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[dnibbles]

Why don't you put some numbers up or a link at least.... 

Because I'm not going to do your homework for you. Here's a hint: Upper Adams sockeye 2004. Go see how recent harvest management strategies on that cycle line worked out. You should have a fairly recent point of reference, since 2012 would be the grandchildren from those fish.

[shuswapsteve]

Because I'm not going to do your homework for you. Here's a hint: Upper Adams sockeye 2004. Go see how recent harvest management strategies on that cycle line worked out. You should have a fairly recent point of reference, since 2012 would be the grandchildren from those fish.

Ah..you are going straight for the jugular with that example...lol.  I am getting a good laugh at reading AF's interpretation of Cohen right now and his praise for Morton.  Whatever happened to her anyway?  Ask a few questions and then she vanishes.  Oh yeah...she is too busy...LMAO. 

[blaydRnr]

Obviously tunnel vision is not the reason I oppose open pen feedlots!

i'm sure it's not... but the ideology and strong anti sentiments towards a future necessity like salmon farming has inadvertently misguided your good intent.

[alwaysfishn]

Because I'm not going to do your homework for you.

I'm not asking for you to do homework for me.... However I was challenging your comments below.

I have this sneaking suspicion that you may not believe stats presented to support the claim of harvest mismanagement......

[alwaysfishn]

i'm sure it's not... but the ideology and strong anti sentiments towards a future necessity like salmon farming has inadvertently misguided your good intent.

I've never argued against "a future necessity like salmon farming".  All I've ever argued for is the necessity of removing the feedlots from our coastal waters, which would immediately remove a major risk to the wild salmon. Then we can focus on the other issues affecting the survival of wild salmon, which will take much longer than ripping out the feedlots.

[absolon]

People have been trying to have the salmon farms removed for over twenty-five years starting with commercial fishermen; Morton is Johnny-come-lately to the party. Perhaps it's time to focus on something that will do some good.

[Dave]

People have been trying to have the salmon farms removed for over twenty-five years starting with commercial fishermen; Morton is Johnny-come-lately to the party. Perhaps it's time to focus on something that will do some good.

Like overharvesting by all user groups ...

[dnibbles]

I'm not asking for you to do homework for me.... However I was challenging your comments below.

Which I provided a specific example of over harvest decimating a salmon stock. Also see Strait of Georgia coho fishery in the early to mid 90's, Lower Georgia Strait (Cowichan River) Chinook harvested at a 70%+ rate up until a couple years back, spring run Chinook in the upper Fraser harvested at very high rates up to 2009, Rivers/Smith Inlet sockeye back in the 40s and 50s, all specific examples of poor harvest management practices having acute and detrimental effects on salmon stocks.


Deflect at your leisure.

[alwaysfishn]

Which I provided a specific example of over harvest decimating a salmon stock. Also see Strait of Georgia coho fishery in the early to mid 90's, Lower Georgia Strait (Cowichan River) Chinook harvested at a 70%+ rate up until a couple years back, spring run Chinook in the upper Fraser harvested at very high rates up to 2009, Rivers/Smith Inlet sockeye back in the 40s and 50s, all specific examples of poor harvest management practices having acute and detrimental effects on salmon stocks.


Deflect at your leisure.

Thanks for providing a few example of "over harvest" or perhaps just miscalculations of the salmon runs in those particular years. I don't think your examples demonstrate a consistent practice of "harvest mismanagement". DFO can be criticized about many things however they do seem to put a significant effort into determining salmon run sizes.

We've all heard this harvest mismanagement argument before and it's typically used to divert attention from the feedlot risks.

[dnibbles]

Thanks for providing a few example of "over harvest" or perhaps just miscalculations of the salmon runs in those particular years. I don't think your examples demonstrate a consistent practice of "harvest mismanagement". DFO can be criticized about many things however they do seem to put a significant effort into determining salmon run sizes.

We've all heard this harvest mismanagement argument before and it's typically used to divert attention from the feedlot risks.

Bahahahaha!!!!! This is classic! OK, one little hint to get you started big guy :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overexploitation#Fisheries
Please continue to enlighten us with more of your in-depth, first hand knowledge of how pacific salmon fisheries are conducted. I've given several examples specific to both year and stock in which overexploitation has contributed to temporary or persistent decreases in stock abundance, and occasionally productivity for several decades, not just one or two years. Read between the lines......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioYJNjFBs24

[alwaysfishn]

Bahahahaha!!!!! This is classic! OK, one little hint to get you started big guy :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overexploitation#Fisheries
Please continue to enlighten us with more of your in-depth, first hand knowledge of how pacific salmon fisheries are conducted. I've given several examples specific to both year and stock in which overexploitation has contributed to temporary or persistent decreases in stock abundance, and occasionally productivity. This may have provided some hints as to the source of where I have formed my opinions on this subject, although you seem to be struggling on reading between the lines at the fairly clear inferences present. Is it that I am in bed with the feedlots, or...........

It's a rather large leap to suggest that the Coastal wild salmon numbers are down because of "over exploitation". By definition over exploitation is a willful act and although there have been incidents of miscalculation, there is minimal support (if any) for an argument of over exploitation. You need to give the feedlots credit for their contribution to the decline of the wild salmon.

I didn't take the time to view the youtube as I didn't think the Simpsons likely have a lot to say in support of your argument of "over exploitation"

[blaydRnr]

Thanks for providing a few example of "over harvest" or perhaps just miscalculations of the salmon runs in those particular years. I don't think your examples demonstrate a consistent practice of "harvest mismanagement". DFO can be criticized about many things however they do seem to put a significant effort into determining salmon run sizes.

We've all heard this harvest mismanagement argument before and it's typically used to divert attention from the feedlot risks.

no such thing as a miscalculation of runs based on migratory history...especially when harvest quotas are being set on guess work, however, when you have unexpected numbers like we did back in 2010 and ceilings were being raised without regard to consequences  ...it leads me to believe somewhere down the line, management was non existent...who's to say that year wasn't a combination of 2 cycles/generations that overlapped and inter connected at some point of migration?

over harvesting and mismanagement is the only thing in this industry that has been proven to be a factor in our wild stock decimation...not only with salmon, but other species like the atlantic cod.

  

[alwaysfishn]

no such thing as a miscalculation of runs based on migratory history...especially when harvest quotas are being set on guess work, however, when you have unexpected numbers like we did back in 2010 and ceilings were being raised without regard to consequences  ...it leads me to believe somewhere down the line, management was non existent...who's to say that year wasn't a combination of 2 cycles/generations that overlapped and inter connected at some point of migration?

over harvesting and mismanagement is the only thing in this industry that has been proven to be a factor in our wild stock decimation...not only with salmon, but other species like the atlantic cod.
 

I can see you are convinced....   

Your statement "over harvesting and mismanagement is the only thing in this industry that has been proven to be a factor in our wild stock decimation.." is over the top. It's just more feedlot rhetoric.

[dnibbles]

You started with this question,

We rely on DFO to manage the salmon fisheries and as a result we assume that they are not allowing over harvest. Do you have some stats to support your position that they are allowing over harvest?

to which I gave very specific answers with examples. While you may choose to reject them as being in support of a position you disagree with, they are pieces of specific evidence that can be researched to form your own opinion. You then ask me to:

 

You need to give the feedlots credit for their contribution to the decline of the wild salmon.

I will consider this when you can provide just one specific example in BC of a stock/species/run/year that has seen the declines such as those I identify above, in which the causatory agent can be directly identified as aquaculture. Just one example, that's it. Should be easy enough, hey?

You should have a quick peek at the video and guess which one you are lol.

[dnibbles]

no such thing as a miscalculation of runs based on migratory history...especially when harvest quotas are being set on guess work, however, when you have unexpected numbers like we did back in 2010 and ceilings were being raised without regard to consequences  ...it leads me to believe somewhere down the line, management was non existent...who's to say that year wasn't a combination of 2 cycles/generations that overlapped and inter connected at some point of migration?

over harvesting and mismanagement is the only thing in this industry that has been proven to be a factor in our wild stock decimation...not only with salmon, but other species like the atlantic cod.

  

Ok, this is getting a little bit non-sensical on both sides. Harvest levels are definitely not set based on "guess work".
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/mplans/2012/smon/smon-sc-cs-2012-eng.pdf

UNfortunately, salmon are tough to accurately count when they're swimming in the ocean, so "mis calculation" as you call it does occur. If it occurs in the wrong direction and harvest rates weren't conservative enough, you end up with over harvest (i.e. higher than intended). In a productive freshwater and marine environment this may not be a problem; when it's not, you can get collapses.

High exploitation rates are not the only thing that have been proven to cause declines in abundance. Impacts on freshwater habitat, increasing water temperatures, hydroelectricity projects have also been shown to directly impact salmon stocks. Aquaculture has been suspected of causing serious harm, but not proven yet (as per Cohen).