implement any potentially effective plans and we can only rely on outside groups to change the state of our fishery.

[chris gadsden]

Thanks for the insights Rodney!

I've hooked just as many, if not more, sockeye in the mouth than outside of the mouth bottom bouncing the bars and both of the springs I've landed as "by catch" were also hooked from the inside out. I may have gotten lucky in that respect, and it may have something to do with only having bb'd the bars a handful of times & having only caught ~40 sox.

Even when you are luring fish to bite the intent is still to hook them in the mouth; how else will you reel them in

Perhaps this is the problem: you have accepted the ... behaviour to be "legally" practiced on the Fraser River. I've seen many people bonk foul hooked fish out there but all I've ever seen the COs do is check licences and ticket people for fishing past the boundary. By failing to enforce the rules (in this case, foul hooking), you essentially redefine what those rules are. It's kind of like speed limits in that sense: most people know that if you go "20 over" the cops won't bother you, and suddenly 70 is the new 50. Sure, some people will stick to the posted limits but most will do that 70 because it gets them to where they're going faster. Similarly, if "mouth" is considered to be "head" by the authorities, obviously you'll get folks taking advantage of the situation and bagging fish that they've lined and hooked from the outside in.

Fortunately sockeye short term mortality from bb'ing is only 1-3% Unfortunately, it sounds like (new) fishermen are taking this technique to other systems and even one ugly step further. While AtZ likens the spread of bb'ing as a cancer that is destroying the state of our river fisheries, the fact that talks have taken place but no action has been taken suggests to me that the powers that be don't see this whole state of affairs as being quite so serious. That, or they don't have the resources to implement any potentially effective plans and we can only rely on outside groups to change the state of our fishery.

The study had some faults re survival rates as they were caught, held in a pen for a period of time, time to regain their strength and then released.
What is their survival rates when caught and then released right away? 
There was some sockeye radio tagged for two years of the 3 year study and then tracked by telemetry stations through their migration up the watershed, not sure if those results have been made available yet. I should try to see if they are.

[liketofish]

Even when released right away, a tired sockeye should just act like any tired animal as a survival instinct - they rest at the calm water until their body regain strength with the lactic acid dissipated. That is pure survival instinct of any migrating animal.

[zabber]

You missed my point zabber. Float fishng or chucking a spoon the hook is set 99% of the time inside and out.

No doubt; in all my years of trout fishing I've only seen one fish foul hooked (in this case it was hooked in the side); that is out of ~500+ fish brought to boat and shore.

However, does that make it a more legitimate form of angling? According to the regs, no. According to some anglers, yes. Does that make it a more enjoyable form of angling? As Rodney said, that will depend on who you ask.

I've had a 20+ sockeye day, and every fish hooked in the head fought like a fish hooked in the mouth. Reeling in a fish every 2-3 casts while standing in waist deep flow and getting a tan made for a good time. Knowing that the fish probably didn't strike the presentation didn't really take the enjoyment out of the experience for me. Sure, if they were hammering a lure it would make for a better time but it was still good. And the 2 bonked were delicious; always tastes better when you catch it yourself

The study had some faults re survival rates as they were caught, held in a pen for a period of time, time to regain their strength and then released.
What is their survival rates when caught and then released right away? 
There was some sockeye radio tagged for two years of the 3 year study and then tracked by telemetry stations through their migration up the watershed, not sure if those results have been made available yet. I should try to see if they are.

These would certainly be interesting results, especially since I've read statements such as "it should be first two fish to the beach, regardless of how they are hooked, as CnRing sockeye is basically killing them anyway; what, with the water temp what it is and all."

Just out of curiosity Chris, do you know how the data on page 23 was compiled? In other words, how was the mortality rate of 30% for coho caught on roe, J-hook bar fishing obtained? Was it produced in the same way as the sockeye data (i.e. 24-hour holding in net pens after being caught)? Thanks in advance.

[Bandit420]

No doubt; in all my years of trout fishing I've only seen one fish foul hooked (in this case it was hooked in the side); that is out of ~500+ fish brought to boat and shore.

However, does that make it a more legitimate form of angling? According to the regs, no. According to some anglers, yes. Does that make it a more enjoyable form of angling? As Rodney said, that will depend on who you ask.

I've had a 20+ sockeye day, and every fish hooked in the head fought like a fish hooked in the mouth. Reeling in a fish every 2-3 casts while standing in waist deep flow and getting a tan made for a good time. Knowing that the fish probably didn't strike the presentation didn't really take the enjoyment out of the experience for me. Sure, if they were hammering a lure it would make for a better time but it was still good. And the 2 bonked were delicious; always tastes better when you catch it yourself

All flossing is doiing is harvesting, not fishing. Fishing is tricking the fish to bite. Ive had a 20+ sockeye day to on the vedder all caught short floating and everysingle fish is tricked and inhales my bait. So dont call yourself a fisherman when youre basically commercial fishing for sockeye or chinook. Your mother would be very proud of you!

These would certainly be interesting results, especially since I've read statements such as "it should be first two fish to the beach, regardless of how they are hooked, as CnRing sockeye is basically killing them anyway; what, with the water temp what it is and all."

Just out of curiosity Chris, do you know how the data on page 23 was compiled? In other words, how was the mortality rate of 30% for coho caught on roe, J-hook bar fishing obtained? Was it produced in the same way as the sockeye data (i.e. 24-hour holding in net pens after being caught)? Thanks in advance.

[Rodney]

Bandit420, when you're quoting someone in the post, write your replies outside the [ quote ] [ /quote ] codes so they are not embedded in the quote. This way it's much easier to differentiate your reply to the original post.

[EZ_Rolling]

Should be good now Rod he made his 50 posts probably the last we hear from him

[Rodney]

Should be good now Rod he made his 50 posts probably the last we hear from him

Bandit is already a subscriber so post count is not a concern for him, at least I hope he knows that.

[canso]

I've had a 20+ sockeye day, and every fish hooked in the head fought like a fish hooked in the mouth. Reeling in a fish every 2-3 casts while standing in waist deep flow and getting a tan made for a good time.

I thought this was a harvest
Get your 2 socks and leave.
That’s disgusting

[Rodney]

While it is excellent to see a study conducted on the catch and release mortality of Fraser River salmon, one should be cautiously critical on the results by considering the followings.

Catch and release mortality depends on water temperature, fight time and cortisol level. What this study has determined is the short term mortality of fish that have been caught and kept in condition that is a bit different to what they would endure in reality. In all studies, there are always errors so findings can only represent what really happens to a certain degree. What these results demonstrate is that mortality is relatively low within the first 24 hours after these fish are caught and kept in waters with minimal current. Does it demonstrate that released fish can successfully reach their spawning ground once released? Furthermore, how does water temperature affect the mortality? These still need to be determined. The Freshwater Fisheries Society of BC has recently completely a three-year catch and release mortality study on stocked trout in lakes. The study determined that the average mortality, after fish are kept and observed for a week, is 11% and increases significantly when water temperature is above 13C.

While the Fraser River salmon catch and release study has concluded that the mortality to be relatively low, anglers should not take that information and partake this fishery as a catch and release fishery. Whether you're flossing, or barfishing, you should consider to stop fishing once they have retained their quota of fish. These are my recommendations of course and not regulations, so whether you wish to do that is ultimately up to you. Is it good that participants decide to retain two sockeye salmon then continue fishing by releasing more sockeye salmon until a chinook salmon is retained? Will fish released actually make it to their spawning ground and still manage to reproduce successfully? Time will tell. In the end, this is the resource for you to enjoy and protect for future enjoyment. We can continue questioning whether fish migrating in highly stressful condition should be caught and released, or we can play safe and not ending up asking a familiar age old question - "Why didn't they think of that?"

[Athezone]

Well just back from spending the weekend with friends and relatives up in Hope and catching a few sockeye (safely released) and bonking a few springs. Could'nt of asked for a better weekend as we left on Friday at noon so we had lots of time to recreate, get our fill of the sun and bounce up some Big Boy's, which we did.

Brought two home myself, a 15 and a 21lber, both red's and saw tons caught by friends. Sorry I could'nt hook up with you liketofish. I used your e-mail (it didn't work) to see if you wanted to join us as I could of showed you a spot a hell of a lot better than the Scale Bar. My sister drops us off and picks us up as soon as we phone her so we have to walk very little. We never had to go in the water once. Oh well, maybe next time liketofish if you're around and interested.

Not going to make this into a very detailed report but we did have a great time, everyone was extremely sociable as everyone always is there and we saw lot's of fish caught and kept. Deep frying some red spring as I type, or at least the wife is. Hey, I caught it and filleted it.

 Good Fishing All !!!

[Bandit420]

Bandit is already a subscriber so post count is not a concern for him, at least I hope he knows that.

Thank you Rod I am fully aware of the post count and I also know that a majority of people who dont subscribe, become a troll after there 50 posts. I subscribed because your site is based on ethical fishing and teaching new anglers too fish not harvest because going fishing is my anti-deppresant and coming home with a fish is a bonus in my books. In the last year, ive heard alot more about this site from new anglers on the flow, I looked into your site and supported your cause. Ethical , legal fishing.

[Bandit420]

Bandit420, when you're quoting someone in the post, write your replies outside the [ quote ] [ /quote ] codes so they are not embedded in the quote. This way it's much easier to differentiate your reply to the original post.

sorry about that. Im on my phone the majority of the time and dont realise.