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[adriaticum]

I think you guys' arguments are not even touching the core of the problem.

Which is.
Greed.

Most successful countires in the world today understand one thing.
Love your neighbour as much as you love yourself.

North America and China are both great in exploitation of their own people.
They just do it differently and because it has become standard people don't see it as such.
Industrial elites in China and North America could give a rat's a.s about people in their own communities.
If in small town you own a factory that employs and provides livelihood to 50% of the town, once you move your factory you have devastated the community.
You don't give a damn because you will move out of the community.
That's how so many towns have been ruined. And through over exploitation of resources.
Once the world opens the door to you, you want to feed the world.

My hope is that the small movement towards localized economies is going to take root and people are going to understand that cheaper doesn't always mean cheaper because it's going to cost you everything in the long run.

[alwaysfishn]

Let's breakdown what these big bad companies are........Companies are "machines" built in order to provide an investment return for their shareholders. The shareholder/investors are ordinary folks like us who own shares in our RRSP's, pensions and savings plans. If our investments don't grow it will effect the type of retirement income we end up with. If an investor is losing money on their investment they need the company to do what ever is necessary to cut their losses.

Call it greed, or call it good investing, it's a good thing. It's what drives the very jobs we have, our lifestyle and the wealth we build. Along the way there are hopefully more winners than losers.

I kinda get tired of hearing about the big bad companies. As long as a company is making money it will exist. If a company gets shut down it's because it wasn't going to last anyway due to the fact it was likely losing money....

[adriaticum]

Let's breakdown what these big bad companies are........Companies are "machines" built in order to provide an investment return for their shareholders. The shareholder/investors are ordinary folks like us who own shares in our RRSP's, pensions and savings plans. If our investments don't grow it will effect the type of retirement income we end up with. If an investor is losing money on their investment they need the company to do what ever is necessary to cut their losses.

Call it greed, or call it good investing, it's a good thing. It's what drives the very jobs we have, our lifestyle and the wealth we build. Along the way there are hopefully more winners than losers.

I kinda get tired of hearing about the big bad companies. As long as a company is making money it will exist. If a company gets shut down it's because it wasn't going to last anyway due to the fact it was likely losing money....

alwaysfishin,
You are a child of modern economics. I don't doubt your knowledge.
It's just that modern economics is a crock and we are all being sold ideas that, I believe, are false.
But if you are baby boomer, you've lived in the wealthies generation and done well for yourself.

[Ed]

Ed, what do you do for a living?
Because there are drug users in every group/industry be it labour financial or anything even immigrants.
Your comments are not only presumptuous, they are offensive. Please stop generalizing any group (ethnic, class, etc)
If you knew what it means to be a true Canadian you would understand this is the reason many "Chinese minerS" or any other immigrants come to Canada. To not be judged by there class or ethnic backgrounds.

Here, in Canada everybody is set as equal under the law.

And just so we are clear, immigrants are paid the same in the oil Nd gas industry as Canadians. 

Like i said in my post , there is a good portion of people in the industry (Not everybody) that end up with drug/alcohol abuse. I'm not sure how you view drugs but in my mind it is a problem. Im sure there are drug users in every type of profession but it's actually a growing problem in the oil rigs/mines. Personally living in beautiful Vancouver, it would be pretty depressing having to work at the oil rigs/mines.

I think providing a better lifestyle for these miner's families is the main concern. Im pretty sure worrying about being judged isn't their main concern.

I'm not sure if there are foreign workers in the oil/gas industry but these foreign miners are actually getting paid less than other Canadians. This news source says they are getting paid 10-17 dollar per hour less.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/11/25/bc-mine-closure-coleman.html

I'm not sure what world you live in but thinking that everybody is treated equal because it is set in our "laws" is just pure ignorance. It's still true that in many workplaces, even though companies aren't allowed to openly discriminate, there are still salary differences between even male/female. I remember a few years back one of my professors(woman) told us that she applied for a job at UBC but in the end, a man was hired and was given a higher pay than what she was offered.

[Ed]

Actually, it was the local Chinese who imported the raw opium for processing in their opium factories here in BC that supplied the opium to the parlors, the community and the railway crews. It's well documented because it was legal and they paid licence fees to the BC government. The Chinese have never had a problem exploiting their own citizens and apparently they still don't.

And I wonder how Chinese people got exposed to opium....go read about the Opium Wars. Chinese people during that time didn't have too many "rights" let alone import goods ? I wonder who gave the go ahead to import opium....

There are bad people in every race/culture/etc. But history tells us that White people love exploiting other races and some "rednecks" still do.

[Ed]

I think you guys' arguments are not even touching the core of the problem.

Which is.
Greed.

Most successful countires in the world today understand one thing.
Love your neighbour as much as you love yourself.

North America and China are both great in exploitation of their own people.
They just do it differently and because it has become standard people don't see it as such.
Industrial elites in China and North America could give a rat's a.s about people in their own communities.
If in small town you own a factory that employs and provides livelihood to 50% of the town, once you move your factory you have devastated the community.
You don't give a damn because you will move out of the community.
That's how so many towns have been ruined. And through over exploitation of resources.
Once the world opens the door to you, you want to feed the world.

My hope is that the small movement towards localized economies is going to take root and people are going to understand that cheaper doesn't always mean cheaper because it's going to cost you everything in the long run.

I think you pretty much just explained the whole idea of capitalism! Before when USA 's economy was mainly based on manufacturing and made things, it pushed them to take over the UK as the world's superpower. Now because of globalization + improvements in technology (internet) etc, many of these jobs have moved offshore. A great example is Detroit, once the automobile capital of the world. Now these jobs are in China and other countries that have cheaper labour.

But in the case of the mining industry, these companies are probably hirnig foreign workers because it will lower costs so they can be more competative with other companies around the world. Increasing the salary of these jobs will prevent companies from hiring more (more expensive) therefore less jobs available. We are going through a recesssion right now and if these companies go under, we could lose even more jobs or else the government wouldn't be allowing the idea of foreign workers.

The only way your hope will be true is if communities isolate themselves from the rest of the world therefore taking away competition.  But it's pretty hard to do that with the technology that is available to us today. It's also important that you dont forget that we pay a lower price as consumers too when companies have lower costs even though they are also making a bigger profit margin as well.
Maybe it's time for socialism?

[brownmancheng]

Wow, thank you for your refreshing views.

[adriaticum]

I think you pretty much just explained the whole idea of capitalism! Before when USA 's economy was mainly based on manufacturing and made things, it pushed them to take over the UK as the world's superpower. Now because of globalization + improvements in technology (internet) etc, many of these jobs have moved offshore. A great example is Detroit, once the automobile capital of the world. Now these jobs are in China and other countries that have cheaper labour.

But in the case of the mining industry, these companies are probably hirnig foreign workers because it will lower costs so they can be more competative with other companies around the world. Increasing the salary of these jobs will prevent companies from hiring more (more expensive) therefore less jobs available. We are going through a recesssion right now and if these companies go under, we could lose even more jobs or else the government wouldn't be allowing the idea of foreign workers.

The only way your hope will be true is if communities isolate themselves from the rest of the world therefore taking away competition.  But it's pretty hard to do that with the technology that is available to us today. It's also important that you dont forget that we pay a lower price as consumers too when companies have lower costs even though they are also making a bigger profit margin as well.
Maybe it's time for socialism?

Ed, you hit the nail on the head with the isolation. Best economies today try to guard themselves from fluctuations in the world economy. Best are the most stable economies. I don't mean the biggest.
You can't isolate yourself completely but you can draw on your strengths. You need to trade and be a citizen of the world, but you need to make sure that your citizens are strong economically.
I would rather call it localization, than isolation.
You have to think locally. Period.
I don't think it's time for socialism. Socialism is not based on reality, it's based on a sci-fi.
Consumer education is most important.

[Ed]

Ed, you hit the nail on the head with the isolation. Best economies today try to guard themselves from fluctuations in the world economy. Best are the most stable economies. I don't mean the biggest.
You can't isolate yourself completely but you can draw on your strengths. You need to trade and be a citizen of the world, but you need to make sure that your citizens are strong economically.
I would rather call it localization, than isolation.
You have to think locally. Period.
I don't think it's time for socialism. Socialism is not based on reality, it's based on a sci-fi.
Consumer education is most important.

I agree with you that some form of isolation or localization is important for a healthy economy. Without some sort of government intervention the idea of a completely free market is rather scary. Many developing countries have created trade barriers/duties on certain industries while they are still underdeveloped and slowly cut down on intervention as the industry matures. Even in China today, foreign goods that are imported are often subject to higher taxes which promotes your idea of purchasing local goods. A pretty good example is the automobile industry in China. Cars that are made outside of China cost 1.5 times - 2 times more than a BMW made in the Chinese factories.

Personally I think the biggest weakness is Canada's economy also because we have a relatively low population. It's definetly one of the best features of Canada but at the same time we dont have the labour force to support various types of industries to be self dependent. We have also created a dependence on selling our resources since Canada is considered a "staples" economy which in the long run doesn't look too promising.

I believe that Canada today have more socialist features than even socialist countries like China. Public healthcare, education, and etc are some of the fine features we have in Canada. Also the rich gets taxed a lot more in Canada than our USA neighbors.

[brownmancheng]

While I will say I agree a local based economy may be the best option. Although we would have to Learn to do without many luxuries ( bananas come to mind).  Supporting foreign workers doing local jobs cheaper is all part of globalization.

[adriaticum]

While I will say I agree a local based economy may be the best option. Although we would have to Learn to do without many luxuries ( bananas come to mind).  Supporting foreign workers doing local jobs cheaper is all part of globalization.

Local economy doesn't mean you don't import and buy things you don't have and can't produce.
Local economy means that you don't import what you can produce just because it's little cheaper. And you stimulate producers to produce more by reducing reduntant imports.
If we didn't import lemons and the market was scarce, I bet you there would be many new lemon producers. And they would have viable businesses because they would make money.
It also means you eat seasonal food. Fruits out of season are awful.
It also means you don't import cheap slave labour so you can make more money.
Everyone in the society, from the rich to the poor have to think local, otherwise it doesn't work.
Unfortunately these changes can't be all made overnight and everyone is affraid of them.
That's why politicians don't even bother implementing and testing new ideas.

North american farmers are in trouble and need help. They will not get it from the government or the biotech industry. They need our (buyers) help.
Subsidies are also killing the market. Subsidies should be illegal. They devalue goods and make us forget the value of things.
Government destroyed the North american farmer by giving them financial injection and subsidising them for doing a bad job or producing what wasn't in demand.
Now majority of the farmers are addicts and depend on the government handouts for survival.

anyway, this is a fishing web site  

[skaha]

--I think some are forgetting about the Social Contract with these companies.. They preach giving lower taxes, less government and reduced
-- royalties in exchange for providing jobs..
--Our BC and Fed government have bent over giving these companies what they want... all I'm asking is that the companies at least live up to their part of the bargain.
--I find it amazing that when we had rules... like on a tree farm license you used to have to mill the wood you cut and the allowable cut was determined on a renewable basis and must be balanced within 5 years... we had a mill here in Okanagan "Falls... once these rules changed.. that is a transfer of the allowable annual cut to another mill in kamloops the Okanagan Falls mill closed..never to be seen again.

[Ed]

Local economy doesn't mean you don't import and buy things you don't have and can't produce.
Local economy means that you don't import what you can produce just because it's little cheaper. And you stimulate producers to produce more by reducing reduntant imports.
If we didn't import lemons and the market was scarce, I bet you there would be many new lemon producers. And they would have viable businesses because they would make money.
It also means you eat seasonal food. Fruits out of season are awful.
It also means you don't import cheap slave labour so you can make more money.
Everyone in the society, from the rich to the poor have to think local, otherwise it doesn't work.
Unfortunately these changes can't be all made overnight and everyone is affraid of them.
That's why politicians don't even bother implementing and testing new ideas.

North american farmers are in trouble and need help. They will not get it from the government or the biotech industry. They need our (buyers) help.
Subsidies are also killing the market. Subsidies should be illegal. They devalue goods and make us forget the value of things.
Government destroyed the North american farmer by giving them financial injection and subsidising them for doing a bad job or producing what wasn't in demand.
Now majority of the farmers are addicts and depend on the government handouts for survival.

anyway, this is a fishing web site  

Well everything in the environment are somewhat connected with each other, whether or not its farming/mining/lumber/fishing, so its interesting to hear from different point of views. I think being part of the WTO, prevents us from creating regulations in trade. Unless offcoarse in the example of beef, if there is a ecoli or mad cow outbreak then countries have the right to stop trade. I think in reality we either be part of the globalized economy or decide to have Protectionism/isolationism/etc. The biggest risk of Canada doing this unlike the USA (when they did it in the early 1900s), is that we dont make anything. From electronics to automobile (parts like tires, etc) to even clothing etc, we rely heavily on imports. Also the costs of creating new industries are also really high therefore governments tend to stay away from that. There have been examples of countries in south america that tried to create new industires with government subsidies. The end result was that these companies ended up innefficient and once the subsidies were removed they quickly went bankrupt. Also with a work force of around 18 million people, its going to be really tough to determine a fair salary (with our canadian living standards) or to even have enough people work the jobs to be self dependent.



I totally agree with you that subsidies ruined our farms. One of the great benefits of living in Canada where government will help where is needed but the end result was that it got taken advantage of.

[skaha]

--I agree we don't make a lot of things.. but we wooda cooda shooda... we had major clothing manufacturing business in Winnipeg... we had White trucks manufactured in Kelowna... we had several modular home manufacturers in Penticton...We had a major Mill in Okanagan falls.... we had Farwest clothing manufactured in Vernon...we had a glass factory that not only supplied wine bottles to local wineries but purchased glass from local recyclers.

--They were making money and it was circulated locally and produced fair wages for the workers and the managers... but it wasn't enough perceived profit for some manager/owners there was no value given to strong local economy steady growth and long term commitments... they needed exponential growth to match the Ponzi scheme Madov profit models that at the time many were gauging their business success against.

--the timber was tied to the mills... they were making money...if they could not make the kind of profit they wanted they should have sold the mill to a company that was willing to follow the rules and still make money.... instead they used their influence on government to have the rules changed so they could sell their logs without the expense of milling it here.

--some companies... oddly enough ones that did not have the advantage of a Tree farm license.. actually did use HST windfall money to upgrade and make their mills more profitable and stay in for the long term.
 

--

[alwaysfishn]

--some companies... oddly enough ones that did not have the advantage of a Tree farm license.. actually did use HST windfall money to upgrade and make their mills more profitable and stay in for the long term.

Are you suggesting the HST was actually good for jobs?